Living Our Beliefs: Exploring Faith & Religion in Daily Life

Bonus. Building Trust Across Faiths (Lindsay Simmonds and Julie Siddiqi)

• Meli Solomon, the Talking with God Project • Season 4 • Episode 99

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Episode 99. Bonus  

For this Bonus episode, I’ve invited two British women, Lindsay Simmonds and Julie Siddiqi, both PhDs, to talk about their interfaith friendship and the public facing work they’ve done since Hamas’ attack on Israel on 7 Oct. 2023. Lindsay is an Orthodox Jew and Julie is Muslim. The fact of their religious identities and deep practice is noteworthy and relevant, as the attack and subsequent war, have proven polarizing, straining the already challenging work of bridging religious differences between Jews and Muslims. Lindsay and Julie offer an inspiring example of possibility, showing us the path to connection, communication, and healing, while not shying away from the challenges. Given the long standing and apparent intransigence of the conflict, this seemed a good time for some hope.


Highlights: 

  • Intersection of deep faith practice and interfaith work.
  • Organizing inclusive events amidst tension.
  • Impact and significance of their work.
  • The role of space, gender, and representation.
  • Trivializing women's impactful initiatives.
  • Sustaining hope and setting intentions for the future.

 

Bios:  

Dr. Lindsay Simmonds is a Research Fellow at the London School of Jewish Studies (LSJS) where she has lectured for 20+ years. She recently worked as a Researcher at the London School of Economics (LSE), UK, working on Women of Faith and Peacebuilding.

Lindsay is very active in local interfaith work. She has five adult children and five grandchildren, and she promotes women's participation in her local orthodox Jewish community in London. 


Dr. Julie Siddiqi MBE is a mentor, consultant and gender equality campaigner with a focus on interfaith relations, applying that to social work. She has 25+ years of experience in community work predominantly in the Muslim community as well as in interfaith work. Julie is a qualified Life Coach. She was awarded an MBE in the Queen’s Birthday Honours List of 2020 and an Honorary Doctorate from the University of Middlesex. She chose Islam in 1995 and is married with four children. 


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The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project.

Bonus. Lindsay Simmonds and Julie Siddiqi transcript

Building Trust Across Faiths

 

Méli Solomon [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more, check out the link in the show notes. For this bonus episode, I've invited two British women, Lindsay Simmonds and Julie Siddiqi, both PhDs, to talk about their interfaith friendship and the public facing work they've done since Hamas' attack on Israel on 7 October 2023. Lindsay is an Orthodox Jew, and Julie is Muslim.

 

Méli [00:01:00]:

The fact of their religious identities and deep practice is noteworthy and relevant as the attack and subsequent war have proven polarizing, straining the already challenging work of bridging religious differences between Jews and Muslims. Lindsay and Julie offer an inspiring example of possibility, showing us the path to connection, communication, and healing while not shying away from the challenges. Given the long standing and apparent intransigence of the conflict, this seemed a good time for some hope. And now let's turn to our conversation. Hello, Julie and Lindsay. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I'm really happy to have you on today.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:01:48]:

Lovely to be here.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:01:50]:

Really great to be here. Thank you.

 

Méli [00:01:53]:

So you are both really committed to uplifting women, and you have deep experience, Julie, in the interfaith and community organizing within the Muslim community in the UK, and Lindsay in research and education within the Jewish community also in the UK. We are focusing here today on your friendship and the public facing events that you've done together. So I'd like to start with just how did you meet and how did all of this activity develop? Lindsay, you want to, launch in?

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:02:35]:

Sure. Julie and I met, many years ago now whilst both participating in an interfaith kind of network program. Although, of course, we were both really interested in the work being done and very passionate and committed to that work, we also we found in each other a sort of kindred spirit and we became friends. At first kind of gentle friends And then that friendship just persisted and blossomed, and then we invested more time and effort and energy and joy into it. I suppose, not instead of, but in addition to us collaborating and working so much together, we also spend and try to spend a significant amount of time just enjoying each other's company.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:03:30]:

Yeah. I would add to that. So we met, as Lindsay said, on the leadership program. And even as she was speaking then, I was remembering it. A really important part of that program was also about building relationships. So it was quite a deliberate the way that was done. So I pay credit to those who organized that program because we were learning about leadership together and learning about each other's scriptures. But there was also very much an emphasis and an encouragement for people to develop relationships and to continue those after the program, which some did, some didn't, but we certainly did. But I also wanted to just mention that before that program, I'd seen Lindsay speak at an interfaith event that was about, gender inequalities in faith communities.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:04:20]:

