Building Peace Through Interfaith Dialogue – Raphael Luzon

Episode 92.  

Jews had lived in Libya since the third century BCE, but 1967 marked their final expulsion from the majority Muslim country. Raphael Luzon was a child at the time and fled with his family. Like many, they went to Italy. Overnight, his environment changed. Gone were his Jewish, Muslim and Catholic classmates. Gone was the exchange of holiday greetings with Muslim neighbors. But all was not lost. Those relationships had planted a seed, and that seed grew. Over the decades since university, Raphael has used his religious and cultural knowledge, along with his Arabic, Italian and English, to work in journalism, management, and interfaith dialogue. Within this latter sphere, he has brought high-level religious leaders like the Dalai Llama and Catholic cardinals together for constructive interfaith discussions. In this conversation, you’ll hear stories of success, disappointment and perseverance. Especially in these trying times, it's good to be reminded that connection is possible and what it takes to reach that goal. 

Highlights: 

• Upbringing as an Orthodox Jew in Libya.
• Instances of "gentleman hypocrisy" and the challenges of integrity in public.
• Overcoming challenges and finding common ground through religious literacy, sacred texts and mutual respect.
• The importance of timing and recognizing when constructive dialogue can occur.
• Participants must be a believer and open-minded, not seeing their religion as the ‘right’ way. 
• Ongoing initiatives like MENA 2050.
• Libyan unity and justice effort.

Bio:  

Raphael was born in Bengasi, Libya. Thrown out of Libya after a bloody pogrom during the “Six Day War”, in 1967 he moved to Rome, Italy, where he lived for 27 years. He then lived in Israel for 6 years, and for the last 24 years, he's lived in the UK.

He completed a degree in Political Science at University of Rome, then worked for 16 years in diplomacy dealing with Organization, Press and Information, Commercial and Economics, and Administration. He was also a press correspondent in Italy, for Israeli newspapers and media, including Maariv and Hadashot and the Israeli Radio Galei Zahal. In Israel Raphael was active in journalism & management. He has also worked for some years as a producer of RAI, Italian TV and I managed to build up the Jerusalem office. 

Raphael was as Manager of a company dealing with Judaica items, books, crafts and silver gifts. He is currently a freelance journalist and analyst regarding the Middle East and Arab world.

Raphael’s major interests include politics, movies, reading, opera, oriental music, travelling, computers and interfaith dialogue.

 Social Media links for Raphael: 

• Website – https://rluzon.net

Transcript on Buzzsprout

Social Media links for Méli:

• Website – the Talking with God Project
• Meli’s email
• LinkedIn – Meli Solomon
• Facebook – Meli Solomon

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The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project.

Transcript

Raphael Luzon transcript

Building Peace Through Interfaith Dialogue

Méli Solomon [00:00:04]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more, check out the link in the show notes.

Méli Solomon [00:00:35]:

Jews had lived in Libya since the third century BCE, but 1967 marked their final expulsion from the majority Muslim country. Raphael Luzon was a child at the time and fled with his family. Like many, they went to Italy. Overnight, his environment changed. Gone were his Jewish, Muslim, and Catholic classmates. Gone was the exchange of holiday greetings with Muslim neighbors. But all was not lost. Those relationships had planted a seed, and that seed grew.

Méli Solomon [00:01:14]:

Over the decades since university, Raphael has used his religious and cultural knowledge along with his Arabic, Italian, and English to work in journalism, management, and interfaith dialogue. Within this latter sphere, he has brought high level religious leaders like the Dalai Lama and Catholic cardinals together for constructive interfaith discussions. In this conversation, you'll hear stories of success, disappointment, and perseverance. Especially in these trying times, it's good to be reminded that connection is possible and what it takes to reach that goal. And now let's turn to our conversation. Hello, Raphael. Welcome to Living Our Beliefs podcast. I'm so pleased to have you on today.

Raphael Luzon [00:02:06]:

Thank you very much.

Méli Solomon [00:02:07]:

I understand that you are Jewish and that you were born in Libya. 

Raphael Luzon 

Correct. 

