Bonus. The Mormon Church is More Than You Think (Rick Bennett)

Episode 87. 
The timing of this Bonus episode is auspicious given the recent debate regarding learning about the history of race in America, the book bans, and the current administration’s aim to eliminate the federal department of education. While each of these issues are complex and engage different issues, they share the matter of understanding our history – all of it. And our history leads into what we do today. As part of my ongoing encouragement to know each other’s faith and religion, Rick Bennett, host of the Gospel Tangents, a Mormon History podcast, has joined me to talk about the many splinter groups within the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-Day Saints, otherwise known as the LDS church or the Mormons. Whatever you might think or know about this church, I encourage you to listen with an open mind and heart. Rick is a passionate researcher and brings humor and curiosity to his work.

Highlights:
·       Mormon splinter groups.

·       Joseph Smith: synchronizing the Old Testament and New Testament 

·       Religions are seen as cults at their beginning. 

·       Common miracles today.

·       Studies on faith healings and the placebo effect.

·       Succession, polygamy and theological disagreements.

·       The LDS church as the “One True Church”.

Bio:
Rick Bennett is the host of the Gospel Tangents, a Mormon History podcast. He is an expert on various Mormon schismatic groups, presenting at the Mormon History Association, and other Mormon history groups. He is an academic authenticity advisor at Western Governors University and teaches math and statistics at Utah Valley University. Rick holds a Master of Statistics Degree from the University of Utah. He has worked as a research biostatistician in the fields of Dermatology and Traumatic Brian Injuries and works in the network television/cable T.V. industries as a sports statistician.

Social Media links for Rick:
Website – https://gospeltangents.com
YouTube – https://youtube.com/gospeltangents
Patreon – https://patreon.com/gospeltangents

Transcript on Buzzsprout

More Episodes with Mormons:
Shane Adamson
Margaret Agard
Zachary Davis

Social Media links for Méli:

Website – the Talking with God Project

Meli’s email

LinkedIn – Meli Solomon

Facebook – Meli Solomon

Follow the podcast!
The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. Understanding how other people live opens your mind and heart to new people you meet. 

The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/

Transcript

Rick Bennett transcript 

The Mormon Church is More Than You Think

Méli Solomon [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meili Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more, check out the link in the show notes. The timing of this bonus episode is auspicious. Given the recent debate regarding learning about the history of race in America, the book bans, and the current administration's aim to eliminate the federal Department of Education.

Méli Solomon [00:00:53]:

While each of these issues are complex and engage different issues, they share the matter of understanding our history, all of it. And our history leads into what we do today. As part of my ongoing encouragement to know each other's faith and religion, Rick Bennett, host of Gospel Tangents, a Mormon History podcast, has joined me to talk about the many splinter groups within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, otherwise known as the LDS Church or the Mormons. Whatever you might think or know about this church, I encourage you to listen with an open mind and heart. Rick is a passionate researcher and brings humor and curiosity to his work. And now let's turn to our conversation. Hello, Rick. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I'm really pleased to have you on today.

Rick Bennett [00:01:54]:

I'm excited to be here.

Méli Solomon [00:01:56]:

So we're going to be talking about your really interesting research on the various Mormon groups. But first, I just want to better understand your religious background. So I understand you are a Mormon, or I should properly say a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Rick Bennett [00:02:22]:

I'm impressed that you know that that's, like, a big deal anymore. You can call me a Mormon. I'm totally fine with that, but our leader doesn't like this to be called Mormons anymore.

Méli Solomon [00:02:31]:

Okay. So you're in the LDS church. Were you raised in that, or is that something that's changed?

Rick Bennett [00:02:40]:

Yeah. I was I was raised in the LDS church. My my father was a convert to the church, and my mother was a lifelong member as well. So I kinda feel like, you know, sometimes they ask, do you have a pioneer background? And I kind of do on one side and but I don't on the other. So I'm I'm kind of a mixed background there.

Méli Solomon [00:02:57]:

I hadn't heard that term, that you have a pioneer background. What does that mean?

Rick Bennett [00:03:03]:

The LDS church started actually in New York, and they kept getting kicked out of places. They got kicked out of Ohio. They got kicked out of Missouri. They got kicked out of Illinois. When they left Illinois, they left the United States and went to what at the time was Mexico. But during the process of moving, you know, the the pioneers moved from a place called Nauvoo, Illinois to what's now Salt Lake City, Utah. So they talk about the the Mormons who moved to, at the time, Mexico, now the United States. And so we refer to them as the pioneers.