She had was talking there among others, And I remember finding her contribution and others as well quite moving at the time because they spoke to a part of me that hadn't heard people like Lindsay and others speak to before, which was this whole issue around gender, faith teachings, how they're misused, how we as women, often felt like we're sidelined, how the faith actually teach about gender equality, but the way it plays out is different. And it was the first time that I'd been at an event like that with people from different faiths speaking to me in such a clear way. And so we didn't really interact that much there. But when I met her on the program, it kind of brought all of that back for me. And one of the other things that we hit it off with was that whole issue around feminism, faith. What does that look like? What happens when we're not happy within our own communities? Does that mean that we have to leave and go to a different part of the community? Or why should we because we're comfortable, but we just don't like the way our teachings are misused? I found Lindsay and others in her part of the Jewish community tackling that stuff. I found that to be fascinating, and that, I think, is why also our friendship got off to a good start, I would say.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:05:50]:

I see that Julie dived right in there to all the really meaty, juicy conversation that we had. And I I just wanted to say that, again, it's one thing to be on a leadership program and it's one thing to be considered, I suppose in a sense by those not of our faith initially as leaders in our community in different, you know, in different facets whether it be activists or educators in whatever capacity. I want activists or educators in whatever capacity. I want to reiterate this even though Julia said it, one of the things I think that made us firm friends was our ability to connect at that very deep level which are our commitment to faith and at the very same time those struggles within it, the complexities that we deal with. And these are not sort of, I mean they are theological complexities but they are everyday struggles. They're not something that you, you know, necessarily just write about as you mentioned earlier in a research article or teach about in a lecture. They're the stuff of life and I think that's why perhaps it's persisted because we're still, both of us, you know very committed to our own faith communities, you know as well as all the other work we do. And within that you know these trials and tribulations as well as all the joys is the stuff that we face, you know, and talk about and moan about, every day.

 

Méli [00:07:21]:

I'm struck by this mixture of deep faith commitment to your own Muslim and Jewish, communities, and yet also connecting across those differences. I think within the interfaith work, there's often a debate about does it water down your faith? Does it put your faith at risk? Is it better to be less observant so that there are fewer friction points? Or is it actually better to be quite deeply entrenched in your communities so that you have a deeper knowledge and a deeper faith practice? There's probably no perfect way, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that dynamic. Julie, you wanna start?

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:08:14]:

Yeah. I mean, I can say for absolute certain that for me, with our friendship and also with others that I have with other people, it absolutely does reinforce my own faith when I'm with good people. And I love talking to those people about their own dynamics within their places of worship or the families or how does stuff play out for them. The good and the difficult and the messy. I feel very connected to somebody who lives their faith in the way Lindsay does, because it's not it's not always easy to keep up with everything and to juggle everything and to, you know, to stick within the rules. And I really do do admire that. And we just have created a safety within our friendship. That means that I can also ask her the difficult stuff about how it plays out or the detail or yeah.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:09:19]:

But what does that mean, or why do you do it that way? And and I can also be honest about my own stuff, my own shortcomings, where I'm feeling lazy about doing something, but I kind of have to do it anyway. You know, we can kind of do all of that. And, I think that it it's because it's built on a trust for sure. I put a lot of emphasis in my life on having people that I can trust around me, and so I don't take that lightly. That is definitely what we have. And so it kind of then means that you can pretty much bring up anything because it's not seen as threatening. It's not seen as personal. It's just, feels very comfortable.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:10:03]:

So I really value that, and I love the fact that I've got friends like Lindsay who I can talk about the faith stuff. Because although, you know, there's lots in common, there's also lots that's very different. We can talk about all of that, and I, you know, genuinely learn a lot about myself. Also, when you're with someone who's living their own faith or values out in the way that Lindsay does, but is also real about how hard it all is and juggling and, you know, not not kind of trying to put on a front or a mask in that sense. I love it because it helps me to navigate my own things and what I have to do. If you have good people that you can trust, it really doesn't matter if the differences are are big, which mostly they are in some ways. It's fine because it's built on trust, and it feels safe.

 

Méli [00:10:55]:

Mhmm. Lindsay?

