Living Our Beliefs: Exploring Faith & Religion in Daily Life

Grief as a Sacred Opening – Zeyneb Sayilgan

• Meli Solomon, the Talking with God Project • Season 4 • Episode 97

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Episode 97.  

Burying a child is an unimaginable trauma that no parent should have to face. My guest today, Zeyneb Sayilgan, has sadly needed to endure that pain and grief twice. Through it all, her Muslim faith has sustained her and provided a path for healing. She has joined me to talk about her experience of loss and subsequent growth, as well as the related Islamic beliefs about death and the afterlife. We also touch on where the beliefs are similar to those in Judaism. Zeyneb brings both personal experience and knowledge to this complex topic. 


Highlights: 

  • Zeyneb’s personal religious and cultural background
  • Engagement with death in the Muslim community
  • Comparison of death practices and attitudes in different countries
  • Parallels and differences with Jewish and Christian practices
  • Detailed overview of Islamic funeral practices
  • Community healing through grief
  • Life's value: time and eternity


Bio:   

Zeyneb Sayilgan, Ph.D., is the Muslim Scholar at ICJS, The Institute for Islamic, Christian, and Jewish Studies in Baltimore, where her research focuses on Islamic theology and spirituality as articulated in the writings of Muslim scholar Bediüzzaman Said Nursi (1876-1960). She is the host of the Podcast On Being Muslim. You can read her publications on her blog.


References:

 

Social Media and other links for Zeyneb:  


Suggested episodes on Living Our Beliefs:

  • Elissa Felder episode 
  • Bonus episode on Tahara


Transcript on Buzzsprout


Social Media and other links for Méli:


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The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project.

Zeyneb Sayilgan transcript

Grief as a Sacred Opening

 

 

Méli Solomon [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Méli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more, check out the link in the show notes. 

 

Burying a child is an unimaginable trauma that no parent should have to face. My guest today, Zeyneb Sayilgan, has sadly needed to endure that pain and grief twice. Through it all, her Muslim faith has sustained her and provided a path for healing. She has joined me to talk about her experience of loss and subsequent growth, as well as the related Islamic beliefs about death and the afterlife. We also touch on where the beliefs are similar to those in Judaism. Zeyneb brings both personal experience and knowledge to this complex topic. Though this conversation is not graphic, death is a difficult subject. So please take care in listening. And now, let's turn to our conversation. 

 

Hello and welcome, Zeyneb, to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I am so pleased to have you on today.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:01:38]:

Thank you so much, Méli, for having me.

 

Méli Solomon [00:01:41]:

So we're going to be talking about death, dying, and grief. But before we dive into that, I'd like to learn a little more about your path. You are a Muslim. You grew up in Germany. Your parents are Turkish. Can you say a little about how that was and and were you raised as a practicing Muslim?

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:02:04]:

Yes. That's correct. I was born and raised in Germany as a child of Muslim immigrants from Turkey or Turkey as we now say. And I was first born in the strange lands as my grandma used to call it. And I grew up in a very traditional Muslim household. I come from a simple background. My parents, never had the privilege to receive a formal education. So all what they, knew about Islam was deeply traditional in in in a beautiful and good way.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:02:40]:

I always was very grateful to be able to grow up in a strong traditional Muslim household. But that also meant that my parents were never really exposed to the outside secular culture, the public school system. They didn't receive the same type of questions that I received because they they they were not part of that outside mainstream secular culture. And religion was not something that you do in public. Going to public school in Germany, coming home into my family who lived a very traditional, beautiful, simple way of Islam, not asking critical questions about the whys and the what. I was early on confronted to ask the question, am I Muslim because of certainty and knowledge? Is it based on something that I freely and consciously choose? Or am I a practicing Muslim because my forefathers and my ancestors practiced this religion? And oftentimes in Germany, I also had difficult experiences because of that. I was, early on in middle school, started to wear, the Muslim headscarf that already made me very visible. And with that came always a lot of questioning and, challenge.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:04:00]:

And oftentimes, discriminatory practices by teachers, classmates, and the job market and the workforce. So that was a pretty consistent experience. As much as I love Germany as my one of my home countries, there were also painful experiences that allowed me to grow and be more self conscious about my Muslim faith and practice. In retrospect, I'm grateful for that. But when I was a child, that was hard.