Rick Bennett [00:03:37]:

And so, that happened in 1847. So my ancestors on my mom's side were pioneers in the 1857 wagon trains that moved from, Illinois to to Utah, or it's now Utah. At the time, it was Mexico.

Méli Solomon [00:03:55]:

I think you are the first person I've ever spoken with who actually has family heritage way back to pioneers heading west. Okay. So lifelong Mormon, when did this fascination with groups outside the main I'm not quite sure what term to use, the the main church?

Rick Bennett [00:04:21]:

Yeah. You can say just LDS church. When when people think of the Mormon church, it's it's generally the LDS church. And just to give some people some context, there's about 17,000,000 Mormons in the world. And when you refer to the Mormon church or the LDS church, it's the same thing, it's what everybody thinks of. Very few people know about some of the other groups. And so to answer your question, I got married in the year 2000. And in 2002, I became acquainted with, another so called Mormon church called the Community of Christ.

Rick Bennett [00:04:54]:

So LDS Church, 17,000,000, Community of Christ, about 250,000. That's the 2nd largest, and it's not very large. And then the 3rd largest is called the Church of Jesus Christ. It's based in Monongahela, Pennsylvania. They have about 25,000 numbers, I think. So the LDS church rebuilt the destroyed Nauvoo Temple. In 2002, they had a dedication where you could come and and walk through the temple. So when we went to Nauvoo and I and there were these sites that were not owned by my church, I was like, what? How come we don't own the Joseph Smith home? And so I I just became fascinated with these other Mormons.

Rick Bennett [00:05:38]:

And so that's that's really where my my interest began. And then I think I got on Wikipedia one time and I was like, the Church of Christ Temple like, what is that? You know, and then I found out that there's over 400 Mormon groups. Now they're they're tiny for the most part. The LDS Church is kind of Jupiter. And then, you know, the community of Christ is kind of Mercury. And then the rest of them are just a bunch of moons. So they're just so much smaller. But, anyway, that's that's where my fascination began, was back in 2002. So. Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:06:11]:

So this is over 20 years now.

Rick Bennett [00:06:14]:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Méli Solomon [00:06:16]:

Yeah. That is pretty wild. It sounds like it was kind of an astonishing moment of discovery for you.

Rick Bennett [00:06:24]:

Well and it's one of my favorite questions because most people know about the community of Christ because that's the 2nd largest. The in the FLDS church, they've been in the news because their leader's in jail for polygamy and underage marriages and stuff like that. So that's really a small church, but but it's newsworthy. And so people know about those 3. And I will say, how many Mormon churches are there? And I will say, give me a big number, and they'll be like, 6. And I'm like, 400. And they're like, what? So people don't know about this. And I'm just, like, so fascinated.

Rick Bennett [00:06:58]:

I just really geek out on this stuff. 

Méli Solomon [00:07:02]:

So there's clearly a lot of history here. I mean, I I it seems like the main question is, why? Why are there 400 subgroups or floating planets or whatever image we wanna use? I'm I'm thinking about other religious groups I've spoken with, and I'm thinking about my own Jewish community. There are certainly subgroups. I think other Christian denominations have minor subgroups, but I have never heard anything at the scale that you're talking about, Rick. So this really is, in my view, an outlier, and I do want to better understand how this came about, and what does this mean for the church? Okay. So that's kind of generally what I'm curious about. But let let's start with the why do you think there are 400 subgroups?

Rick Bennett [00:08:11]:

Well, two reasons. If we look at Christianity, there are probably 3,000 denominations within Christianity. So 400 is actually kind of small compared to Christianity, in general. So so that's that's one of the reasons. Somebody, you know, Martin Luther or John Calvin or or whoever gets up and says, I think, you know, the Catholic church should be reformed this way. Well, it happens in Mormonism too. And and in a way, it's kind of baked into our history. In 18/20, Joseph Smith was a 14-year-old boy, and he wanted to know which church to join.

Rick Bennett [00:08:50]:

And he went out into the woods in New York, and he prayed. And he had a vision of Jesus and God the father appearing to him. As Joseph Smith tells the story, he was told that he should join none of them for they were all wrong. And I know that's offensive to my Christian friends, and it's offensive to everybody else, but that's that's the story. And we have to history is messy. We have to deal with the story the way it was told. Between 18/20/18/30, he had a series of visions and revelations. And I know that that story, if you're not LDS, that's that's going to be a hard pill to swallow.