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:10:56]:

First of all, I wanna say thank you to Julie. You know, you don't often sort of self-reflect and, look at yourself in a mirror that way, especially at your own friendship. So it's lovely. Thank you, Jules. I also wanted to say, obviously echoing some of what Julia said, but firstly, I think with regard to other people's commitment, my experience has been both that I really respect other people's commitment and I can understand other people's commitment rather than separate me from them. Actually it endears me to them and I understand them, I don't want to say better, but I understand them because I'm that sort of person too. So it makes sense to me. And the second thing is that I have been in spaces where perhaps there have been no Jews, or no committed Jews, or no Orthodox Jews, or no female Jews, and I have felt that if I'm there as a representative look in the end we only represent ourselves, but when we're sent as representatives I'm trying to think of a space where that has been a stumbling block and it has only brought respect and kindness, I have to say.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:12:05]:

And I think that that deep commitment also is a reflection of you not being superficial. So when you come in you're already saying, hopefully, if you're, if you're able to talk about these things, if you're able to dig deep, if you're able to talk about the ambivalences, the conflicts, the dissonances that sometimes, arise because religions and theologies are complicated things. And so I think that that also, again, not only endears one to another but is is a very honest kind of space to occupy. And I also think and I think this is a bit more recent, certainly in the interfaith world. I would say we've been at it for sort of twenty, twenty five years, but I would definitely say in the last five years there's less of the kind of leave your rucksack with your difficult stuff or your different stuff outside and just bring all the common stuff into the room, all the things you share, and it's really shifted and I'm very positive about that and I think it's absolutely necessary to bring your whole self to the room, bring your whole self to the table, bring your whole self to the discussion, bring your whole self to the argument and I think that that's a much more accurate reflection of the self. I think it's also a more honest depiction of the things that we're thinking and living because we are living different religions. Often we're living different politics, God forbid we should ever talk about that, you know. But we live that stuff and I think it's really important that we're very generous with ourselves and with other people, giving that kind of space.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:13:49]:

And I think lastly the one thing that a really honest French like like all friendships, is that people can hold you to account. Julie and I have been in spaces where, say, somebody's spoken or we've heard an idea or an argument about something. And I've said to Julie, was that okay? You know, what do you think? And she can say, no, Lindsay, it wasn't okay. I think that's inappropriate for this space. Or there was a not listening moment, someone didn't hear. And having someone that you really this friendship becomes interesting for people and they look at it and they inquire about it just because I look the way I do and I'm a Jew and Julie looks the way she does and she's a But in the end, friends come from all different walks of life, and they they cross, they transverse different boundaries and fractures within communities and societies. But in the end, all friends are there to be totally robust and hold people to account. That that's what a friendship does.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:14:54]:

It's that - that's why it works so well.

 

Méli [00:14:58]:

Yeah. Thank you for those words, Lindsay. I I think you've made a really important point that certain differences so in this case, your religious difference can really seem like a critical big block.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:15:14]:

Yes.

 

Méli [00:15:14]:

Whereas both of you are saying, no. That's that's actually not the case. Our commitment to our own religious faith is is something that brings us together, and our willingness and interest in being authentic and bringing our whole selves to the conversation, and over the years developing tremendous trust and understanding has put you now in a really wonderful, I might say enviable position of being able to hold each other to account and to do this public facing work.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:15:55]:

Yes.

 

Méli [00:15:56]:

So let's turn to that. Julie, can you say a little about what sorts of things you've done together and what kicked that off?

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:16:06]:

Yeah. I mean, over the years, we've been involved in things together as a result of the program that we did when we first met, and we've been invited to speak out a few things together. And we've done that throughout all of those years in one way or another, and we've always really enjoyed that. We're both part of a network called Nissan Hashim, which is Jewish and Muslim women coming together through friendship and encouraging them in different parts of the country, in different parts of London to meet, to do things together, to find their common ground or to find their common interests, special interest groups, etcetera. So we're both part of that as well. I think it's fair to say that after the horrors of October 7, Lindsay was one of the first people that I spoke to. It's because of Lindsay and other friends like her that I felt the way I did on the October 7 and felt the pain of how I thought they might be feeling. I'm never gonna claim that I fully knew or still don't fully know how it feels, but I knew that it would be very, very painful and difficult, and there'd be a lot of fear and a lot of, you know, people just thrown into something they weren't expecting.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:17:26]:

And I fully appreciated that. And I remember I mean, I was away at the time actually when it happened, and I remember the conversation that we had. I remember where I was. I think I'll always remember it. I found it very just reassuring, and I felt like I could breathe a bit better once we'd spoken because we were just able to do what we always do, which is just be very honest and how we're feeling and all of that. In that conversation, I remember saying to Lindsay, I think we need to do something. We did go on to do something very public, and we can talk about that. But I just think even when I reflect back on it, because we are doing that now, reflecting and thinking, and I did say that in that very first conversation.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:18:09]:

It just sort of came out. I think we need to do something, and I felt able to. Now she could have easily said, no. In the end, we did, and we'll talk about it. But I think it just does speak to this whole thing around trust and the fact that we were able to have that conversation, and I definitely felt much lighter in a way. Obviously, the whole thing then and until now is very, very heavy. But I did definitely feel better having spoken to Lindsay, and that connection felt very important. Because neither of us feel that the other has to explain, justify, be responsible for the horrors of whatever's happened and whatever's continued to happen.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:18:58]:

I think that because we have the trust and the, you know, it's it's much deeper than that. So we just don't do that. I just wish a lot more people would be able to do what we can do. We don't ignore. We don't avoid. We don't brush it to one side. We do go there with, like, the difficult things. I've just thought now of another example, which I think is relevant here.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:19:23]:

When the Christchurch mosque attack happened in New Zealand six years ago, Lindsay was, I think, literally the first person to call me. Bear in mind, that's New Zealand. We're in the UK. But she knew that it was a mosque. It was a horrific attack. It came out of seemingly out of the blue. It was streamed online. I mean, it was horrendous, the whole thing.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:19:47]:

And it felt very personal as these things do when it happens like that because you start to imagine yourself in that place. And she just knew that I would feel like that. So she called me, and she was on the school run. And I got emotional. I got angry about the whole thing. I remember saying to her, you know, why is anyone shocked at this? We all knew something like this was gonna happen. It could happen here. I got all of that out, and she's kind of on the speaker phone in the car with kids and going to the school run, and and she just listened and let me do my thing.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:20:25]:

And, again, I'll always be grateful for that because in that moment, I needed to do that with someone, and and it was just right to be able to do it with somebody who perhaps wasn't Muslim and so saw it and would feel it because she could relate to it if it was in a synagogue. But, also, it wasn't, so she was a little bit detached. And so I, you know, I felt very grateful for that. So that just came to me as well when we were speaking about this. These things matter. And those moments where you need to just do that thing, venting and being angry with the world or whatever, I did that that moment. I did it in the moment where we spoke after 7th October. I think it was the next day.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:21:09]:

Yeah. So I feel that all gets built on that trust thing. And, it doesn't happen otherwise because you can't fake this kind of stuff. Like, it's just natural. So that's where it's real. You know? These are not we don't skirt around the issues. It that we're in it. We're we're in the thick of it and, trying to figure it out.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:21:29]:

And that that, for me, feels something very special indeed.

 

Méli [00:21:33]:

Thank you for talking about that. Lindsay, any comment about that?

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:21:38]:

Yeah. First of all, I think the most important thing about friendship in general and perhaps about a friendship between people of different religions is that it's not just about you. As Julie said there, for example, my kids are in the car that one time. My kids, they know that lots of my work is not just about work, it's also about friendship. And you can't do that, those Muslims. You know what the Muslims are like. I wanna say, oh, you mean like jewels? I remember when I was, a bit of more academic kind of experience. When I was applying for a job, it was actually a job, about women peace builders, and I remember talking in the interview about how often women are sort of poo pooed, their work is kind of trivialised or even invisibilised, it's very pink and fluffy and very pretty.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:22:30]:

It's, you know, there's what the UN do and then there's what the women do. This kind of trivialisation. And I brought an example of when, as it happens, it was about Laura, Marx and Julie, when they were the co-founders, as Julie has previously mentioned, of Nisa Nasim, the Jewish Muslim women's network. And at the time somebody, and I believe it was a man, was kind of trivializing their work and said something to the tune of oh yes, you know grannies with iPhones, You know, they think they can get people together. And I compared it with the relationship between the late Queen and Mary McAleese, the former, president of Ireland, who themselves were indeed no doubt grannies with iPhones. But what they achieved through I believe a friendship. Now just like Julie and me, that friendship began in a very contrived environment, there's no question about it. It was set up to bring people together, we were chosen and we had to apply and all of that sort of thing.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:23:36]:

And in the same way as as you know that the Queen in her position at the time and Mary McAleese and her, they had to get together in some sense. Actually they didn't have to get together, they they there was a relationship but they chose to take that to a place that then really changed the face of British politics and of the way in which issues with Ireland, Northern Ireland, England, The UK were shifted. And that was really based on a friendship. That had been, as I said about Julianne, or has been trivialized. There is this sense that somehow friendship is a lesser form of relationship than a prime minister with a prime minister or whatever it is. I don't feel strongly just now because I'm friends with Julie. I mean, I just feel strongly that individuals must impact others. So you always impact your family and then your community and perhaps the wild world depending on what you're doing and and and so on and so forth.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:24:42]:

And so there's always that. You asked initially your your question was about our public sort of facing selves, but just our friendship demands of us, necessitates in that regard, sort of a public facing. And I think the other thing it does is it means that we can take the stuff that we have in our own communities, which is often also very difficult. For example, that's Lindsay, you know, that left wing liberal namby pamby pink and fluffy mad feminist or whatever nomenclature is for the day. We imagine that friendships across these, kind of, again, conceived boundaries or differences are somehow harder to bridge, when actually often it's our own communities that we are struggling to communicate with. And I think that this friendship in particular, and these friendships in general, do help disentangle some of the issues that we face with our own communities about the work that we do. And I think that that public facing role really helps both me anyway and us with that, but also other people who are experiencing that. I hear what Julie Julie has to face in her own community.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:26:00]:

I have to say we face very different things, but we can get it. We can understand that. I just wanted to say also this togetherness, the way in which somehow when people see a a Muslim woman wearing a a veil and a Jewish woman wearing a head covering whose relationship with one another is clearly, you know, compassionate, kind, gentle, noisy, argumentative. Just the presence of that, irrespective of what we say, irrespective of necessarily what we're there for, has impact. I know that just because people have told me, and I think we forget that. And it's, it's an important part, you know, the way it looks, you know, out there.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:26:49]:

Yeah. I was just remembering that something recently where we were physically together at a podium or something, and people were very struck by it. And afterwards, we were kind of like, we're actually good at this. You know, meaning, it makes an impact just very ordinary and real with each other. It does impact people because I think we're just in a world, I guess, where we're made to think that this kind of thing can't possibly happen. And, actually, we are just doing that thing of being together and trusting each other and enjoying our each other's company and also speaking to difficult issues articulately well together, standing in shoulder to shoulder, solidarity, all of that. I think it just does have an impact on people. And just to follow on from what I mentioned earlier about post October 7 and all of the kind of horrors of that day and then the things that have happened since then, On that day when I said to Lindsay, think we need to do something, we then set about doing a thing, which in some ways didn't make sense.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:27:57]:

To some people, we essentially organized an event, an in-person event for Jewish and Muslim women, about 50 of them. We felt that we wanted to get people into a room. We wanted to create a space which we weren't really seeing anywhere else. We wanted to do it as women because there's something powerful about that. We have our own other, you know, contacts and friendships and trusted relationships with other people, some of whom we know each others and some we don't. And we essentially created a gathering. We chose a space. It ended up being Westminster Abbey, which to a certain extent is a very grand place. We did it in a room called the Jerusalem Chamber, which felt very relevant. It's very historic. It's very grand.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:28:55]:

Can I butt in for one moment? I know I don't wanna talk across you, but I I want to say that we were offered that room. I think there's something about that too. We spoke to, a a friend, who happened to work in the Abbey, and she felt so strongly about us doing this together that she offered us this space in Westminster Abbey. And I think that that was very telling of of many things, but specifically about that it was necessary and so needed and that, Julie and I could do it. If I give you the space, I know you guys can do it. There was a there was a real belief in what what what we were hoping to do. Yeah. Okay, Jules.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:29:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I was also about to add that the the fact that we even they even responded and and offered it and agreed to do it so quickly is also testimony to that friendship and the trust that she had in us that we could do it and that we would do it well and and in a way that wasn't controversial. And so that was definitely there also in the in the trusted friendship with her. And we were extremely grateful because anybody who knows anything about an establishment like that knows that the diary is booked a very long time in advance. And to just be able to make it happen is not easy. So we were really humbled by that, and I still remain humbled by the fact that they did all of that for us. We brought women together, but, you know, the fact that we had it in a space like that meant that it felt sacred and safe.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:30:29]:

It was deliberate that we wanted somewhere like that, and we were just really grateful that we it they've made it work for us. Everything about organizing that event was built on all of what we've been saying already. And I don't wanna kind of labor the point about trust, but, honestly, there are I don't think really any other people that I could have done that event with at that time because it needed to be done in a very short space of time in very, very difficult emotional circumstances. I've never ever seen in all of my 25, 30 years of community organizing, I've never seen something impact people from another part of the world, something happening and impacting people here in such a visceral way as this has. And that was right from the beginning and still remains so now eighteen months on. I've never known anything do that in this way. So that means that we were having to carry and navigate all of that, but it still felt like the right thing to do. And literally, every day, we had conversations, and we had to be able to say, we can't invite that person.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:31:49]:

What do you think about this person? What about this? What about this dynamic? Why not that? In a very practical but also trusting way, because that's that was the nature of what we needed to do. We needed to get the right people in the room, and the only way to do that is to literally have a list and kind of agree it together and trust a person suggested because of for a reason that I might not know, but I trust her judgment and vice versa. We ended up bringing 50 Jewish and Muslim women together. I wanted to just say something about the space, which was what became very apparent to me was that for the Jewish women, it was very, very important that the space felt safe from entry point, meaning you have to have a list. They needed to be reassured that only the people that were allowed in would come in. It was really important to get all of that right, and we made sure all of the messaging, everything spoke to that. For the Muslim women and I'm generalizing, but it was pretty much how it how it was. For the Muslim women, it was less so about that actual point of entry safety, much more about who's gonna find out that I was there.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:33:11]:

Is it gonna be spoken about online? Are there gonna be any pictures taken? What that might do in terms of backlash to me as a Muslim woman, that was important. And, again, we had to navigate that, speak to that, decide on that. Some people would love to have taken photographs. We we allowed no photographs, and we chose a trusted mutual Muslim friend journalist to pitch it to a national newspaper to write the story about the event afterwards, which she did beautifully. And from then, we got more publicity invited on TV, etcetera. But so we did both the managing of the public side of it. Properly between us, we had to really agree that, and then do that thing every day of talking every day every day to make it all happen. And then afterwards, we specifically chose how to speak about it.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:34:09]:

And all of that was done in a dance between us of trying to think what other people would think, what did we think, but also carrying other people's emotions, the burden of all of this, the responsibility on all of us to do the right things, carrying people's hearts with us because they're broken and people feel frightened and, you know, people feel angry and voiceless, and they they're frustrated. And all of that was carried into that event organizing. And I honestly couldn't have done it with anybody else.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:34:50]:

May I add a couple of comments about the the event? Yep. Please. Thank you. Thank you, Meli. I wanted to say about those right people. I think that both of us were were tentative about who needed to be there and who we felt both would really contribute something to the event, but also would take stuff away. We invited everybody anonymously, so nobody knew who else was coming at all. And we let everybody know that there would be no, as Julia said, no publicity with any names.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:35:24]:

But what that also allowed us to do was was really enable people to participate from all different fields. So we had we had academics, we had people from the media, we had people from very grassroots organizations to quite senior positions in NGOs and that kind of thing. So it allowed that sort of mixture of people who also themselves don't necessarily get together very often. And the other thing it did was I'm gonna talk about the content just a little bit. What we did was we included the way we felt, we included words of prayer, we included a piece about the killing of Jewish women, Palestinian women, Muslim women, Christian women. Like, we included, as best we could, the pain of all the people who were impacted so directly. And that also allowed people to, envisage this concept of sharing pain. Instead of it being competitive victimhood, my pain is way too than yours.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:36:27]:

Rather, it was the space where people felt and heard and experienced other people's pain, again, in a very safe, secure, and kind space. And people didn't leave. This is the point I really wanted to make. We were given the space, I can't remember, an hour ninety minutes, whatever it was, and then we were supposed to be kind of thrown out as Julia said. We you never get thrown out Westminster Abbey, but, you know, as Julia said, it's a very busy space. They've got things to do, you know. Our slot was this, and people didn't leave. And eventually we did get thrown out very gently, but they were like, guys, we know you're really glad to be here and and and so on.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:37:06]:

But the point there is that people clearly needed that space. They found it profoundly comforting, profoundly reassuring, and they didn't want to go. And they found people that they could speak with and to and hear voices and be listened to that enabled them to kind of not move on, but leave better equipped to navigate the incredibly difficult and challenging, times and field ahead. And and they took they took with them that event. And and from it, as Julia said, we were invited to many other things apart from kind of a TV appearance about the event itself, which was lovely and and and and fun and, you know, slightly left afield. But we've been asked to do lots of other events. We've been asked to speak at other events. We were actually given this honorary doctorate, and I only mention it because it was so much about sort of enabling peace building, enabling people to come together.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:38:05]:

And at that event, which was, a specifically wonderful event because we spoke in front of about probably 1,500 young students and their parents, and it was in a London University which is incredibly diverse and in that particular university, that's Middlesex University, I think about 70% of the students are from abroad. So again, we we were able to speak to, an audience together, in a way that perhaps they haven't experienced before. So all these opportunities lead to other opportunities. And, again, you don't know the impact of those.