 

Méli Solomon [00:04:25]:

Yeah. I can well imagine.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:04:27]:

Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a very diverse Muslim community in Germany. So Turkish Muslims are a big population. But growing up, I had Afghan Muslim friends, Bosnian Muslim friends, Tunisian, Moroccan, Egyptian. And you you learn a lot of soft skills, but you also see the beauty and the unity of the Muslim community. And you you realize, you know, the beauty of the shared religious language and the shared religious vocabulary. And and that also already exposes you to the world. So something that I as much as I love Turkey and visiting every summer because my relatives are there, there's something that I miss.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:05:04]:

I I miss the richness and the the diversity because Turkey is more of a homogeneous country still. But here in The United States and in Germany, you're just exposed to you have the window to the Muslim world and and to to this large diverse Muslim community, which is just beautiful to experience.

 

Méli Solomon [00:05:25]:

Yeah. Absolutely. So we'd agreed to talk about death, dying, and grief. And I'm curious about why or how it is that this is a current focus of yours in your research and in your thoughts.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:05:41]:

Sure. So over two years ago, my three-year-old daughter, Mariyam, was killed in a car accident. Before that, I had a stillbirth. My baby boy died in 02/2018. And then after him, I had her, and it's the most distressing experience for an adult. That's without doubt. And it's too gigantic to hide or to deny or avoid. I feel I'm because of my Muslim experience and what you said earlier, because I was visibly always Muslim, I can't hide.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:06:19]:

I don't want to hide myself and and things that I experience in my life. And I early on, I realized this is too gigantic for me to carry alone. I want to share and process my grief with other fellow human beings who have similar experiences and who ultimately also experience grief because this is a universal experience. And now in my life, I approach all experiences as sacred openings to wisdom, to meaning. And I feel that even in the traumatic experiences I mean, there's something that we call post traumatic growth, but I'm a firm believer even in throughout my whole life was experiencing discrimination and bullying and stereotyping. I've learned that there's always growth happening. As painful as it is in the sadness and the sorrow and the grief, they are huge moments. These are what I call sacred experiences, sacred in inviting us to to find deeper meaning and deeper connection with others.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:07:24]:

And I'm experiencing that. I wanted to see this when I looked at pictures of my destroyed van. I said this is not the end of my story. I I refuse to accept that chaos, destruction, devastation is the end of my life. I don't embrace that. I've never accepted that. I feel that there is in everything always that God calls us to find meaning and to find wisdom and that we can grow in the midst of suffering and pain and hardships. And I've always experienced growth in my most difficult experiences and with the most difficult people.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:08:02]:

And so I said to myself early on in my intense grief, I'm I'm a scholar. I love anything about theology and spirituality and, all events in life are always transformative. So I took this and I was fortunate to work at a place that allowed me to address this from a theological, scholarly perspective, creating space and allowing ourselves to be vulnerable. So that was something I don't know. I had this vision early on. Where do I I don't want to just survive grief. I want to grow with it. I want to thrive with it.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:08:38]:

I want to be a better person. How do I envision my grief experience? Where do I wanna be in ten years? That was a very early thought. And I I said to myself saying that you you just don't want to survive this, which is which is still a very honorable goal because it's something that you literally fall apart. You're questioned to pieces. And do you have to rewire your brain and relearn? I said, I wanna take this into my teaching, into my writing, into my relationships. I want to be fully seen. And grief has now become so much about my core identity. I will always be a grieving mother.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:09:21]:

But I I see it as a sacred experiences. And my daughter and my children who left so early as spiritual guides in my life, who have something to teach me about the afterlife, about grief, about death, about suffering? Why do we live if we have to confront mortality? So there's a lot of existential questions. But realizing early on, this is something that people want to talk about because frankly, as a society, we are not very well equipped to talk about raw difficult topics. It happens to us all. But we don't know how to talk about death and dying and grief, and it's so sterilized and stigmatized. And I learned that when we are brave enough to confront these topics that we actually live better lives. So, yeah, I think that really brought me to where I am today. And I'm still sometimes I tell myself, why am I doing this? But I feel like I have no other choice. And I I found the deepest connections with other people by talking to about those difficult topics.