Méli Solomon 

Can you say a little more about your upbringing and what it was like to be a Jew in Libya in those years?

Raphael Luzon [00:02:20]:

Okay. This is the base for my act actual activity in the interfaith dialogue. Because being born in a Jewish family, Orthodox, in a Islamic country like Libya, And because of, no alternative, I had been raised up my education by the priest, Catholic priest. Therefore, I'm, very confident with the the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran, so nobody can, mess up with me. The life in the Libya as every other Muslim country for Jews. I mean, we lived quite normal. The usual antisemitic attacks, but, not every day. I mean, it happened once a while.

Raphael Luzon [00:03:06]:

But, of course, we had to be under the what they call the Vimy law. That is a law that, made us made us a second level or third level citizen. We couldn't, do several things. We couldn't do work in a a public places. We couldn't do an army. We couldn't do a run run for politics. But, I mean, we cope with this, and, the the jury worked very well, especially after the, 1951 when Libya became independent and they discovered the oil. Lucky them.

Raphael Luzon [00:03:40]:

And then it was a sort of economic boom for also for the Jews. The Jews as usual were very good, people in the economy and finance. We lived very well. Outside, we were a second level citizen. And this is caused me me and other people to be frustrated a bit.

Méli Solomon [00:03:59]:

Yes. I can imagine there were some some difficulties, but I hear that you and the family this was your normal life. This is what you knew. You accommodated it.

Raphael Luzon [00:04:11]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. But, also, the relationship with the with the Arabs, with the Muslims were based on, at least then, on a super great respect. I mean, I remember when I was a child, my, late father used to take us, the the kids and to go to greet the the Muslims, during the the Muslim holy, phase, like Ramadan, like, the and the opposite days for the Jewish festivals. So far, it was not not too bad until the 6465 when they start the the, Nazar movements. So they start demonstration against the Jews and the the squares and the, slogans, especially when something happened in The Middle East. And, our school, was, the most nice melting pot I ever had because of the school with, of course, Christian Catholic pupils, Jews, and, Muslims, and all were together.

Raphael Luzon [00:05:15]:

And, in school, nobody even noticed the difference, just outside the school. And still now, fifty seven years after we've been thrown out for Libya, all these ex pupils, we meet at least once a year, all the same mind and all the same way to thinking, open mind. And this is maybe my base when I organize many activities of interfaith dialogue. Brave people because, you know, especially nowadays to say to for a Muslim to say that he's a direct with a Jew or vice versa, it's also in a risk of life. But, they are very brave when they took the risk, and, many of them had problems. Many of them have been been arrested. But, we'll carry on. We'll carry on.

Méli Solomon [00:06:01]:

I'm struck by what sounds like a a contradiction that you are treated as second class citizens, and yet you went to a school with Muslims and and the Christians, and you were friends, and you're friends to this day. And you greeted each other at holidays. That sounds like a conflict. Am I misunderstanding you?

Raphael Luzon [00:06:22]:

No. No. It's a sort of I call it call it of gentleman hypocrisy. Let's jump in 02/2024. Every day, I'm receiving phone calls from Libyan with I have a very good relationship. And by phone, they are very warm, and they're very friendship. But on the social media, I've been attacked as dirty Jew and everything from the same people. And then they call me back, apologize.

Raphael Luzon [00:06:45]:

Listen. I couldn't say nothing, different. This is what happened in Libya. Officially, they were friends with us, but in this in the in the streets, if someone would insult me, nobody come to defend me. This is what happened the 06/05/1967 when they started big, big, terrible pogrom, and, at least eight people of my family has been slaughtered, truly children. The same people that came one day before to have coffee with us and, chancy together, everything, they didn't move one figure to defend us. Part of them even be part of the attack, unfortunately.

Méli Solomon [00:07:21]:

My condolences. We have seen this in other places. Right? This happened in in Germany in the thirties and certainly in other places as well, friendly to your face and then vilifying you in a more public situation. You've moved from that very complicated childhood into as an adult living in Italy, Israel, and in UK, I believe.