 

Méli [00:38:41]:

Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm really struck by the leitmotif. Certain words that keep coming up, the care, the trust, the need to have established a very solid foundation of friendship between you, which then allowed you to you know, Julie, to spontaneously say, hey. I I think we need to do something and have that land well. And then the care you took in assembling the participants, the opportunity to be in Westminster Abbey. You know, interesting that a Muslim Jewish gathering was in a Christian church. And and maybe that was really a planned or or accidental, really well-situated opportunity that you you were in a neutral environment.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:39:40]:

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Méli [00:39:41]:

And a well-respected, august kind of situation.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:39:46]:

Because I think the venue in that instance gave it some extra gravitas and felt special and important because of where it was. And because of the friendships that we have with others, there were some, you know, very important to us and important in the world, Christian women there also. Not in a kind of any other way other than just we will be in the space with you. And that also for me felt important. They really wanted to do that. And in fact, I would say that a year on, the day before the first anniversary of the October 7, so the October 6, leading up to it, I had really felt that if I could go to bed on the 10/06/2024, knowing that I had been part of something where we brought people together again into a space that you just can't always find, I would sleep better because it's been so hard and so fractured and so difficult, and people have just lost friendships, and it feels heartbreaking when I see all of that happening. I've had people walk away from me, my own friends, Muslim friends, other friend you know, people who just don't relate to my way of handling all of this have walked away. And it's hard, really hard.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:41:11]:

It feels very painful. And I I've just had to just see that happen and not know even what to do. But on the October 6, we were also part of a smaller but profound important gathering of women again, some of whom were there on the day that we've spoken about and some weren't, but a smaller group of us to, again, just come together into a space to say and show this is possible, and it doesn't all have to be so divided. And there are other ways of doing this, and we are holding each other's pain. And we're not creating a hierarchy of pain. And we're not saying one type of feeling is more important than another. We're saying all of it matters. And it's not easy to do that in this space, and we did that.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:42:00]:

So, again, I mentioned it also to say that that was also in a church in a different place. And all of these are you know, even choosing to do it in a church is tricky. Some Jews don't want to go into a church. Some Muslims don't want to go into a church. So, again, you have to navigate all of that and explain and help people to feel okay with the particular space it's in. It's not a consecrated space. It's not a prayer room. It's another type of space.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:42:26]:

It's neutral space. There are people in the church in both cases that would have thought why on earth are the church hosting these women. That again has to be about trust with the leader of the place to be able to explain to their own congregation why it felt appropriate to do it. So we did that a year on smaller way, you know, other people involved. But, again, I would say it builds on this feeling of wanting to connect people and be together and be part of that. Doing it publicly is not easy. You know, you get backlash. Mhmm.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:42:59]:

Things people write horrible articles about it. It can sometimes feel unsafe a bit when you get some of that backlash, but you have to really have the conviction that it's the right thing to do, and then recheck your intentions about why you're doing it, and then do it with the right people. And that, for me, has been the theme throughout all of this that we've done. You have to do it for the right reasons and be sincere about it, and then it will work in the way that it's meant to work.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:43:27]:

I I do think it's important to mention this women thing. We have, spoken about the way in which, most of the work that we've done together has been with women. Obviously, not all of it, but much of it. Certainly in the last few years, there's been a real, for me, a kind of explosion of male power in the world that has left me feeling very unsafe, very distressed, very a woman in the world suddenly rather than just a person thinking about world leadership and and so on and so forth. And it's also felt very impersonal. I don't want to, tar all men with the same brush in any way at all, but the men who are in leadership positions, especially politically at the moment, I think are causing many women a lot of distress. And the personal, for me, as indicated by our friendship, and friendship in general, creates moments or defines certain moments where the personal becomes much more important than the political in very dire straits. I just think about the, say, the Catholic, families who hid Jews in their homes during the Holocaust or so many stories that are very similar to that kind of thing.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:44:52]:

And my point is that no matter what very powerful and very dangerous leaders said at particular points in history, those personal moments ultimately saved people's lives. It wasn't their political feelings necessarily their religion or it could be that they, you know, they were invigorated by their own religious beliefs, but nevertheless, it was that personal relationship or that personal investment in the relationship that marked out that moment in their life of saving, caring, compassion, for other people. And I I think that we forget that at our peril.

