Religious Pluralism v. White Supremacy in America Today – Wajahat Ali

Episode 85. 
As the new secular year begins, along with the incoming presidential administration, it’s a good time to hear a shortened version of my conversation with the esteemed journalist and speaker Wajahat Ali. Given the dominance of White Christian Nationalism and the debate about immigration, Wajahat’s Sunni Muslim American identity and his family’s Pakistani immigrant history, make him an ideal partner to talk about religious pluralism in America today. In this conversation we explore the challenges minorities face as well as the fears, hate and discomfort that drive the antagonism and protectionism of White Supremacy. But our conversation is not completely dark. Wajahat raises reasons for hope and steps we can each take towards a brighter future of dignity and freedom.

Highlights:
·       White Christian Nationalism.
·       Balancing group identity and assimilation; history and modernity; religion and secularism.
·       Suburban communities' fear despite material abundance.
·       Progressives ceded spirituality to the right.
·       Stand for dignity, freedom; reject hate-driven leadership.
·       Steps of awareness, intention, and action for individual contributions.

Bio:
Wajahat is a New York Times contributing op-ed writer and Daily Beast columnist, public speaker, and recovering attorney. He also regularly appears on cable news and radio to discuss politics, religion, foreign policy and culture. Wajahat often speaks on the multifaceted American experience, covering our growing need for cultural unity, racial diversity, and inclusion. Additionally, he has published his first book Go Back To Where You Came From: And, Other Helpful Recommendations on Becoming American. 

Wajahat grew up in the Bay Area, California to Pakistani immigrant parents. He graduated from UC Berkeley with an English major and became a licensed attorney. He knows what it feels like to be the token minority in the classroom and the darkest person in a boardroom. He is married and the father of three kids. 

Social Media links for Wajahat:
Website – https://www.wajali.com

NY Times opinion piece, 23 June 2023 

NY Times opinion piece, 16 Aug. 2023  

Transcript on Buzzsprout

More episodes with Muslims:
Saiyyidah Zaidi
Prianka Alam
Dr. Amir Hussain

Social Media links for Méli:
Website – Talking with God Project
LinkedIn – Meli Solomon

Follow the podcast!
The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. 

The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/

Transcript

Wajahat Ali transcript
Religious Pluralism v. White Supremacy in America Today

Méli Solomon [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meili Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more, check out the link in the show notes. As the new secular year begins, along with the incoming presidential administration, it's a good time to hear a shortened version of my conversation with the esteemed journalist and speaker, Wajahat Ali. Given the dominance of white Christian nationalism and the debate about immigration, Wajahat's Sunni Muslim American identity and his family's Pakistani immigrant history make him an ideal partner to talk about religious pluralism in America today.

Méli Solomon [00:01:12]:

In this conversation, we explore the challenges minorities face as well as the fears, hate, and discomfort that drive the antagonism and protectionism of white supremacy. But our conversation is not completely dark. Wacha Hut raises reasons for hope and steps we can each take towards a brighter future of dignity and freedom. And now let's turn to our conversation. I'd like to begin addressing the question, how do you see this balancing of being an observant Muslim and yet living in a pluralistic US?

Wajahat Ali [00:01:52]:

God, go to a post-9/11 climate. There's always a fork in the timeline. There's a pre 911 and a post 911. And and what happened with 911 is Islam became the enemy. Right? It's not like this has not happened before. Right? When we were growing up in the eighties-nineties, even those in the seventies, you saw how America looked at you. You were either, ignored. You were the stereotype, the punch line, or or the villain.

Wajahat Ali [00:02:19]:

But the villain oftentimes was, like, the Middle Eastern villain, that that that brown foreign guy. Islam itself, was seen as something exotic and foreign, but not the enemy. And what happened after 9/11, if you remember, was these words like us versus them. You're either with us or you're against us. That's what George w Bush said, and he even used the word, it's a crusade. It was Islam versus the west. It's interesting when you're both Islam and the west. Right? You're us and them, and your country turns on you.