Raphael Luzon [00:07:50]:

Yes.

Méli Solomon [00:07:51]:

I am wondering well, I'm wondering two things. I'm wondering how it is to be a Jew in those different places and whether you have seen that kind of gentleman's hypocrisy also in these other places.

Raphael Luzon [00:08:06]:

I wrote two books, regarding this matters. And in the second book, I said I wrote that, what's happened in the program, and we have been thrown out in just one night, left living, February, the year of, Jewish heritage in Libya. And, and then on the plane, I was only 13 years old. I just start thinking from from now, at the mornings, I will hear instead of the moyezin calling from a Muslim prayer, I will I will hear the bells of the Church Of The Vatican. And this has helped helped us because being in that kind of school when we came to Rome was not something very new for us because we grew up with the Italian language. Until now, I remember by heart all the Christian prayers. As I know, the the basic prayers of the the Muslim, the Quran, because I speak very good Arabic. But when we came to Rome, we leave the situation in Libya.

Raphael Luzon [00:09:06]:

We were in the society, and then we we came back to Rome. This is a very nice city, of course, but, another kind of society. Took us, at least, my by myself, two, three years to organize myself. And then, when I start, talking with, other new guys in the school, and after even in university, about, to dialogue with the other religion, they watched me like I'm coming from Mars. How come you Jew will dialogue with the Muslims? We were in the beginning of the seventies, the Catholic one, they said, but you Jews killed our god, Jesus. And I had sometimes bad, bad moments of not so sympathetic. But, suddenly, I discovered that it works. And I start, very, very small, groups, like, even five, six people, and then 60, and then 600.

Raphael Luzon [00:10:05]:

And I can tell you, the last ten years I've organized many events that of hundreds of people. Two of them are my, like we say, Italian, my flower on the on the jacket. Year February in, in Israel, Tiberias, I organized an interfaith, big convention for three days where I managed to bring, Muslim imam and, orthodox rabbis. And first time, I've been told that was the first time that the Vatican sent the official delegation, leaded by a cardinal to a private convention. The cardinal was cardinal Cesaran, that he was the chairman of the Vatican Commission of the Interfaith dialogue, and, the Dalai Lama, also, Mark Cuban. And they were there, and it was a big challenge because, I had the pressure from the Vladimir Foreign Minister because of the Dalai Lama. They didn't want me to, crush the relationship with China and from Arab side and from everyone's side. But I carry on.

Raphael Luzon [00:11:09]:

And when I saw after the first two, three hours, these leaders, religious leaders, hand in hand in front of the lake and chanting for peace and and, praying for peace, I was the one of the best, moment of my life. Of course, I didn't do everything in that alone. I'm not a lone wolf. I have always a lot of people that helped me. Very hard work, but at the end, I was very, very happy. And the second flower I told you is a few years ago in, Rhodes Islands in Greek. I managed to bring for a convention of four days Arab minister not in diplomatic relation with Israel, together with Israeli minister and, Iraqi ministers and, religious, personalities from the three religion, the. Also then, I had against me all these people, the Arabs, the Muslims, and the Jews, and the Christian because, Luzon has done something that even that our best ambassador haven't reached.

Raphael Luzon [00:12:09]:

I was very proud that when they started the convention, one of the journalists that was there, especially one journalist on Al Jazeera, very known, They came to me, told me I don't know if you know, but the the Old Maid Bank of Libya, they launched in a pin to pray the, Friday prayer against the success of the roads. I thought, I'm very proud. Thanks to God that at the end of the third day was a huge success. You know, people really ate together, discussed together, danced together. And I have all the pictures, all the videos, you know, they are not stories. Can you want to organize this kind of stuff? Believe it or not, the place where Mora had difficulties to organize this kind of stuff was Italy. Italy because, you know, Rome is the center of the catholic people, the pope, and, I had many times, clashes with the the cardinals. And, I remember that when I start organizing, help them to organize the the visit of John Paul the second in February in Israel.