 

Méli Solomon [00:10:23]:

Going straight to the pain point and through that tension, cracking it open, and coming to terms with it.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:10:33]:

Yeah. It was kind of therapeutic, Meli. I mean, it's it's it still is as you are writing, reflecting. You're processing your inner world. You're trying to give meaning to it. You know, Viktor Frankl once said, “the meaning of life is to give life meaning.” I mean, you are the one who decides. Are you going to be a victim or do you have agency? You always have a choice how you confront your experience and trauma.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:11:00]:

I realized I still have agency. There are ways I can respond to this. I can lift this up. I can make it a beautiful transformative experience, and I can build relationships. And I have found so much beauty in that, and I'm in awe of the sacred work. We we are very good in always talking about the pursuit of happiness. You know, people have called it solar spirituality. You know, we lift up the birthdays, the graduations, the retirements, the accolades.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:11:30]:

But where's the other half of the human experience? That it's not solar and sunshine, rosy and happy. It's sorrow. It's sadness. It's sometimes loneliness. It's separation. It's death. When we address that, when we are brave enough to talk about the other half of the human experience, which everyone is going through, then we see each other more fully. We are more whole. We feel we are fully seen. Grief, I've learned, can be a very lonely experience. You can exacerbate or intensify the grief when you are in isolation. But once it's open, it's talked about. It's visible. It's processed together. It feels so much lighter. And, we see each other more fully.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:12:13]:

I see you now clearly. You carry a lot of weight with you. And how how do you deal with it? And it's a witnessing. I feel that people who share their grief or their pain just want to be witnessed. Do you see me fully? Do you acknowledge that I'm carrying something that feels invisible to the rest of the world? And when we just bear witness to each other's joys and pains, it feels so relieving and liberating and healing. I found so much healing and people seeing me more fully. And it it works a healer in them, but it also heals me. It's this communal care, this caring for each other all of a sudden. It's not something that I give to them or they give to me. It's communal healing and communal uplifting.

 

Méli Solomon [00:13:03]:

I'm wondering how this topic is alive in the Muslim community.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:13:10]:

Mhmm. You know, as a scholar, when I go and as a observant Muslim, when I read the tradition, it's so beautiful how transparent everything is, like, really acknowledging the full human experience of pain and pleasure, of joy and sorrow. But somehow, as as a community person, I go out in the community. Death is is in our tradition. I'll be taught there's such a beautiful, healthy approach to death and dying and grief. But somehow, I think it has taken a back seat. I think we have adopted the kind of secular mindset. It's there in the tradition, but we don't directly utilize the resources we have.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:13:58]:

And that's what I found. In every sermon, the Quran on every page talks about death and afterlife. The majority of, the Quranic content engages with mortality, the fact that life in this world is finite and transitory, talks about cultivating healthy attachments, it talks about a loss of wealth, loss of beauty, loss of health, loss of children, loss of loved ones. Yet, in the daily discourse, as I've brought these topics into my community, it has somehow not been engaged sufficiently. With my own experience, like, I I after that, two years ago early on, I started the series in my community about death, dying, mortality. And it it was so well received because there's everything is in in the in the resources, but we don't engage it sufficiently. And we have to I think what I realized is that somehow we most at least some of us have adopted a little bit of, oh, let's not talk about it. It's there.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:15:01]:

But so I feel it has come more to the forefront, especially now in this moment where we look around us and especially in the pandemic. You know? There's all of a sudden death was so much on our radar. COVID has taken so many lives. And then with with the wars around us, we we just are more aware about the fragility of life, that mortality is is real. We cannot avoid it. We have to face it. And I feel like death is more in the awareness. I see a lot more of of of public engagement with death, you know, talking about death doulas.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:15:38]:

But then there was some tradition. So the beauty is in theory and in the theology and in the practice, everything is there. But over time, I feel something has gotten lost. So I wanna bring this back and say the tradition talks, so consciously, so directly about these topics. I'm not doing something new. I'm just bringing it back. The remembrance of death allows us to live more meaningful lives, the lives with beauty and intentionality and living life more purposefully. That's what the tradition is about.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:16:12]:

Islam wants people to reflect on mortality and, remember death often, not to deny worldly pleasures or to have some kind of escapist attitude, but to be actually more fully engaged in the world. Meaning, what are your priorities? Are you present in the moment? Do you build quality connections? Do you make time for people? Because this could be literally the last moment you see them. How do you treat them with respect and dignity and love? That's where mortality then makes our lives more meaningful. So from an Islamic perspective, when we act the way as if we live life for eternity on this planet, then we just keep wasting time or we are not fully present in our relationships and in the things that we are doing. So that's the point of the tradition to make the remembrance of death a more consistent element in our lives so we we live better lives. And so I think that's why writing about death, reflecting about death. After my daughter's death, I realized I'm more aware of my own finitude, my own mortality. I I slowed down. I take time to look people into their faces, say my goodbyes, be more present. Because life is so fast paced, and you always think about the next hour, the next day. I tell myself this could be my last moment, and I wanna live it fully.

 

Méli Solomon [00:17:36]:

Yeah. Absolutely. So you live in the US. You were raised in Germany. You went to Turkey. You really have three countries quite active in your life. Do you find that the attitude towards death varies very much between these three countries? Or is it more are we actually living that message from the Quran?

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:18:01]:

I I do think that the Islamic tradition encourages Muslims to be more aware of death. So when I go to Turkey, death is so much more integrated into public life. I'll give you a few examples that I've written in a piece. If somebody dies and the community is publicly announced, You hear the call from the minaret. You don't need to know the person personally. This is a fellow human being, a community member, and it's announced in the mosque, which is a public place. It's it's announced over the minaret. Everybody hears.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:18:37]:

Everybody knows somebody died. It's a collective obligation for the community, for every individual to make an effort to attend the open funeral prayer. So the coffin would be in front of the community. The moment is for for you as a living person to realize that this is going to be you tomorrow. So it's publicly accessible, publicly announced. Everybody can come. You don't need an invitation. Everybody should go.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:19:06]:

Also, death is not commercialized. Everyone has a right for dignified burial. The government, the municipality make sure that the costs are covered. The burial spot is guaranteed. So from what I'm observing is death is much more integrated into public life. If you look at traditional Muslim cities, the traditional city structure of Muslim towns, you'll see that the cemetery is at the center of the city, which basically means that the dead and the living, they they are one community. And when you are you're passing cemeteries, you should greet the people of the grave, actively communicating, praying for the deceased. Visiting cemeteries is a really important religious practice for the young and the old.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:19:56]:

So death is an equalizer. Death is integrated into, the Muslim city structure. And what I found here is and in Germany, death is privatized. Somebody dies in my neighborhood and a couple of people died in my American suburb suburban neighborhood. Nothing stops. You know? And if you go in into, traditional Muslim towns, smaller towns now, not in the big cities, but the whole town would grieve for a week. People would not even turn on the TV. The idea was out of respect for this person and for us to pause and slow down and think, death is real.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:20:33]:

How am I living my life? What is my vision in life? So when I compare that and I've written about it, I realize and it's not healthy. It's not healthy for society to pretend death is a solitary experience or should be privatized because it makes people suffer unnecessarily. When you realize that this is a communal experience, it's a universal experience, it really lowers your burden. And it's also, a community obligation to visit the grieving family to make sure that they're taken care of, meal trains are provided. And I know that's also done, of course, in some ways in in non-Muslim, communities. But what I'm seeing, for example, here in the mosque here in America, it's, like, ten minutes from my home. Similarly, the death news is announced in the open community newsletter. It's happening during the week sometimes at 1PM.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:21:26]:

People have work. People have busy school schedules, but they go. They make time to honor the person, to honor the deceased. And it's also something that we need as the living individuals to to have spaces and moments where we can process our own grief. I found it amazing to go to these open funeral services. Recently, another mother lost her child. I was reading about her 12-year-old son. I just wanted to be there.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:21:56]:

And people asked me, are you a family member? I said, no. I'm just a community member. I wanted to be here. This is also healing for my own grieving heart as a mom who lost her child. I was grateful to have that space where I can be with others who are expressing sadness and sorrow. So I think it is Islam is really about trying to prevent certain severe spiritual diseases that make it harder for us. When you have some preventive measures, you are more prepared. Now I make an effort to go with my daughter, for example, my manual 10-year-old because I want her to know death is part of life.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:22:35]:

This is not something we can escape. But in our hearts, when we attend those services and and see people who are crying, shedding tears, as a child, you you know, you know, this is gentle preparation that this is an experience of all humans, and it feels less intense when you're going to. I mean, of course, nothing can prepare. The loss of a loved one is always hard. But those are the things that I'm observing that death is more sterilized, stigmatized. We call it death denying cultures. But as you go further east, I think death is more on the radar of people and it's it's there's more of an acknowledgment, public engagement with death, and a support. I hear for example, you'll you'll not find a cremate, a crematory in Muslim countries because it's prohibited to cremate the debt. And now I'm hearing a lot of people make that choice because a funeral is expensive. You see that handled differently in Muslim, societies.

 

Méli Solomon [00:23:36]:

Yeah. I think that this this point about how public it is and the support. I think really what it addresses is whatever your religion, whatever your cultural background, are you actually an active part of a community, of that community?

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:23:54]:

Yeah.

 

Méli Solomon [00:23:55]:

So I see the same thing in my Jewish community where there's a death in the community. It is, you know, put out in the bulletin, emails go out, and it's considered a mitzvah, a good deed. To attend the funeral, to attend the shiva. I can see that parallel.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:24:15]:

That's beautiful because my Jewish colleague exactly shared that. We have this faculty seminar on interreligious perspectives on death and dying. And there were so many similarities, of course, is when it comes to the ritual washing of the deceased body or even, like you said, those public services where everybody attends and supports. And let me be clear. I mean, there should be time for healthy solitude. You need to be alone and process your grief. But also in the Christian tradition, there was, in the medieval times, until the medieval times, the practice of memento mori, remembering death. And you see often in, those traditional churches, you see the cemetery right next to the church.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:25:00]:

We often see that even now as we pass by churches. So the cemetery was attached to the community who was still alive, allowing the community to reflect on their ultimate destination. And so I think that is a more more holistic and healthy approach. A lot of people are just afraid. We don't know and we don't teach how to talk about death. How do we care for each other in those moments? People think the best way is always just to be alone, but excessive loneliness intensifies the grief I found. It has been healing to be a little bit in community and hear the experience of others who have been experiencing grief as well.

 

Méli Solomon [00:25:42]:

Yeah. This privatizing and sanitizing of death, shutting it away from from life is really a Western developed issue. I think that's really the element that in more traditional practices, it's a part of life. Not to be valorized or something, I I think it can go too far. I wanna ask a little more specifically. You you mentioned a few things about the practice, the visiting, the announcement. Are there other elements of the Muslim practice around the death?