Rick Bennett [00:09:26]:

You know, we think Joseph is kind of a modern-day Moses or Adam or Noah or, you know, the ancient biblical prophets. And Joseph drew a lot of inspiration from the Bible Because it was founded this way, there are other people who have visions. When I hear this man in England had a had an angel Moroni come to him and gave him some plates, and that Stonehenge is basically a Mormon temple. I kind of scratch my head and say, that's kind of a strange story. And then I realize how my story sounds to other people that haven't heard about gold plates and the angel Moroni and God appearing to Joseph. And I go, oh, wow. You know, I I have empathy for for people who don't believe my story because I don't I don't really believe Matthew Gill's story in England either. So so you know? But but it's kinda baked into Mormonism.

Rick Bennett [00:10:24]:

If you believe in angels and you believe in God, that God can come to man and then talk to you. There's a kind of a polygamous area in the Utah, Arizona border. And my friend, Lindsey Hanson Park, says, you throw a rock and you're gonna hit, you know, 3 different prophets that that have their own churches. So so it's kinda baked into Mormonism.

Méli Solomon [00:10:46]:

Yeah. Interesting. So 2 things. 1 is I think this is a really interesting and provocative even question of what do we believe and what do other people believe, and how do those beliefs shift from weird stories to the basis of of a religion that's publicly recognized? I think that's fundamentally what we're talking about, whether it's Mormonism or something else.

Rick Bennett [00:11:15]:

Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:11:16]:

Right? Every religion at the beginning is seen as a cult.

Rick Bennett [00:11:21]:

Right. Absolutely.

Méli Solomon [00:11:22]:

And lots of them develop and most of them fall away. Right? They don't develop enough adherence. They don't have enough stickiness

Rick Bennett [00:11:33]:

Mhmm.

Méli Solomon [00:11:33]:

To really grow. But if they do, then they become a religion.

Rick Bennett [00:11:40]:

Right.

Méli Solomon [00:11:40]:

I think that's fundamentally what we're talking about. But to compare the 1800s with the age of Judaism or Christianity, I think that's part of what people trip over. How can it be possible that in 1800 or today in 2024 that someone might have a vision, feel that they have heard from God, and they are going to strike out in a new direction. Is that your sense of it, or am I blowing smoke here?

Rick Bennett [00:12:16]:

No. I mean, I think, you know, you're asking the question that anybody who's not a Mormon is gonna ask. Like, why would you believe that? But, you know, Joseph Smith, he he was a big Bible reader. He really wanted to bring the Old Testament and the New Testament together. And so a lot of the beliefs of Mormonism really tie the prophet, whether that's Russell M. Nelson, the current prophet, or Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young, to the days of old Noah, Adam, you know, all the Old Testament prophets. And we also bring in the the 12 apostles in the New Testament. And so Joseph really tried to synchronize all of these things.

Rick Bennett [00:12:57]:

You know, a lot of Protestant or Christian denominations kind of say, well, we don't Old Testament, we don't really we're the New Testament people. And Joseph wanted to combine. He didn't wanna throw out the Old Testament. He wanted to he wanted to believe that. He believed the stories of Moses and David and Solomon and, you know, all of the biblical prophets. And he wanted to show that, you know, God's plan was we're gonna call a prophet, and and we're just gonna keep going. And then when Jesus came, he called 12 Apostles. And so we've incorporated that into our church as well.

Rick Bennett [00:13:29]:

We have 12 Apostles just like Jesus did. And, you know, if you're not a believer, it sounds like a fantastic story. It is. It really is. We we believe in miracles, so miracles can happen.

Méli Solomon [00:13:44]:

And you believe that miracles can happen also today, or is the time for miracle ended with Joseph Smith?

Rick Bennett [00:13:53]:

Well, you know, it's funny as we study the different, the different groups, some of them believe in more miracles than than us. So the short answer is yes. We believe miracles can happen. We don't really publicize those.

Méli Solomon [00:14:07]:

Okay. So miracles can happen also today. Could you give me an example of fairly recent miracle that you have heard about in your research?

Rick Bennett [00:14:20]:

So I attended the 3rd largest Mormon denomination. I'm gonna use the word Mormon even though I'm not supposed to. But I I'm discussing the broader Mormon movement, not just my church. Would sometimes we refer to it as the Bickertonite Church. We call it that because it's named after the founder, William Bickerton. My church would be the Brighamites because Brigham Young brought everybody to Utah. And then the RLDS church would be the Josephites because Joseph Smith the third was the leader of that one. So anyway, just to distinguish because all of our churches have really similar names.