Wajahat Ali [00:02:48]:

And your country sees you as a suspect and as a foreigner, not as a citizen, not as native. For many of us who were born and raised here, you know, that was a rude awakening, Melia. That's what I say. And you kinda realize, oh, no matter what we do, it'll never be enough. And then in the background, black people are like, told you. And you hear lessons from Japanese Americans and the Irish Catholics, especially the elders who remember, and Jewish Americans, the elders who remember, and other groups, and you realize, oh, it's always been like this. You have to love a country that doesn't always love you back. So then the question becomes, how much do you push for acceptance? So there is this fear and this desire to protect your community.

Wajahat Ali [00:03:29]:

In doing so, how much do you give up, if anything, to, quote, unquote, assimilate? How much do you apologize for? How long do you have to apologize for? Do you even apologize? And then there comes a shift, Millie, where you're like, I don't wanna apologize for being myself. I don't wanna condemn people I've never met. It's about living in a country that doesn't always love you back, loving a country that doesn't always love you back, fighting for your own people and your faith and your traditions, which are under active assault. I mean, people forget. You know, now the whole thing is CRT and and transgender, but in the 2010, midterm elections in 2012, it was all about Sharia, the same exact manufactured panic. People forget this. You know? People also forget. Muslims forget.

Wajahat Ali [00:04:14]:

7 years ago, Donald Trump said on CNN, quote, I think Islam hates us. That was the guy the elected president. It's this nonstop ride where you feel quintessentially American because you're born and raised here, and you're like, oh, I have religious freedoms. And, you know, I'm Muslim, and I'm American, and I'm Pakistani, and I fast during Ramadan, and I watch the Simpsons, and I raise my kids, but I'm still not part of the Judeo Christian framework. And for those of you who know your American history, that Judeo was added in the 20th century, folks. It wasn't always there. So it's an act of resistance. It's an act of trying to love yourself, trying to impart these traditions in a hostile climate.

Wajahat Ali [00:05:00]:

Let me put it this way. When I was growing up, a Republican could not get away with rank Islamophobia and racism. They had to do dog whistles. So people say, oh, you've come a far away since 9:11. You have, miss Marvel. She's part of the avengers. She's Muslim and Pakistani. And you have Muslim elected officials, and you got Muslims on television.

Wajahat Ali [00:05:19]:

Correct. Yes. However, I have never heard this blatant open racism and bigotry and Islamophobia. I never grew up with that. And the fact that there are some people who will be rewarded for this, you have the 2 extremes side by side, and that's a country where my kids are inheriting, and my kids are brown skinned. They have Muslim y names. We're raising the Muslim. And my generation that was born and raised here, just to give you an interesting sobering example, couple of years ago, a friend of mine who was about to have a kid that said, I wanna give my kid a Muslim name, she was pregnant, but a name that also could be safe. I didn't realize a lot of my friends, without realizing, were self policing their unborn kids' names just to make them feel safe. That's how it feels.

Méli Solomon [00:06:09]:

As a Jewish American, I get it. Now I have the advantage of white skin.

Wajahat Ali [00:06:14]:

Mhmm.

Méli Solomon [00:06:15]:

But then I'm a woman. Right? So we each have these multiple identities, and some of them are more problematic sometimes than others. I think this issue of representation is important. Where and how much are we represented? You mentioned a moment ago about there are Muslims in in comics and journalists and politicians and and all of that. You know? And you mentioned kids. Right? I think it's really important for kids to see, ah, that person up there Yeah. Looks like me. This is possible. Yeah. Right? I think for every minority group, this is super important.

Wajahat Ali [00:06:55]:

Correct. Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:06:57]:

Does it protect us? No. And, really, the question that then comes to mind listening to you watch out is what would it take? Now what would it take for your friends to not be self-policing about their kids' names? What would it take for this issue of I'm tired of defending myself, I'm tired of explaining, I'm tired of being the model minority or the, the punch line, what have you? Is there an out? Is there a solution here?