Raphael Luzon [00:13:13]:

I I start having a discussion with the cardinal about religion. So the second cardinal that he knows me from Rome, he told him, it's not worth to go in the debate with Luzon because he could with you with the arguments. So I told him, all these people, you know, the rabbis, the imam, the priests are all because we are not saying the truth. The truth is written in this holy books. It is not the truth that you are delivered to to the people, to the masses. Of course. Wow. This involves a lot of people, being a bit angry with me about that.

Raphael Luzon [00:13:50]:

Even now, what happened now in The Middle East, now it's based on the religion. You know, the Islamist said you have to cancel the Jews. They're not saying cancel Israel is also bad, but they cancel the Jews. So when I when I quote the Quran and their prophet, Mohammed, and say it's written this, this, this, this. Yes. But, you know, there are many interpretations. It's not interpretation. It's written, black and white.

Raphael Luzon [00:14:15]:

And while you are doing something else so there are two reaction. Either they join me in the the battle or they run away from me because, you know, these people have no argument to to face me, so they run away. They're not challenged.

Méli Solomon [00:14:32]:

What I'm hearing is you organize leaders, really significant major. I mean, the, you know, cardinals and Dalai Lama and all of that to speak together. This is very much a top down message, and other efforts are more a bottom up. Right? Gathering people who are not major leaders to form relationships and and try to work together. Is it true that you really focus on the leadership level and are not maybe not so supportive of, or you just don't feel it's your place to to help ordinary citizens to engage in interfaith dialogue and have, improved relationships between the religions?

Raphael Luzon [00:15:23]:

No. I'm using the the low level quality of this to arrive to the high level. For instance, for the for the Tiberia, convention, I've passed through many Catholic organization in Rome, and each one sent me to someone higher than him, neither him until I arrived to the Vatican. So I arrived to the Vatican as friend of the friend of the friend was much easier than I'm going to approach the Vatican directly. Who are you?

Raphael Luzon [00:15:51]:

Right. But that is a matter of moving through gatekeepers

Raphael Luzon [00:15:54]:

Yeah. As

Raphael Luzon [00:15:55]:

opposed to assisting ground level gatherings.

Raphael Luzon [00:16:03]:

But also the opposite. I'm using some people that I was in and are still in the good relation with them that are the leaders to convince the ground level, say, listen. The boss is coming. Why do you don't enjoy us? So it's all two ways, double ways. This is very important because, you know, the the more damage for the dialogue dialogue are the extremists of the various religion. As they give their interpretation, carry to excess of the dictates, you know, they have their own interpretation, and they sell it like what is written. But it's not written. I I I challenge also all the time also the rabbis about some some themes, some subjects.

Raphael Luzon [00:16:42]:

Where is it that everyone has to be black? No. In North Africa, all our rabbi were in white. White, black. So when they when they say we have no answer, I thought, no. I I I hope you. I would like to help you. I'll give the answer. So they start to try to imitate the press important that were you read.

Raphael Luzon [00:17:03]:

They wanted doesn't want to to be different, so to be assimilated. It's not from there, but it's not ours. It's not the Jews.

Méli Solomon [00:17:10]:

I think there are two other things that that fit into that. One is a bit of law in Torah becomes a cultural norm and then is ossified. Then it almost becomes a law as well. So there's this bit of a cyclical thing. There's also the concern within the Jewish community about building a fence around a fence around a fence in order to protect, something that is is terribly important. Do you see that in those other communities? Is this why you see the hanging on to old forms and more extremism?

Raphael Luzon [00:17:49]:

It's different. Regarding the the Christianity, I noticed a difference, to going down the fences. This is why I have a lot of people that that like the Christianity. Because if you are a Jew, you cannot do one, two, three, six hundred and 13 things that you are. Okay. The the Christian, no. The Christian, I mean, take your example to sit down, have lunch. The the Jew had to breath before, during, and after.