Rick Bennett [00:14:52]:

So my church, this is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The 2nd largest used to be called The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. 3rd largest is called The Church of Jesus Christ. It's really easy to get these things confused. So anyway, the Bickertonight Church, I went there and they have a meeting where everybody gets up. And it was funny because that particular Sunday, everybody was talking about miracles. Like somebody was burned really bad, and they they prayed and blessed them. And then they were able to live. In my church, frequently, you'll hear missionaries returning home, and they didn't know the language very well.

Rick Bennett [00:15:31]:

And, you know, they were teaching the gospel to somebody, and all of a sudden, the language just came to them, and they spoke with the spirit, and and the person understood everything that they said. Miracles of healings are fairly common. You'll hear those in any religious denomination. In my church, even today, we had a person speak and she said that every time she prays, she gets an answer to a prayer. Now, she didn't really specify what the miracle was, but she viewed that as a miracle. You know, they can be tiny things. Saving people from car accidents or death is pretty common. But those are the kind of the miracles that that you will hear about in Mormon churches.

Méli Solomon [00:16:13]:

A miracle. Something fantastical happens that one can't explain by others some kind of logical means.

Rick Bennett [00:16:20]:

Right.

Méli Solomon [00:16:21]:

So saving someone from a car accident was one of your examples.

Rick Bennett [00:16:28]:

Yeah. I mean, I can tell you a a story of a a woman that I know. She's lived in Iowa. She's a member of the 2nd largest church, the community of Christ, and she was not even a member of that church. And but she knew some members of the church, and she was in a serious car accident. She was a new mother. Her child was in the back seat. Child was uninjured, but she hit the steering wheel and, was told that she would be paralyzed.

Rick Bennett [00:16:56]:

She had a a community of Christ elder come and administer. A lot of times when LDS or RLDS church, we will anoint the person with oil and then and then pray a blessing upon them. And she had that done to her, and she was healed. She didn't even have scars. Like, she she said her face was just bloody. And, you know, she hit the windshield and the steering wheel. She had internal injuries. She was in the hospital for a couple weeks, but she walked.

Rick Bennett [00:17:24]:

She viewed that as a complete miracle that, you know, everybody was worried that she was gonna be paralyzed, and she's she's healthy. She views that as a total miracle. She she can't explain why she wasn't paralyzed.

Méli Solomon [00:17:36]:

Especially in that kind of realm where there's an accident, there are physical injuries that then somehow are healed in a way you can't explain. How does the church see the medical community? Because you say she was in the hospital.

Rick Bennett [00:17:56]:

Yes.

Méli Solomon [00:17:56]:

So, I'm not hearing I was healed without any kind of medical intervention. Is that correct?

Rick Bennett [00:18:07]:

Yeah. We believe in medical intervention. And if you break your arm, please go to the doctor because we're not just gonna heal your broken arm. It's through the power of God that you can be healed. But we also believe that you need medical attention. Get it. Please get it.

Méli Solomon [00:18:21]:

When you think about these different miracles, is there any kind of well, the word that comes to mind is proof text. I mean, is there any kind of a testing, or is it just you take their word for it and everybody agrees, oh, yeah, that was a miracle because they said it?

Rick Bennett [00:18:40]:

Here, let me put my skeptic hat on for a minute. One of my favorite skeptic things is to talk about faith healings. So they've done some scientific studies where a patient was told, we're praying for you. We're gonna pray that you'll get better. And then they pray for them. And then another group, they would pray for the patient, but they wouldn't tell the patient. And they wanted to see is there a difference? And it turns out that there is. Some skeptics will say, well, this is just the placebo effect.

Rick Bennett [00:19:10]:

I'm giving you a sugar pill. You think it's actually medicine? It's not. So if I say that I'm praying for you and you believe that I'm praying for you, your body will do amazing things. Another example, they did a study on what turned out to be Rogaine. They gave half of the people Rogaine, which caused them to grow hair. They also gave another group of patients placebos. And in the placebo group, they didn't know they were getting a placebo, but they grew hair. Now the difference was like 20% versus 80%.

Rick Bennett [00:19:45]:

And so when you give them statistics, you say, well, that's a statistically significant difference. But the fact of the matter is your body can do amazing things if you believe it. A skeptic would say, well, this is just the placebo effect. Prayers really don't do anything. But the fact of the matter is the placebo effect can help you to grow hair if you're bald for for 20% of the placebo patients. So is that a bad thing? So so from a scientific point of view, I can't really explain why the placebo group got is growing hair. I can't. Like, how does that happen? I don't know.