Wajahat Ali [00:07:34]:

You have to eradicate white supremacy in America and replace it with a truly multiracial, multicultural, democratic vision. And white supremacy, unfortunately, is part and parcel of the American dream and American nightmare. And every time there has been an attempt to eradicate white supremacy from our institution and our mindset, as you can clearly see right now, there has been hostile, hostile resistance. Right? Optimists would say 2 steps forward, 1 step back. Cynics would say for every one step forward, 2 steps back. Women, we're finally able to get rights, and America is like, nope. We're gonna remove a 50 year constitutionally protected right. Black people are saying, hey.

Wajahat Ali [00:08:17]:

Maybe don't choke us to death if we're unarmed, and we're gonna do some protest. Look at it. All we're saying is black lives matter. Black they're not saying black lives are the best. They're not saying black lives are preferred. Can we just agree on black lives matter? And a part of America is like, nope. It's a zero sum game for them. And each time a, if you will, a, quote, unquote, minority or anybody who's been excluded from the American tent or the American narrative simply asks or demands that, can we have this thing called freedom and equality that America kind of, promises to everyone? That's all we want.

Wajahat Ali [00:08:52]:

No one wants special status. At the end of the day, we just want equal status. And and you see the country and a part of this country, anytime if it's black, if it's woman, if it's LGBTQ, if it's an immigrant, anytime there isn't any effort whatsoever to promote that group so that they can just get some bootstraps. It's always seen that it's come at the expense of the white majority. Right? And you looked at all the data, it's always there. It's always seen as an us or them or you took my share of the pizza. That was my birthright. That belonged to me.

Wajahat Ali [00:09:25]:

What really prompted Trump's victory was not, let me repeat, not economic anxiety. It's a nonsense BS euphemism that we keep using to infantilize and rationalize white supremacy and white rage. It was Melli cultural anxiety. Again and again and again, every single study has shown it. The fear that they're replacing us. We are losing power. And we're like, no. No.

Wajahat Ali [00:09:51]:

No. Trust me. You are still in power. Look at all the data. You guys are crushing it. Right? We just want a seat at the table. Can we have a seat at the table? And, literally, the narrative goes, we will allow you to have the seat at the table as long as you know that we are the head of the table. And you better behave yourself, and you better know your place.

Wajahat Ali [00:10:12]:

And when you said people resist and there's a generation that says, no. We're not gonna apologize. We don't have to thank you for a seat at the table. We deserve to be here. We're citizens. That's where you see the tension. So we have to wait for it, be aware. Some would say be woke as opposed to being asleep.

Wajahat Ali [00:10:31]:

Basically, from faith traditions, it's gaining knowledge. Be aware. Don't be ignorant. How can you help people? How can you cure hearts? How can you use your prophetic messages to treat the people if you don't even know how to diagnose them, if you can't see the symptoms? Right? And so that's where the wokeness comes in when it comes to identifying what I think is the primary disease of America, which is, I would say, white supremacy, and another one I would probably say is materialism and greed. And so confronting this and dismantling it will finally allow us to get to a point where, Inshallah, we don't have to have these conversations about representation, but we're a long way away from that. Even though we're a long way away from that, we have to give respect to our ancestors, including women, people of color, who really struggled to get us to this point. And if you don't know your past, you don't know your present, you can't chart the future. That's sort of the reason why authoritarians and fascists always, always, always want to ban books, want to have a single story, want to have a single hero.

Méli Solomon [00:11:38]:

So a couple of things. One is you've raised a question of the value or the necessity or even the possibility of things like religious literacy. There has been in the last couple of decades a push for that. Now there's, you know, been various DEI efforts that's now under attack. I do think the knowledge among those who are willing and interested has come up with every issue. We're like, oh, who are they? Where is that? What's that problem? You know? And people start reading and they get into reading groups and they listen to folks like you and listen to TED Talks and and and what have you. And I think that the knowledge is increased.

Wajahat Ali [00:12:25]:

Mhmm.

Méli Solomon [00:12:25]:

But there is an overall dark cloud that just doesn't seem to go away. And, again, as a Jew, I'm quite with you that that there is this default to white supremacy, white nationalism.