Raphael Luzon [00:18:19]:

The Christian, they just made the the sign and finished the story. The Muslim, the other side, they have no offense. They have directly they have to kill you. I kill you. I will not give you a chance to to and this is also this is why the Islam is so extreme because it's literally the Koran, unfortunately. Many bad things, but it's always a matter of interpretation. When it's written in Torah that, eye by eye and, you know

Raphael Luzon [00:18:46]:

Eye for an eye and for an eye. The the meaning is that if I cause damage to your eyes, I have to to pay you to, refund you the cost of the eye, not with the other eye, taking another eye. But the Muslim is the opposite. If they they cannot understand forgiveness, unfortunately, and they have the revenge is something basic in in in Islam. I mean, if you cause me a damage, I have to wash it with the air with blood. This is known. The other thing that I always had a big, I mean, still big debates with the Muslims, that's something called Taqiyah. Taqiyah, that is the Quran allow to lie to reach the matter.

Raphael Luzon [00:19:28]:

They lie. It is normal for them. This is why I try to put together the the two sides, explain it to the non Muslims, don't condemn them. It's written in the Quran. They cannot go against their religion. They can do an interpretation to facilitate this, like the the truth with the eye by eye. But this this is our our our battle with other lot of people. Hello? I'm sure that you know hear the the name of, Rabbi David Rosen.

Raphael Luzon [00:19:53]:

David Rosen is one of the most, world leaders. He's, active now fifty years in interfaith dialogue. He participate many times to our activities. And he, thereby, that, nominated now many years from the World Jewish Congress to be the official, representative of the Jews in The Vatican. He knows personally at least three, four popes. We are very close friends. He was the youngest chief rabbi in Ireland, and then the he immigrated to Israel to Israel. He lived in Israel officially, but he living on a plane. Just before this big mess start in Gaza, we were organizing in a convention in Morocco, and then everything broke.

Méli Solomon [00:20:38]:

You've spoken with many high level people. Are there people or groups that you have not been able to bring together or speak with that you would like to?

Raphael Luzon [00:20:50]:

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. With the prime minister ex-prime minister, Giuliano D'Rotti, Italian prime minister, is one of the most known politician in Italy and since, until he died because he was nine times, prime minister. He create, together with me and other people, an organization, they call it dialogue. Not dialogue, dialogue.

Méli Solomon [00:21:12]:

Nice.

Raphael Luzon [00:21:13]:

Yeah. Trialogue where they start doing some activities. And then because they had some, problems because, someone, said that he was in touch with the mafia or something like that. So the we we block it this. But, the still the people that we are we were organizing this, till today, they tell me, listen. Just try to build up the trial because it's a good idea. And, also, we are trying to do it. But every time, unfortunately, our obstacles are what happened in the in Middle East. It's enough, a small battle. So everything is back to square one. But we would carry on.

Méli Solomon [00:21:52]:

You you're not giving up?

Raphael Luzon [00:21:54]:

No. No. No. Absolutely not.

Méli Solomon [00:21:56]:

Okay. So this trialogue, who on the current scene would you want to, bring together?

Raphael Luzon [00:22:03]:

It's very important to be religious or or to believer. Let's say, not religious. Believers and, open minded. I mean, I don't need people that say, my religion is right and the other not. No. I've always used this, call it slogan or or or phrase that I say, the almighty or the god or whatever you want is too big to pass through one religion. It has to pass through many religions to express itself. And this is always my credo.

Raphael Luzon [00:22:32]:

I mean, because, if people believe that creator creates everyone, everything, so the creator creates also the religion. Why create many religions and not one one? I my my opinion is my personal opinion is too big too vast to pass only through one religion. You understand? You need more filters.

Méli Solomon [00:22:55]:

The creator is too big to pass through just one religion, so we need multiple religions.

Raphael Luzon [00:23:00]:

Exactly. On one hand. On the other hand, I always when some people trying to put me in difficulties and say, give me an example why you believe in god. I never bring the example of a big mountain or the ocean. One small microscopic ant has got inside intestine, heart. This is the the the big the the benefits of God or of the this supreme, entity. Call it. Okay? So this is the because, no. You don't see god is big. No. No. Create me an ant, and I will be god for me.

Méli Solomon [00:23:39]:

Yeah. That's a beautiful image. And it reminds me of this, dual phrase that I love so much from our Jewish tradition. For me, the whole world was created, and I am but dust. And that duality for me is is instructive as an approach to living this life.