Rick Bennett [00:20:20]:

I can't explain that. Is it a miracle? Well, maybe, if you really want hair so bad. But it it's one of those things. Science can't explain it. And if a person is getting healed, whether it's the placebo effect or it really is the power of prayer, who cares? Like, they were healed.

Méli Solomon [00:20:38]:

Yeah. In the end, it's great that the person is healed, but that's not the whole story because what you're talking about are miracles. 

Rick Bennett 

Mhmm. 

People are saying, I had this terrible thing happened. Now I'm fine. It was a miracle. 

Rick Bennett 

Mhmm. 

Méli Solomon 

Right? They are chalking up their experience to it being a miracle, and they believe it's a miracle.

Méli Solomon [00:20:58]:

What I'm gathering from what you're saying, Rick, is that the community also believes that it was a miracle. Right? 

Rick Bennett 

Mhmm. 

Méli Solomon 

Are there skeptics in these churches who say, well, gee, I don't know. You're at a really great hospital. You got great care. I think it's just a matter of you had a will to live, and you got great medical care, so you're fine. Are there skeptics in the crowd that says, no, I don't think that's a miracle?

Rick Bennett [00:21:27]:

Well, I'm sure there are. But when the crowd enjoys miracles and you're the person saying Santa Claus isn't real, it's gonna be very uncomfortable you to stay in that church as a skeptic.

Méli Solomon [00:21:45]:

I think this is a really critical point. What I'm hearing, Rick, is that this is a very pro miracle crowd. Right? They like miracles. They think miracles are great. They see miracles. They believe in miracles, and they are disinclined to not believe somebody's story when they say this amazing thing happened, and I I think it it was a miracle. Right?

Rick Bennett [00:22:11]:

I mean, there are those people out there. They're not the kind of person that's gonna go to church every week, though, because they're gonna get tired of hearing I mean, you will hear the story. I lost my keys. I prayed, and then I found them. Like, I just heard that story. I was really kinda like, really? You you I mean, I know you needed your keys that bad. But is that really a miracle? But for some people it is. So the churchgoers, and I think that's true in any church, Mormon or not, they're gonna be more inclined towards miracles, and the skeptics are gonna be more inclined towards not going and listening to those stories every week.

Méli Solomon [00:22:46]:

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I think this is then an important point. It ends up being a self-selecting crowd.

Rick Bennett [00:22:53]:

Sure.

Méli Solomon [00:22:53]:

If you're really inclined towards believing in miracles, your own or someone else's, you are not going to question. You are going to be happy and maybe even eager to hear these stories. So you go to church all the time, you hear these things, and it's reinforcing your belief in miracles. And if you're skeptical, or if you want to question these things, or you think, oh, that's kind of finding the keys. Maybe that's a step too far. Then, as you say, you're going to get tired of hearing them. It's going to irritate you, and you're going to not be going to church so often.

Rick Bennett [00:23:32]:

Right.

Méli Solomon [00:23:33]:

Is that where we land?

Rick Bennett [00:23:34]:

That's how I explain both sides. So yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:23:39]:

So then given what I understand to be quite a tight community, I'm now wondering if somebody is questioning and therefore isn't showing up at church so often, what does that mean for the cohesion of the community, and what does that mean for that person's experience in the community?

Rick Bennett [00:24:01]:

That's the $64,000 question. I have a guest coming on, in December, and he's got a book titled Goodbye Religion. And he's studying why is it that people will leave religion. The answer is it's complicated. You can't predict who's gonna leave. So I I can't answer your question as much as I would love to.

Méli Solomon [00:24:26]:

But thanks for noting that guest sounds super interesting. But our focus here is not about people leaving. I just wanted to better understand the dynamics in the Mormon or the various Mormon communities around this issue of miracles and people's response to it. Moving on deeper into our core topic, which is these subgroups. Okay. So you've noted that there are a few that are kind of the top three. Very similar names. They end up getting called by the founders.

Méli Solomon [00:25:06]:

Do you have an overall sense of what the issues are that caused the splintering? Are there some common denominators? Is does it tend to be theological, or does it tend to be more operational? You know, how do you how do you live that faith? Is it about polygamy? Is it about I'm not quite sure what.

Rick Bennett [00:25:33]:

So the answer is yes. Okay. So so for people who aren't familiar with with, the history of of the Mormon movement, so Joseph Smith, in 1844 was running for president of the United States. He didn't like any of the candidates. And he said, I'm gonna throw in my hat. Because there was so much persecution, he was actually the first presidential candidate killed. The second was Robert F. Kennedy in 1969. So Joseph Smith was the 1st presidential candidate killed while running for president of the United States.