Wajahat Ali [00:12:43]:

Mhmm. Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:12:44]:

I might add white Christian nationalism.

Wajahat Ali [00:12:48]:

You should add that. Yes. That is the number one threat to this country.

Méli Solomon [00:12:52]:

It's a gigantic problem. We do seem to periodically take a step forward. Now for you and I, that step forward is greater acknowledgment, greater support, more comfortable pluralism, more understanding, more knowledge.

Wajahat Ali [00:13:10]:

Correct.

Méli Solomon [00:13:11]:

And yet, two quotes come to mind. 1 is from the Charlottesville unite the right. Jews will not replace us. Yep. That was scary to hear. And the other is a slightly more humorous take. I think it comes from a jazz standard. Help yourself, but don't take too much.

Wajahat Ali [00:13:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. Know your place. And it's one of those situations where when the unite the right rally happened and the forces of white supremacy kind of assembled like the, KKK Avengers in defense of a a racist statue, that should have been enough for people to say, woah. Woah. Woah. What's happening? Even for many Jews who, I mean, you know this better than I do. You know, I was trying to warn so many Jewish Americans who thought and still think that they're white and believe that their white skin will protect them.

Wajahat Ali [00:14:05]:

Still, even now, I say, listen. What's animating a large part of white nationalists both here and abroad, you assume it's anti blackness. True. But it's anti Semitism. Specifically, that helps fuel all of this bigotry and racism. Right? Because they believe that the Jews and you always have to say the Jews, and you need, like, thunder and lightning and. The Jews, the nerve center, are the brains behind this international cabal to help weaken and replace Western civilization, which is oftentimes a a standard, fill in for, like you said, white Christian nationalism. They're trying to weaken Christianity, white people, and white men.

Wajahat Ali [00:14:46]:

And they're using the Muslims, the blacks, the Latinos because and this is what's really important. There is no way that these blacks and these Latinos and these Muslims have the cultural and intellectual bandwidth to come up with this themselves. They're beasts. We are the intellectual superiors, but you know who might be even more smart than us and more conniving? The, dun, dun, dun, Jews. About a third of Americans believe in the white supremacist conspiracy theory called the replacement theory, that the Jews are using all these groups to weaken and replace western civilization. And now the euphemism for it is the deep state and George Soros, which is a mainstream talking point of republicans and a mainstream talking point of fascist movements both here and abroad. You see it being used by Orban, by Putin. You see Erdogan dipping into it.

Wajahat Ali [00:15:44]:

You're seeing it happen right now in Argentina. And so in particular, the 2 religious groups that are most affected by this are the Jews and Muslims. We are seen as the invaders. Right? And so it's a situation where it all comes to a head where you see white supremacy, white Christian nationalism, fear, disinformation, age old prejudices being used by a global movement that is committed towards creating a world in which, quote, unquote, the white man stays at top and the rest of us, we will at best rent the room in the house, never be co owners, and they will allow us to stay there if we know our place. I've talked to some older Jews and, like, listen, listen, listen. You know when you're a minority, don't flex too much when you have power. They come after you. And then a part of you then also wants to assimilate and integrate by giving up your tribe and other tribes.

Wajahat Ali [00:16:49]:

You know, you become the Nikki Hailis and the Vivek Rama Swamis and the so forth. And then there's resistance. But then what comes with the resistance and maintaining those religious values is exhaustion. And then you say, well, how much for how long can I resist? And then on top of that, it's modernity. You know? Then we have our religious traditions battling with the forces of modernity, and you're trying to make this thing this tradition, these stories, and these these these morals and these practices relevant to our children. And then our children are like, people hate us. Why do I wanna be a Jew or Muslim? Or secondly, why am I doing this stuff if it doesn't give us peace of mind or happiness? Right? And you could see that pressure, and you see how that pressure is cracking and straining so many of our communities. I'm sure what I've said resonates with you in the Jewish communities that that you're a part of.

Méli Solomon [00:17:39]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And just as you were talking, I wrote a few words. One was balance. So balance of the well, there are so many. Balance of the pluralism and the tribe, balance of history and modernity, balance of religious observance, and and is basically a secular public square. So that's one thing. The other word that popped up was code switching.