Raphael Luzon [00:24:01]:

Correct.

Méli Solomon [00:24:02]:

That it is important to be both humble that is occupying your appropriate amount of space as well as recognizing that you are made in the image of God. And and for you, the universe was made.

Raphael Luzon [00:24:14]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Méli Solomon [00:24:16]:

Do you find that that sort of idea comes into play in your interfaith dialogue?

Raphael Luzon [00:24:23]:

Yes. What is, upsetting me that the idea of interfaith dialogue is valid. And the people when I start to speak with people that I have not approached before, they all get excited. But a minority has the braveness to say, okay. Let's do it. Always you'll find the one that yeah. But what what will say my rabbi? What the imam will, maybe they'll condemn me? We go against, the church. Everyone is is convinced, but has not the braveness and the security inside security to say, let's let's start the the way.

Raphael Luzon [00:25:03]:

But when we when we did success add success to organize many activities, then, you know, your heart is open. Because you see how many people believe believe in the same thing you believe, and, there's no there's no borders. It doesn't matter if he is Muslim or Jew or Christian, or or or Dalai Lama when he came. You know? He was fantastic. He's fantastic person. I was in touch with him many many times. And, I remember one small episode, nothing to do with religion. When he came, the diplomats of the foreign minister, told me, just be sure that he will not speak about China, attack China.

Raphael Luzon [00:25:44]:

So when he land he came to the VIP room, I told him, listen. Outside, there are hundreds of journalists. Please don't speak about China. Do me a favor. He told me, if they will not ask me about China, I will not answer about China. I was shocked.

Méli Solomon [00:26:03]:

This could not be of a surprise to him. I mean, this was always an issue for him. Right? I mean, this was not a new new problem.

Raphael Luzon [00:26:10]:

Yeah. Exactly. Yes.

Méli Solomon [00:26:12]:

So this business about people needing to be brave to enter the interfaith dialogue, I think this is so true. What I'm hearing is that it's difficult to begin, but then once it gets going, people's hearts are open and the dialogue flows. Is that correct?

Raphael Luzon [00:26:29]:

Exactly. Exactly. Correct. Yes.

Méli Solomon [00:26:31]:

Do you think that someone needs to begin with something, a little crack of an open heart in order to begin? Are there some people with whom it is just impossible to have a dialogue?

Raphael Luzon [00:26:46]:

No. Based on my experience, now it's forty forty five years since I'm dealing with this. What it it can it can help is to have example. I was bringing the example of Rabbi Roselle. When you start, as like I start, you immediately start opening the attacks from the three parts. The Jews, because you are betrayed. The Muslim, because you are dirty Jew. The Christian, because you killed God, whatever. And you have to be brave because it's not everyone can manage these attacks. The best thing is not to to defend myself, to attack. But to attack, you have to have basic deep knowledge.

Méli Solomon [00:27:31]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I I can totally understand that, and I agree with this need for deep knowledge. I'm a little surprised, though, about this attack. You need to attack. That for me is really counter to the fundamental basis for interfaith dialogue. Am I misunderstanding something?

Raphael Luzon [00:27:54]:

Yeah. I expressed myself not well. If someone come to you and say, if he's a Christian, say, you killed God. Attack to is not saying, no. I didn't kill it. No. Why you say to kill God? The evidence. When the Quran say, you are, you have we need to slaughter you because it's written. So no. How do you can you quote the Quran without knowing exactly what is written? Just based on the what you told you in the imam. This is what attack. Not to justify yourself. No. Sorry. I'm a Jew. Sorry. No. No. Not sorry.

Méli Solomon [00:28:25]:

Right. So what you're really saying is to counter the argument with scripture. You're saying to counter it with scripture.