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:26:21]:

So for example, the ritual washing that I mentioned earlier is an important sacred practice. It's an important element in, in the funeral practices in Islam. So I'm part of a group of 80 woman volunteers. It is not something that you earn money with. It's it's absolutely voluntary. It's a sacred act. The tradition highly recommends for people to do it. After my daughter died and other sisters, dear sisters of faith in my community prepared her and cared for her and did the final washing, I was so moved. I wanted to be part of this. And so now, regularly, I'm part of this group of women.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:27:08]:

It it keeps me grounded, quite frankly, to go there and be in a space where I reflect on my ultimate destiny. I'm very grateful to be part of this practice. It's done with so much reverence and care, and I learned so much being in this space. I realized if a religion honors the dead in such a way, what does it then call you to be to other living human beings? I mean, you have to treat everybody with dignity and respect and compassion. Because when you go into the room and see how much respect the dead body is treated and I'm very grateful that it's not commercialized. It's it's not outsourced. Because human beings need to be in some spaces where they can reflect on their own mortality. I was like, do do I need to wash a body? No.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:27:56]:

You can walk in nature and now in spring realize, like the Quran tells us all over. Look at the imprints of God's mercy, it says in one verse. How he resurrects the earth after its death. And surely, human beings will also be resurrected like that. He is all powerful, and we see it now. It's just a witness, testament to the afterlife. And I affirm that it gives me comfort, especially this season of spring, which we call the season of resurrection. But, of course, when you're in this room and see this person has invested all their energy, tried to build a life, their career, their children, grandchildren, and then they go into the earth and they decay, and that's it.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:28:41]:

Decline is the end of humanity. I it's just your whole nature rejects that. In fact, if anything, after my daughter died, I realized that her afterlife started because she she became a bigger personality in my life. Her love became stronger. And so there is a sort of afterlife that is developing after somebody dies, and you're already kind of witnessing that in your own experience and and life. So that's one, the ritual washing is one, important practice. The funeral prayer, important. The burial, those are all collective obligations.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:29:19]:

Visiting, the grieving family, taking care making sure you get into these uncomfortable spaces. There is I think sometimes people shun or avoid, you know, places where they feel, what should I say? What should I do? But just showing up, being present, being in spaces where you experience some productive discomfort because it will evoke some spiritual transformation in you, which is huge. Other practices that come to mind, reading the Quran when you visit the graveyards. It's a very strong tradition. Visiting cemeteries often, those graveyards often, it's very, very important. And remembering death throughout your day that, you know, sleep is called the little sibling of death. So there's a prayer when you go to sleep, you praise God who who gave you, this day to live. And when you wake up, you praise him, who made you dead for a while, but then you became alive.

 

Méli Solomon [00:30:23]:

Yeah. Interesting. And I'm hearing a lot of echoes of the Jewish practice as well, the washing–

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:30:30]:

Uh-huh.

 

Méli Solomon [00:30:31]:

Yeah. And the attitude, the view of sleep as a little death, the prayer before you go to sleep and the prayer when you wake up, and the value of visiting a house in morning. All of those are are absolute echoes. We light a candle for the family of the person who died. There's a a seven-day candle. Do you have something like that?

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:31:00]:

No. The candle culture is not very big in in in the Muslim community. Yeah. But I love candles. It's a beautiful park, but nothing that is, like, a requirement. But I've never seen lighting a candle for a deceased one.

 

Méli Solomon [00:31:13]:

The other thing that I that I wonder about in in listening to your description is this balance between valuing life and valuing almost honoring the afterlife. It sounds to me as a Jew. Right? Of course, I speak from within my tradition that in the Islamic tradition, there is a lot of focus on the afterlife. We believe in an afterlife as well, but it it's not it's not nearly as strong. I wonder whether it sometimes goes too far and cheapens the life you're actually living now. Do you see that, or have I, misconstrued something?