Wajahat Ali [00:18:08]:

Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:18:09]:

I don't know. I mean, maybe this is just par for the course of being a minority in the US. I mean, we are famous for being a multicultural country. Right? We're the great immigrant country. We're unique in that way. The whole world is here. Folks from every other country want to come live, right, despite all of this.

Wajahat Ali [00:18:31]:

Yeah. My parents, they came here after the 1965 immigration nationality act. And you have to remember, back in those days, you know, my father came with his brother as teenagers. There weren't halal markets. There weren't mosques. My father says in those days, if you were just walking the street and across the street, if you saw a brown person, forget Muslim, forget Pakistani. He said that in those days, we would run to each other and exchange phone numbers because you just saw someone who looked like you. Right? You know, we were, like, trying to learn what we could, research and ask our parents when it came down to do Eid.

Wajahat Ali [00:19:05]:

You don't take for granted the religious traditions and cultures. You have to fight for it. In in that, there's some beauty. Right? Like, you stick together and you remember and you hold on to it. You hold on to it, especially when you feel like it's so precious that it might be lost. Being that minority, it gives you pride. Yes. There's a target on you.

Wajahat Ali [00:19:28]:

Also makes you hold on fast and tight to those traditions that you otherwise would probably lose through assimilation or ignorance. So the tension is, how do I maintain my unique organic shape but still be part of this ensemble? That's the tension. And I feel like it's one of the situations where America is always trying to figure out how do I maintain my identity. But when another person's identity makes me uncomfortable, what do I do with that? And I think that's what we're dealing with right now. The discomfort of other identities emerging. Right? And so you see this in particular with people of color, women, immigrants, Muslims. I'll say Jewish even though a lot of Jews think they have assimilated. Trust me. This country will turn on you. They don't see you as white. Those white nationalists see you as Jewish. And then in particular right now, Melli, the LGBTQ, especially the t. And that's where you're seeing the breakdown happen.

Méli Solomon [00:20:30]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Fear and discomfort drive antagonism and protectionism.

Wajahat Ali [00:20:35]:

Yep.

Méli Solomon [00:20:36]:

Every time. And those roots are deep. Right? For the white folks who are fearful of losing their supreme position, that fear is triggered into antagonism incredibly quickly.

Wajahat Ali [00:20:54]:

Mhmm.

Méli Solomon [00:20:56]:

And then I suppose and I do feel like this is kind of a dark conversation, so I'm looking for the light here. I suppose on on the side of the minority, it's a different kind of fear. Right? It's a fear of well, it's a fear of hostility and attack. Right? Your life could be on the line. Right? For black men in America, this is a very real fear, unfortunately.

Wajahat Ali [00:21:23]:

Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:21:24]:

And for those of us not quite so strongly with a target on our back, I think we can relax. I think we do relax, sometimes a little too much. We start taking things for granted. We think, okay. Yeah. We got it. We're okay. So there is, I think for us, a value in retaining some amount of the fear because it keeps us alert to the dangers out there. So again, I return to this word of balance. Like, how do we balance those things? Because I don't know about you, Wajahat, but I do not want to live on the trigger line.

Wajahat Ali [00:22:04]:

Yeah. It's not it's not healthy.

Méli Solomon [00:22:06]:

This does drive some of us at least into you were the one who phrased it this way that religion is a cocoon against modernity, you know, into the tribe.

Wajahat Ali [00:22:18]:

Yeah. But why would anyone wanna live in fear all the time? Right? And what we've seen is that but what you're basically doing is living in perpetual fight flight. And when you're living in perpetual fight flight, you're activating stress. And now we know we have enough data that stress kills. It impairs your judgment because your body through evolution is primed to survive. So if you're triggering fight flight, you don't have the the the capacity in that moment to think rationally, to think long term, to think about your consequences. It turns you inward. It turns you selfish.