Rick Bennett [00:26:09]:

He was killed in the Carthage Jail in Illinois by a mob that didn't like him. And the problem was, originally, he had many lines of succession, but there was no clear line of succession. So basically, it was like, well, who's gonna lead? And so Brigham Young was the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And so he's the one who led what we would now call it the mainstream LDS Church. And he moved the saints from Illinois to Utah. So that's the largest Mormon group. There was kind of a showdown between him and Sydney Rigdon, who was a counselor of Joseph Smith. Sydney Rigdon happened to be running for vice president in the same presidential ticket.

Rick Bennett [00:26:52]:

This we get into electoral politics. You can't have the president, the vice president from the same state for Electoral College reasons or you lose your electoral college votes. So Joseph Smith sent Sydney on a mission to Pittsburgh, where he was from, to establish residency in Pennsylvania. So Sydney Rigdon did that. And he was in Pennsylvania when he discovered that Joseph Smith had been killed and he came back. So Sydney and Brigham kind of had a showdown. Who's gonna lead the church? Basically, what happened was they excommunicated with each other. Sydney went back to Pittsburgh and started the Church of Jesus Christ, which is based right outside Pittsburgh in Monongahela, Pennsylvania.

Rick Bennett [00:27:34]:

And so that's the 3rd largest Mormon church. Another man by the name of James Strang, he was on a mission in Wisconsin, and he claims that on June 27, 1844, which is the day Joseph Smith died, that an angel came and ordained him to be the new prophet of the church. And and once again, the name of his church is the same name as my church. The only difference is he doesn't have a dash. So it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So this is very confusing. This is why we refer to them as the Strangites. So he started the church in Wisconsin, eventually moved to Michigan.

Rick Bennett [00:28:09]:

And just like Joseph Smith, was assassinated. Oh, my goodness. He had his own plates, his own scripture, and rivaled Brigham Young in size for a time. His movement still exists in Wisconsin. They refer to themselves as Mormons. They believe in the Book of Mormon. They believe that James Strang was the 2nd prophet of the church, but they haven't had a successive prophet because they believe an angel needs to ordain you to be the another prophet, and nobody has claimed angelic visitation in that group. There was another apostle by the name of Lyman Wight.

Rick Bennett [00:28:46]:

Joseph Smith sent him on a mission to Texas. So he was in Texas when Joseph Smith died. Brigham said, Lyman, you need to come to Utah with the rest of the saints. And he said, Joseph Smith sent me on a mission to Texas, which at the time was an independent country. Joseph Smith was toying with the idea of creating a buffer zone between Mexico and Texas, and Sam Houston thought that was a good idea. Let's send the Mormons there. They can fight off the Mexicans. But Lyman Wight said, Joseph Smith sent me to Texas.

Rick Bennett [00:29:15]:

I'm starting a church in Texas, and I'm staying here because that's what Joseph Smith told me to do. His church eventually died out, and joined with the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which was established by Joseph Smith's son, Joseph Smith the third. We've called them the community of Christ, so the whole name gets interesting. Originally, their church was also called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But then Joseph Smith introduced polygamy back in Illinois. That was one of the reasons people didn't like him. Part of the reason he was killed there's a lot of reasons he was killed. Joseph had prophesied that his son would one day lead the church.

Rick Bennett [00:29:55]:

At the time Joseph Smith died, he was Joseph Smith the third was just 11 years old. So clearly, he couldn't leave the church at just 11. In 1860, I believe he was about 27, 28, he established the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Then when the Republicans and Abraham Lincoln joined the White House and said we need to get rid of the twin relics of barbarism, slavery, and polygamy, and they meant business. And they started passing all these laws, taking land from the and property from the church. Joseph Smith III said, we don't want to get mixed up with the Utah church. So we're gonna tack on Reorganized at the front of our church. And they were known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints until the year 2000.

Rick Bennett [00:30:40]:

And then they said, well, the original name of the church was the Church of Christ. And we want to be called the Community of Christ because that's more similar to our original name. And so they are now known as the community of Christ, and they're the 2nd largest. So, gosh. How many have I gone through there? I think that's 5 different strands right there.

Méli Solomon [00:30:59]:

Right. So yeah. Thanks for the rundown. But in in all of that, what I'm really hearing is the issue is succession.

Rick Bennett [00:31:11]:

Mhmm. Absolutely.