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:32:04]:

I hear you. That is something that I think is also the perception about Muslims and Islam that somehow we are glorifying death and the afterlife, and we all just wanna enter heaven immediately and have our 72 virgins. And let me just be clear. That's actually prohibited in the Islamic tradition. Nobody should desire death. Death is not glorified, but the approach is one of realism. Death is real. Death is––mortality is something that we cannot avoid.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:32:35]:

It hovers over us. So Islam, as I read my tradition, and I think it's it's very much the experience. I mean, I'm a community person. I don't see Muslims excessively glorifying the afterlife and denying the world. And, in fact, that's a very un-Islamic approach. The point of remembrance of death is really to keep you grounded in this world. Because you have this last moment, give yourself fully dedicate yourself fully to, the goals you're trying to accomplish. And don't waste your life.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:33:11]:

Don't waste your time. Time is a very limited good. There are so many sayings in the tradition where prophet Muhammad tells his followers never to ask for death, never to desire death. Because a long life is a blessing, especially a long life that is dedicated to worthy causes and holy goals and with the sacred vision is is an amazing life. And that's why we should really focus on being grounded in the moment and not thinking, yeah, well. But the reality is also Meli that life without the hereafter feels incomplete to me, and I'm pretty sure to all Muslims. Life is incomplete without the hereafter because I realize the happiness that I'm seeking, I don't get 100% here. Okay.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:33:58]:

My daughter is not here. I mean, that's that's already a a lack of fulfillment. Okay? I experience joy. I'm so grateful for every day. I cherish life. I cherish my cup of coffee every time. I love the smell. I take it all in. But I also realize somebody is missing. I can't deny I mean, her absence is felt everywhere. And then I turn on the TV, I see suffering. I see injustice. I see murder, rape, crime. That's too much for the heart, for those human spirit to say, is that all it? That's the that's all what I'm getting? Because my happiness is incomplete without the happiness of others. So there's deep comfort, I think, for Muslims to know, yes, this world is important because it's a plowing field for the hereafter. That's why justice work is incredibly important.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:34:51]:

We we are the ones here to build our ultimate life in the hereafter. That's why this this world is so incredibly important, but also realizing at the same time and living with the tension that I will never get 100%. You know? I've I've lost friends who died very early peak of their career in their forties of cancer. Is that it? That's it? That that's all what they're getting? They worked so hard. They put all their sweats and and energy into this incredible work, and then there's that's it. I I can't accept that. Recent example, engineers who worked all his life, built this home with his children, and then Alzheimer dementia. Seeing his decline and end, I said, I refuse.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:35:38]:

I don't believe that's the end of the human story. My whole existential being tells me if human beings are really the highest of creation, the most intellectual, the most emotional, the most spiritually capable, then decaying under the earth is not an option for me. Right? So there must be an afterlife, another dimension that rectifies, restores those episodes of suffering and injustice while I'm still involved in the justice work, while I'm still involved in social work, while I'm still doing my research and teaching. I didn't escape the world. I didn't look myself up and say, what's the what's the point? I'm gonna die anyway, and then my happiness will be in the hereafter, and I leave everything. No. It's––God calls me to be fully invested in this world and all Muslims. And I think I don't know where this comes from.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:36:29]:

Maybe it's this modern recent phenomenon where we were exposed with, you know, these suicide attacks and people thinking, oh, Muslims are just they wanna just die and, you know, blows themselves up. But I can tell you the golden age and all Muslim efforts in science and innovative thinking and scientific thinking and, writing and dreaming. It's because of loving life and honoring God in this world with all the skills and talents that he has given us. So there's nothing that, in Islam yeah. Of course, every every page in the Quran talks about the afterlife. Why would I deny myself that? Why would I not work for this amazing eternal life of happiness? No more pain. No more ache. No more separation.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:37:19]:

But the point is you build your afterlife here by using the world as a plowing field and investing yourself fully in the moment and not wasting your time being hopeless or in despair. I'm not in despair. I see the future is yet to come. I I take deep comfort. I know my daughter is there, and my daughter is alive, and that keeps me going every day. That gives me, enough encouragement to to live my life in this world fully.

 

Méli Solomon [00:37:47]:

Okay. So when you say there is actually this valuing of life and it doesn't say in the Quran to kill yourself one way or another. And yet there are these events. So are you saying that people who promote or take part in these suicide missions that that they are misunderstanding the Quran and and misconstruing the tradition? Or is there some subset of the community that that really believes that that is the way to an afterlife because that that's what they're saying. Right? That's the message.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:38:29]:

Mhmm.