Wajahat Ali [00:22:52]:

You you lack the capacity to be selfless. And when you're in a fight flight mode where self preservation is your only end, oftentimes, what gets jettisoned is morality and ethics and selflessness and sacrifice, and I would even say, god. God oftentimes gets sacrificed. Right? And so it is not a healthy way to live. And the tragedy is is so many people who are driven by fear are people whom god has given everything. And what I mean by that are folks in the suburbs right now. And and, you know, I'm living in the suburbs, and I could tell you on the WhatsApp chats. You have everything except peace of mind.

Wajahat Ali [00:23:30]:

You're terrified of your shadow because it's black. You're terrified of poor people potentially encroaching. You're terrified of, you know, immigrants even though they're not bothering you. You're terrified of the women getting too much lip. You're terrified of the gays even though there's no gay people in your home. You're terrified of your kid turning transgender even though your kid is homeschooled and goes to private school. You're terrified of everything. And I'm sitting there thinking you have everything except peace of mind.

Wajahat Ali [00:23:54]:

It's almost like a a curse, a a gilded cage that they've created for themselves. Right? A cocoon. We're only gonna have a few select friends, and then maybe, just maybe, just maybe, we'll be safe. And you know and I know. When whenever we talk like that, god laughs. Right? And when you wanna protect the kids, your kids ain't protected. Your kids have TikTok. Your kids have Instagram.

Wajahat Ali [00:24:20]:

Your kids are curious. Your kids will be exposed, and you have not prepared your children for this multicultural world. You have not prepared your children for dealing with people who are different from them. You have not prepared your children with the type of confidence that they need to have in their religion, in their identity, in their morals that if they are placed in any situation, they can rely upon it and draw from it a a well of strength that says, everyone else is drinking alcohol. I'm a Muslim. I don't drink. Let them make fun of me for the 1st couple of days. I won't make fun of them.

Wajahat Ali [00:24:57]:

And, oh, look. After a couple of days, they respected me. What I've seen, Mele, that I'm seeing this right now happening in my communities where you would think the number one fear is climate change, gun violence, authoritarianism. You know what the number one fear is in these WhatsApp chats? The gays, the trans. The way it also is all, like, intertwined in protection is they feel like if they don't batten down the hatches, everything that they've built will fall apart. No one's gonna fast. No one's gonna pray. No one's gonna wear hijab, and it's all over.

Wajahat Ali [00:25:28]:

And I always tell them, like, listen. I was born and raised in this country. You and I were born and raised in this country. We're still Muslim. That doesn't make sense. We should have assimilated and abandoned it long ago. We should have abandoned it after 911. Like, that's like a losing team to be, you know, a Muslim after 911.

Wajahat Ali [00:25:46]:

But here we are. So maybe, maybe, maybe have faith and have some hope in the kids. And maybe there's a different way where instead of being so terrified, you can lead with strength, confidence, and love. And you mentioned, like, your religion acting as a cocoon. I would also say religion, unfortunately, is acting as a sword against our perceived enemies, of modernity. And that oftentimes, if we're to be honest, are women and LGBTQ right now in America.

Méli Solomon [00:26:15]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I just wanna pick out 2 bits of what you just said, Wachot, that I think are just super important. One is this need of those in power who are afraid to attack the weakest link.

Wajahat Ali [00:26:31]:

Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:26:32]:

Right? And as you just said, I think absolutely accurately that at the moment, that weakest part is the LGBTQ community, especially trans kids.

Wajahat Ali [00:26:42]:

Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:26:43]:

It's a tiny, tiny part of the population.

Wajahat Ali [00:26:46]:

Less than a percent.

Méli Solomon [00:26:48]:

But, again, sorry to keep saying this, but as a Jew, that doesn't matter. Right? It's not about data points.

Wajahat Ali [00:26:56]:

Yep.

Méli Solomon [00:26:57]:

And I think, frankly, this is part of where the folks on the left this is where we fall down sometimes in terms of the public discourse. You know? We we like to say, oh, but we have the data. But it's really an emotional thing. We need to address the emotional experience and the emotions of fear and anxiety. It is systemic. It's a big challenge. There's no one quick fix. I personally feel light change happens one conversation at a time.