Raphael Luzon [00:28:33]:

I'm now, the last three years, one of the three general director of a huge international organization called MENA 2050. MENA is, is a Middle East North Africa. The members of this organization are Christian, Jews, Muslim. They're from Saudi, from Bahrain, from Morocco, from, everyone. And this have a huge program that is, promoted interfaith, interreligious, communication, educate people on the core teachings of different faiths, the importance of unity. Each one has not to convince the other to come to his religion, but to have a unity of of intent, open minded, workshops, use panel discussion, shared prayer and reflection every once a year or something like that. And this is will help. Although it's not an organization based on interfaith, but it's interdialogue.

Raphael Luzon [00:29:27]:

Not only religion, but cooperation between Middle East and North Africa people to develop the region where the the base is, if I stay well economically, I have no time to to think about this extremism, to to fight, this or that. You know, one of the best period of my life, usually, the spring. I enjoy to stay hours just to watch the flowers and the the birds and everything. So why I have to think I have to kill this, I have to fight that one is useless. You know?

Méli Solomon [00:30:02]:

Yeah. I I really like this new perspective that hate is useless. It's unhelpful. It's a waste of energy. So why do that? This is helpful wording. I am going to carry that forward. When we talk about interfaith or intercultural, as you were saying with me in a 2050 Yeah. Intercultural dialogue and exchange and engagement, I read this about you that that it's really for peace.

Raphael Luzon [00:30:30]:

Yes.

Méli Solomon [00:30:30]:

And I'm wondering, what does peace mean for you?

Raphael Luzon [00:30:34]:

Once, a university, it was a taxi driver that he told me something that I always remember. He told me, for me, ideal work is do whatever you want, one condition. Don't harm me. Don't harass me. If everyone would think the same way, nobody would have no one. Being in the Libya with, being a Jew, I was many times bullied in in the school. And it was, someone that was big and very fat, used to come to me and take my sandwich and eat it. So I will remain all the time without sandwich.

Raphael Luzon [00:31:10]:

So I start thinking what I have to do. Either I will pay few cents to some people that will, beat him. So I went to my mother, and I told her, listen. From tomorrow, I don't want one sandwich. I want two sandwiches. She was very happy. Oh, fantastic. You you start eating because I was problematic to for eat.

Raphael Luzon [00:31:27]:

And then the day after, I thought, listen. This is your sandwich, and this is mine. Okay? Say, okay. You will bring it every day early. Since then, we became excellent friends. So so you can imagine that that this is the way. Why you have to fight if you think that you were not chance to and you will not change him? If you fight, you will become more and more nervous, more and more reaction. I brought to him. He was not so happy. He felt really guilty. Say, oh, I'm sorry that your mother said, don't worry. She's very happy to make. So the whole year, he had the second sandwich. I had my sandwich at least. I ate once a day.

Méli Solomon [00:32:05]:

Yeah. It it's helpful to rethink what we think of as a power position and as a weak position. You're providing some really important and valuable, reframing of these roles, so I appreciate that. When you think about the many events you have pulled together, when was a time when you felt that your efforts to bring together failed?

Raphael Luzon [00:32:31]:

When something happened internationally, like September 11, like, worse, in in, Middle East. So the the peak is down, not up. After October, if I even even mention something about the dialogue, interfere dialogue, go away. What? No way. No no hope. You won't win. So, usually, I'm leaving the the storm passing by, then slowly slowly will start again.

Méli Solomon [00:32:59]:

So it's about timing and waiting until you sense an opportunity.

Raphael Luzon [00:33:04]:

Exactly. Yes.

Méli Solomon [00:33:05]:

Yeah. I have heard this from many people who are doing interfaith or peacebuilding work in Israel, Palestine. They say, yes, right now, it's just impossible or near impossible. As the storm is passing, though or you mentioned spring a bit ago. What are the little beginning, sprouts that you see that say, okay. The time is now coming again

Raphael Luzon [00:33:29]:

Mhmm.

Méli Solomon [00:33:29]:

To bring people together to constructive dialogue. What are those little sprouts?

Raphael Luzon [00:33:35]:

The sprouts can be episodes of something or stories. These are stories of, nice stories. I'm taking some episodes or some small stories, positive, and to develop it.