 

Méli Solomon [00:38:30]:

You know, I don't I don't really care, so this life is not important. I I wanna get on to the afterlife and and have those glories, and and the way to do it is to blow myself up and as as many other people as possible as well.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:38:43]:

It's probably also acts of desperation, of hopelessness, of feeling disenfranchised. I mean, I don't know the whole I'm not an expert on the psychology of of suicide bombers. But I will tell you the data is out there. Majority of Muslims in The United States and the 2billion Muslims around the world and throughout history, Muslims have contributed to the societies they are living in. They are interested in being constructive citizens. We here in The United States, we have doctors, engineers, lawyers, restaurant owners, cab drivers. I'm sure in your life, you've met many. Those are Muslims who are empowered by their faith, instructed by their faith, who feel their their faith encourages them to be grounded in this world and to advance humanity, to, make life on earth better for everyone.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:39:42]:

That's our our shared goal. That is probably a huge common element between Jews and and Muslims. I realized that from my conversations with Jewish participants, it's often like the social justice work in this world is so emphasized, so stressed. And when we are in those dialogue circles where Muslims talk start talking about the afterlife and they are curious to hear from their Jewish partners, they're always puzzled that, like, the afterlife is not really talked in Jewish thought, or, like, it's not really as as much as we, like, think about it. And for Muslims, there's always a moment of bewilderment. I have to admit that. But that's not to say that for Muslims, this world is not equally important. I have to stress that.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:40:27]:

This world is important, and we hold both intention, this world and the afterlife. This world is not enough is not enough and will never be enough to experience happiness fully. That's why this pursuit of happiness is a it's a noble goal, but you get a fatal diagnosis with cancer, what's happening with your pursuit of happiness? Is that it? There's no other option? So that is where I'm coming from, and I think where the tradition wants to hit. You can live all your life. You know, you can work hard, but at the end, there's decline. What do you do? There must be some other alternative to our story. Right? You know, I I read history books, and I still want those injustices to be rectified. There were never tribunals or courts.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:41:15]:

There there was never accountability, and it pains me. Those people never received justice in this world. So there will not be a supreme tribunal. There will not be accountability. I mean, this is something that the that human nature rejects. You read about indigenous children being rubbed off their parents and sent to boarding school and then being discovered in mass graves. God knows what else we will be discovering. But those injustices will not be left alone. And that's why for me, afterlife means also that this world and what we are doing is so important, it will not be dismissed.

 

Méli Solomon [00:41:53]:

Well, our time is basically up, but I I do want to offer you one more opportunity to send out a message from from your heart and your grief. What would you say to other mothers, other parents who are grieving over the loss of a child?

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:42:14]:

Oh, wow. What would I say? Those mothers, those fathers who are grieving, they are my heroes because they are going through the most distressing experience that anyone can imagine. But I hope in in listening a little bit about my experience and that this is not the end of our story and that our children are alive, will be returned to us. They are safe. They are in the most compassionate care. God who has created them once has no difficulty to create them again and resurrect them again and bring us together again. And I believe in that divine promise, and I would love for others to to find comfort in God's promise of that joyous reunion and in his promise of that afterlife and, of his power.

 

Méli Solomon [00:43:12]:

Okay. Well, we'll need to leave it there. Clearly, there is much more we could discuss. Zeyneb, thank you so much for coming on my living our beliefs podcast. I've really appreciated this opportunity to understand more of your experience and your perspective and to to learn from you. Thank you.

 

Zeyneb Sayilgan [00:43:32]:

Thank you, Meli. It was really a pleasure to meet you and have this conversation. Very grateful.

 

Méli Solomon [00:43:41]:

Thanks for listening to my conversation with Zeyneb Sayilgan. If you'd like to hear a similar story, check out my conversation with Elissa Felder, a Jewish woman who also lost a young child and took up the sacred practice of Tahara, preparing a body for burial. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. If you'd like to learn more about that project, links to that and other websites are in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.