Wajahat Ali [00:27:32]:

Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:27:33]:

It's very slow.

Wajahat Ali [00:27:34]:

Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:27:36]:

But with one conversation, as I have on this podcast, as I have done in my talking with God project research. 1 to 1 conversations or small group conversations have the benefit of going deeper and being able to tease out ideas and unpack things. And I think that's that's where it happens. When we get into these bigger groups, into the into the mob mentality as as the Jan 6 attack shows, crazy shit happens.

Wajahat Ali [00:28:06]:

You know, it's one of the situations where at the end of the day, we're only responsible for our own intentions and actions. It's very hard to change anybody. You know, Islam, you believe that, you live your life, and then you will have to meet your creator one day. And on that day, each soul is responsible for their own actions and is responsible for their own deeds. We can only control our own intentions and actions, and we have limited time. So the question that we ask ourselves is, with this limited time that we have been given, what can I do? And then I believe that what we can do is make 3 choices. Do you choose to be aware, or do you choose to be asleep? Then if you become aware of what's happening, then the second part I always say is, do I intend to do something about it? But intention is not enough. Now you have to act.

Wajahat Ali [00:28:57]:

So the third part I would say is action. How do I choose to act? You could be overwhelmed, and you could be like, there's so many problems, man. Apathy, materialism, hate, ignorance, white Christian nationalism, white supremacy, climate change, student loan debt. Who am I? I'm nobody. What can I do? I think everybody's got something. God has given everybody something. Kindness is a superpower. You know? Listening is a superpower.

Wajahat Ali [00:29:24]:

Raising good kids. And so if we, in our daily life, choose to be the best versions of ourselves and if we can lead with kindness and love, then at the very least, maybe in your home, at your workplace, at school, in your community, in your mosque, even though you might not get a medal or you might not be in television, you have done something. You've made a contribution. Right? And when people see this, what inspires in them is hope. Hope begets hope. Internally, it has effect on you. It's like a ripple effect. And then people see it.

Wajahat Ali [00:30:01]:

And then when people collectively come together, that collective action also inspires collective hope. People see other people doing good. They're like, ah, I'm part of something. That's my hope, Meli. Control myself. Do what I can do, my family, my kids. And then link up with other people who I see trying to do that, and maybe we can create what I call the multicultural avengers and do what we can do with the limited time that we have on this place called

Méli Solomon [00:30:30]:

Earth. Excellent. I think we need a comic book there. Multicultural Avengers. We've spoken in this conversation and in others about the co-opting of religion by the right. Yes. How would you suggest that the liberals, the democrats, the left wing, however you wanna phrase it, could incorporate the religious voice, the religious communities and leaders into our liberal stance?

Wajahat Ali [00:31:00]:

Very good question. Something that I've always said is a a major weak spot for progressives, liberals, democrats is that they have ceded the ground of religiosity and spirituality to the right. The reason why the the left abandons religion for the most part is two reasons. Number 1, we live in a secular society, and we have to differentiate ourselves from these right wing folks who are white Christian nationalists, and we realize that their vision is very, if you will, stingy and miserly and is only for a religious nationalist. Right? So we need a big tent. And in that big tent, you have to lead with secular language. Secondly, it's because so many of them have been oppressed, let's be honest, the religious institutions, especially women, young people, people of color, LGBTQ, that they find no meaning anymore, and they see it as archaic, and they see it as, like, unscientific. Right? And then what I tell folks is you are missing out because whether you like it or not, you have to meet people where they are.

Wajahat Ali [00:31:59]:

And where a lot of people around the world are, Melly, is in a religious community. And this ignorance and this lack of awareness of how religious communities talk, operate, and think is a massive weak spot for liberals and Democrats. Right? I feel like when you're in liberal circles, they think, like, most religious people are either, the vegans or carnivores. Right? They either like, I'm spiritual, but not religious. I'm secular Muslim. Or they're they think they're like, you're a fundamentalist, like, extremist. Right? I'm like, no. Most people are omnivores.