Méli Solomon [00:31:13]:

That's the issue. I don't hear anything about a theological disagreement or, you know, a new idea of the meaning of text or, you know, Martin Luther breaking from the Catholic church, right, and causing protestantism to develop? Or or is it just that that hasn't come up?

Rick Bennett [00:31:36]:

I haven't brought it up yet, but that's that is part of the story. So, of course so Brigham Young believed that polygamy was a godly practice. Joseph Smith, when he was looking at the Bible, he said King Solomon had a bunch of wives. David had a bunch of wives. Polygamy must be a biblical principle, claimed he had a revelation that brought polygamy in. And so Brigham Young was pro polygamy. Sidney Rigdon was anti-polygamy. And so that was a huge theological disagreement between those 2 particularly.

Rick Bennett [00:32:07]:

James Strang, who's kind of an outsider, he'd only been a convert of, like, less than a year. But, you know, when an angel ordains you, I guess, you know, you get to jump jump the line. So he was initially against polygamy. But then Joseph Smith's brother, William Smith, kind of introduced polygamy to the Strangites. And so then he changed his mind and said, okay, now polygamy is an okay principle, but you can only have 4 wives. With the Brigham Young Church, you can have as many as you want. So polygamy became a huge theological divide, as well as who did Joseph Smith want to be in charge. Joseph Smith's first wife, Emma, did not like polygamy.

Méli Solomon 

I wonder why.

Rick Bennett [00:32:53]:

But Emma stayed in Illinois and kind of had nothing to do with religion for a while. But all these people kept coming to her son, Joseph Smith 3rd, and saying, hey, Joseph Smith said you should be the leader. You should be the leader. And so one of the big theological differences between the Utah church, the Brighamites, and the Illinois church, the Josephites, was polygamy. So polygamy became a huge theological thing there as well. Joseph Smith said so many things, and some churches latch onto this and on on to other things. And so so the theological divisions have have grown, but polygamy was kind of a big division point when Joseph Smith died.

Méli Solomon [00:33:39]:

So you have the main LDS church and then you have splinter groups. Is there a hierarchy of value and or prestige that is recognized among the churches or by the main LDS church?

Rick Bennett [00:34:00]:

Not really. Everybody thinks that they're the one true church. And, you know, the LDS church is the largest. So if you go population wise, I guess you could say with the largest must be the biggest and best, although all the other churches would disagree. So it's when you say in hierarchy, I guess the FLDS excuse me. The AUB, they actually think that the LDS church went astray in 1890 when we got rid of polygamy. And so they still think they still have great respect for the LDS church, and they like the LDS church. If the LDS church finds out you're practicing polygamy, they will excommunicate you.

Rick Bennett [00:34:43]:

So I guess in that sense, the the polygamists still kind of like the LDS church. They just think we went wrong because we don't practice polygamy. But as far as the others, community of Christ, Bickertonites, all the others, they don't they think the LDS church they were up in the night because they were still practicing polygamy back in 1850s 40s. They don't hold any special feeling for us.

Méli Solomon [00:35:10]:

Right. So this business about believing something versus practicing it, That's really interesting. And and what I'm hearing is that it's really about the federal government has stated that polygamy is illegal, and we're tired of getting in trouble. So we will do it on the lowdown. Basically, this is right? I mean, this this is

Rick Bennett [00:35:37]:

This is something that people don't know. We always say polygamy ended at 1890. It didn't end at 1890.

Méli Solomon [00:35:42]:

So at any rate so this is an interesting thing that I wanna give some more thought to is this belief versus practice. You know, what does it mean to believe something but not practice it? For me, that creates dissonance.

Rick Bennett [00:35:59]:

Oh, for sure. If we could use a kind of a Native American analogy for a minute, there are certain Native American religions that believe that peyote is basically a drug that can give you spiritual experiences. There was a time where the federal government said you can't you can't use peyote. They've kind of relaxed on that now. And we're like, well, if you're using it in religious ceremonies, it's okay. I mean, it's kind of the same way. In the Bible, wasn't it, let's see, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, they weren't supposed to pray, and they were caught praying. And then they got thrown in the in the fire.

Rick Bennett [00:36:31]:

Right? So what do you do when you're doing things of conscience? If prayer is outlawed by the government, I mean, that's an important part of pretty much every religion. You're going to at least try to pray silently. Right? You're gonna is that subverting the government? And so polygamy is kind of that way. And so, yeah, basically, we got the we got polio beaten out of us. And so some people still think, hey, this is a godly principle. We still need to practice it. And so they still want to do that. Some people, some critics of the current LDS church will say, well, the LDS church still believes in polygamy.