 

Méli [00:45:32]:

Yeah. Well said, Lindsay. So I know we're basically out of time, but I do want to, put in a a final question to you to you both. We've spoken a lot about your personal friendship and about your collaborations in a more public venue, responses, all of that, all the planning. When you two are looking forward, say, the next few months, maybe a year, what are your hopes and intentions?

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:46:07]:

Do you wanna go first, Julie?

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:46:09]:

You go first. And then I'll just say I agree with everything she said. 

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:46:17]:

What are my hopes? Okay. So I I hope that I have the time and the ability to persist, and invest in these personal relationships. I don't feel that with Julie that requires me to sort of, like, write a note, you know, invest in relationship with Julie and friendship. You know, that's that's going to happen anyway. I'm not worried about that. But in general, that is a priority that those personal relationships are quite at the top of my list, of my to do list in this space, you know, looking out onto the world and what I can contribute. The other thing I would say is that we certainly, Julie and I in particular, we continue to do the work that is public facing in order, as best we can, to impact both the very local, the national, who knows, the international, global. Because that is the work that we can do and because we're so comfortable doing it, then we should be doing it.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:47:19]:

I feel that very strongly. And lastly, I really feel that female leadership, again from its most domestic and individual and personal to its most expansive and global, is a profoundly, important contribution to make to the world at this moment, especially when difference has become somehow so problematic, when in essence of course all human beings are very different. And that I feel is, in theological terms, the point. And our work is to really feel very blessed, content, and even desire that difference in order to, as we've said already, create a more gentle, compassionate, and peaceful world.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:48:11]:

Julie? A lot of that resonates with me. I guess I hope that I can be brave enough because it does sometimes need bravery to do what I think is the right thing and to follow my heart and to stay in this space and to hang on the bridge and to keep on keeping on. It's not always easy. It can be really difficult, but I just feel, I hope that I can follow what I believe in. If it can help, I don't feel that I can change lots of people all the time, but I often just think about one person and one thing that we say or do. And the fact that we stand together, that could just help someone shift their thinking or make them feel reassured or whatever. All of that feels important to me. Right now, I don't feel very optimistic about what I'm seeing in terms of how things are going to go in that part of the world.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:49:09]:

The impact on people has been just so big and so deep, and I'm just not sure. And the information exchange of some people and people are hearing different things about the same incident and, you know, all of that I feel quite overwhelmed by, and I think the collective trauma can't be underestimated. I think the how people are gonna pick themselves back up, they will because we always do as humans, but it's really had such a profound impact on so many people there and also here. But I feel people have been changed forever, not in a good way. So my kind of optimistic hopeful self as I naturally feel I am is also struggling with that. I think it's going to have a long term impact, not in a good way. So I I feel there's a lot of healing, a lot of thing to do in just personal and collective level. And I hope that the people that are able to help make that happen can emerge and take that forward because I feel really worried about all of that.

 

Julie Siddiqi [00:50:13]:

I think we can also inspire other people to be brave, maybe, because it isn't easy. I admit that openly. It's not easy, and I don't always feel brave at all. And some of it feels very ordinary what we talk about. And we because we're so used to each other and because we have fully trust each other and all of that as we've been saying over and over again, but I know that it's not always easy for people to do that. Mhmm. And so I want to be part of helping other people to feel inspired or motivated to just maybe step in, step up, step out, if that's what they feel they're called to do, and not always feel bullied into not doing it because that's what happens. And if I can be part of that even for one person, I'd feel that it was a service that was worth doing.

 

Méli [00:51:04]:

Step in, step up, step out.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:51:07]:

That was good, Julie.

 

Méli [00:51:10]:

Well, Julie and Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on my Living Our Beliefs podcast. This has been a rich and powerful conversation. I so appreciate your time, attention, and engagement. Thank you.

 

Lindsay Simmonds [00:51:28]:

Thank you so much.

 

Méli [00:51:31]:

Thanks so much for listening to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. If you'd like to hear a similar story of interfaith dialogue, check out my conversation with Raphael Luzon, building peace through interfaith dialogue. In that episode, Raphael talks about his long and successful career facilitating high level interfaith dialogue and his faith in its power. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. To keep up to date about new episodes, blog posts, and other events, sign up for my twice monthly newsletter. A link is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.