Wajahat Ali [00:32:31]:

I'll go on church for Ash Wednesday, bam, mess around, but I guess I'm still Christian. That's like how most people are. You know, religion gives people meaning. It gives people values. It gives people identity. It gives people in this modern age community. For better or worse, that's where people find community, through religion. And what happens is when progressives mock religion, crap on religion, they go ahead.

Wajahat Ali [00:32:53]:

I understand why you do it. But when you abandon them and you don't speak the religious language or you know how to talk to them, guess who comes in? Franklin Grant, Donald Trump, Rick Santorum, Nikki Haley, these frauds, these modern day pharaohs, right, who who who speak fascism through a religious language and use Jesus as a mascot for white supremacy. And they and they win them over time and time again on moral values and family values time and time again, Mili. And religious communities are like, hey. At least they believe in God. Hey. At least they have these values. Hey.

Wajahat Ali [00:33:28]:

At least that, you know, they quote the bible in the Quran. And what they're doing right now with LGBTQ is a classic divide and conquer technique. See? They're trying to shove this down your throat. They're trying to make the sinful into lawful. They're celebrating hedonism, Sodom and Gomorrah. Right? These are, like like, terms that if you know religious communities, they they activate them. The flip side to this is there's a response to this. Mallory McMorrow, who is a young democrat, she's from Michigan, White woman, suburban woman, mother, and, actually, Catholic.

Wajahat Ali [00:34:04]:

A GOP colleague of hers called her a groomer, and she finally responded. Video went viral, and it kinda, like, really boosted her, is she took 4 and a half minutes to respond. She responded proactively by identifying as a white mom and a Catholic, and she said her religious values teach her to lead with love, not hate. She responded because she saw that this language was being used to attack LGBTQ kids, and she said you won't be able to do that by claiming and hijacking religion. My religion teaches me love and compassion for the other. So this is where by using that language, flexing with her whiteness, flexing as a mom, and flexing with her Christian identity, she was able to reclaim it. And she was able to give a narrative to religious communities and said, oh, yeah. You know what? We think that this is sin haram.

Wajahat Ali [00:34:57]:

We don't like it, but do we really wanna be this cruel? Do we really wanna focus on this? Do we really wanna be this mean? Yeah. That's not right. And it appeals to the better nature of religious communities. Right? Another example I'll give where I give a shout out to Pete Buttigieg and Joe Biden. Joe Biden's Catholic. Pete Buttigieg is religious, and he speaks with that religious language. And a lot of liberals are like, God. Why does he talk about religious? It's so stupid.

Wajahat Ali [00:35:22]:

I'm like, do you wanna win elections? Have you traveled across America? And the answer is no. Like and so this is where it's a great disservice to Democrats who are trying to fight for democracy, and it's a great disservice to religious communities that they are being tempted, as I'm speaking right now, by bad faith right wing actors who do not like Jews or Hindus or Muslims and are using them, co-opting them to attack the Ts right now. And after they're done with the Ts, Meli, guess who they're gonna turn on? The rest of us, which is why you need religious leaders in this moment to lead with love and to give a big picture narrative and say, listen. We have difference of opinions. We live in a multicultural society. It's a tossed salad society. They wanna agree with everything with us. We wanna agree everything with them.

Wajahat Ali [00:36:08]:

But guess what? That community that they're attacking right now, that community even though that community might not be a fan of religious communities for a variety of reasons, that community came out and stood with us during the Muslim ban. And maybe it's time we stand up for them because in this time right now, all of us are looking for dignity and freedom, and each of us and our families have a right to live with security and peace, and those forces are using and abusing god, religion, and Jesus to spread hate. That is a type of leadership I would like to see, and that's the type of language I would like to see from our religious leaders in a way that doesn't compromise their morality and ethics and their values, but at the same time inspires them and forces them to stand up for ethics, values, decency, and kindness.

Méli Solomon [00:36:54]:

Fine words to end on. Thank you so much for coming on my Living Our Beliefs podcast, Wajahat. This has just been another wonderful conversation. Thank you for listening. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. If you'd like to learn more about that project, a link to the website is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.