Méli Solomon [00:37:08]:

Yeah. I I really have to take issue with the equation or the the the apparent equation you just made between needing to pray in secret, which, lord knows, that the Jews have a long history of that. Right? Look at the the our history with the Romans. They outlawed all kinds of things for us, and we had to do things in secret, equating prayer and polygamy. I I think this is really problematic.

Rick Bennett [00:37:37]:

Okay.

Méli Solomon [00:37:38]:

Praying doesn't affect any other human being. Polygamy, you're talking about one man being married to multiple wives and having some passel of kids. There are some real problems for the women and the kids, in my understanding.

Rick Bennett [00:37:53]:

Absolutely.

Méli Solomon [00:37:54]:

I think this should not be equated. I I really need to push back on that.

Rick Bennett [00:37:58]:

I'm not trying to equate them, but I'm trying to give you an analogy.

Méli Solomon [00:38:02]:

Okay. But I just I think we do need to be careful about these things because it sounds like an equation. Okay. I wanna ask you one more question, which is you mentioned a a few moments ago that each of these splinter groups see themselves as the one true church. What does that mean to be the one true church?

Rick Bennett [00:38:23]:

Well, this is gonna make a lot of people mad to answer this question. So I would just I would just gonna preface it that way.

Méli Solomon [00:38:30]:

I don't care about that. What I what I care about is understanding. 

Rick Bennett [00:38:34]:

We refer to Joseph Smith's first vision as the First Vision. And in the First Vision account, Joseph Smith said, you know, he actually, if you read the account, I was partial to the Methodist sect. I think his mom was a Presbyterian. Dad was kind of a Universalist. He's like, which which church should I join? And according to the story, he was told that he should join none of them for they were all corrupt. They did not have the authority. This gets into what is gonna offend all my Christian friends, what we refer to as the The Great Apostasy, where when Jesus came, he called 12 Apostles. The 12 Apostles were killed.

Rick Bennett [00:39:14]:

300 years later, Constantine comes, makes the Roman Empire Christian. So we're saying there's a 300 year gap between the apostles and when Constantine made Christianity not only legal but required in the Roman Empire. So we refer to that as a loss of authority. And so when Joseph in a in another vision, God gave Joseph the the the true, quote, unquote, true priesthood and that we have authority to not only bind on earth, to bind in heaven. So we have the authority to baptize, to solemnize marriages, do, you know, sacraments and those sorts of things. And so other churches do not have the proper authority. We believe Luther was a good guy. He'd never had any authority, never claimed to have any authority to reform the Catholic church, and John Calvin and John Wesley and all the other reformers.

Rick Bennett [00:40:07]:

So I know this offends all of my anybody who's not moron. But I'm just telling you, this is the story. So we believe our church has the authority from God and Jesus Christ to perform ordinances that are binding not only here on earth but are binding in heaven. And so because we have the authority, we are the true church. And we are we are God's church, essentially. You're gonna tick off a lot of people.

Méli Solomon [00:40:35]:

Why do you keep saying you're gonna tick off a lot of people with that?

Rick Bennett [00:40:38]:

Because a lot of people get upset about that when you say that. You go into it. Like, I I served a mission on a and people are like, what? My church isn't as good as your church? Like, that that can be offensive to people. And so we would say, yeah. Your church isn't as good as our church. That's why we're here. Our church is the best. And so, yeah, it does. It does offend people.

Méli Solomon [00:41:01]:

Do you believe that? Do you believe that your church is the best?

Rick Bennett [00:41:04]:

I hate that question.

Méli Solomon [00:41:07]:

I really want an answer. Yes or no?

Rick Bennett [00:41:12]:

I'm a member of this church. I love to study the history. The history is very messy.

Méli Solomon [00:41:17]:

You're sliding.

Rick Bennett [00:41:19]:

I am sliding, and I'm not gonna answer that question.

Méli Solomon [00:41:22]:

Okay. I'm gonna take that as a yes and that you feel uncomfortable about it.

Rick Bennett [00:41:27]:

Okay. Take it how you want.

Méli Solomon [00:41:29]:

Okay. Well, on that really, semi-clear note, I I want to thank you for coming on my Living Our Beliefs podcast, Rick. This has really been a dynamic and interesting conversation. Thank you for bringing the whole conglomerate of Mormon churches and for bringing your perspective and knowledge. I really appreciate it.

Rick Bennett [00:41:51]:

It was a lot of fun. Thanks.

Méli Solomon [00:41:55]:

Thank you for listening. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. If you'd like to learn more about that project, a link to the website is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.