Méli Solomon [00:33:46]:

What I'm hearing from you, Raphael, is keeping an ear to the news and waiting for the stories. Do you also feel that there is a way to generate that goodwill?

Raphael Luzon [00:33:59]:

Always there is a way, but the side that I'll never succeed is the extremists. The extremists, they are so convinced nothing will change there. I'm very sorry for one category of people, mothers. Even a mother of a terrorist is a mother. Despite he is terrorist, I feel sorry for her because even the terrorist deserve to be killed. But once he is killed, the mothers cry for him.

Méli Solomon [00:34:28]:

Yeah. I wonder about that too, how the mothers feel. What is their experience and how much their heart must be breaking? You have written quite a lot, in fact, a whole book on the Jews of Libya.

Raphael Luzon [00:34:41]:

Yes.

Méli Solomon [00:34:42]:

I find it really fascinating that although Jews were expelled a long time ago, and as I understand, there's hardly any Jews left in Libya, if any, that this remains a focus for you. And I wonder what are your hopes and wishes for the Jews whose family come from Libya?

Raphael Luzon [00:35:07]:

Two answers. First of all, despite that we have been expelled fifty-seven years ago, they expel us from Libya, but they couldn't expel Libya from us. When I say this, I'm not talking about the the country Libya. I'm talking about our heritage, our, environment, our, experience. We had the big rabbis. We had the writers. We had the I mean, this is we cannot take out for us. And, also, what the most of the Libyan Jews, also most of the Arab of the Jews from Arab country, they're, you know, the food, how do you, celebrate some festivals or this or that.

Raphael Luzon [00:35:46]:

This is one. The the hope is not hope. I mean, I'm very involved what happened in Libya. I also been a mediator between some groups, and I'm in very good relation with with with the two governments. You know? In Libya, there are two governments. So I have good relationship. What I'm seeking is that even not revenge or nothing. Just one thing, justice.

Raphael Luzon [00:36:08]:

Why? Because the in the last program in Libya in '67, they killed 17 Jews. Eight of them were my family, my father, brother, his wife, and six children. The smallest one was two years old, and the oldest one was 18 years old. That's because, of the being Jew. So when I met Gaddafi just a few months before before he they took him down, I told him, listen. You're for something that you perhaps didn't do, the local b terror attack on on the plane. You paid 1,000,000 and a half dollar to each body. I don't want talk about money, but I want justice.

Raphael Luzon [00:36:50]:

So he answer me, what do you want me to do? I told him, listen. I want I know where these people has been buried altogether in a collective barrier. I want there to put a sign, monument. He answered me very well. He say, write the the sign, and I will put it. I told you, I want also he took me in the morning. He sent me with one of his to see a small synagogue that he had refurbished as a archeological. I told her, listen.

Raphael Luzon [00:37:18]:

In this synagogue that you referred us, although they are not Jews, okay, let's do their small convention with academic Jew of Libya and academic Muslim of Libya to try to speak together to this discuss the the past we had together and the hope for the future. Say, write the program, and I will do it. Unfortunately, after a few months, it went down and back to square one. My hope is the to open the mind of the Libyans officially because, privately, they're open minded. I told you they speak speaks with me by telephone and by social very nicely, but, publicly, they curse me. Okay. So this is my hope. The the Libyan offer for justice.

Raphael Luzon [00:37:59]:

No Jew of Libya want to go back to live there, but most of them, even the second and third generation, seeking to go there to visit the the ancient, you know, places. When I went there after forty two years because I received an invitation from Gaddafi, I was very emotional to see the house where I bought because I bought in a house. I mean, this is nice. This is my hope. My hope that this virus is the health of its effect will spread out with other people.

Méli Solomon [00:38:29]:

Well, with the hope for a better future and reconciliation, we close this wonderful conversation. Raphael , thank you so much for coming on my living our beliefs podcast. This has been wonderful, and I so appreciate your expertise and your knowledge and the generosity of spirit.

Raphael Luzon [00:38:50]:

Thank you all for having me. Thank you.

Méli Solomon [00:38:54]:

Thank you for listening. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. If you'd like to learn more about that project, a link to the website is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.