How to be Visibly Muslim in the US Government – Fatima Pashaei

Episode 83.
Is someone in your family an immigrant? Or are you yourself an immigrant? Are you visibly a member of a race or religion? And how do these markers of identity affect your work life and general sense of belonging? 

In this conversation we explore the complexities of her life experience – being part of an extended family of mixed cultures and religions, being visibly Muslim at work, the 9/11 terrorist attack, and a bit about Christmas, perfect in the run up to that holiday.

Bio:
Fatima Pashaei, an American-born Muslim woman, has worked for the Federal government for the last 25 years. She is currently President of Mosaic - Muslim Federal Employee Association, a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization, which supports Muslims serving in the executive branch of government. Fatima is passionate about creating inclusive workplaces for people of all faith backgrounds. Fatima grew up in Washington, DC. with her six siblings, the daughter of an Iranian immigrant father and American mother, who instilled in her the value of service to others. Fatima lives in Northern Virginia with her husband, two sons, hairless cat, and rescue dog.

 Highlights:
·       Shia, a minority Islamic sect globally, but the majority in Iran.

·       Mother's conversion to Islam and integration of mixed cultural practices.

·       Focus on broad Muslim identity rather than sectarian differences.

·       Witnessed 9/11 attacks; felt impact on the Pentagon.

·       Uncomfortable incidents with derogatory comments about Middle Eastern and Iraqi backgrounds.

·       The challenge of being a woman in a male-dominated workforce and a Muslim in a non-Muslim area.

·       Positive work experiences and cultural understanding moments.

·       Christmas celebration – family time and cookies

·       Jesus (Isa in Arabic) as prophet in Islam who performs miracles. 

Social Media links for Fatima: 
LinkedIn –  www.linkedin.com/in/fatima-pashaei   
Instagram – @fatipash
Mosaic (Muslim Federal Employee Association) – www.mosaicfeds.org 

Social Media links for Méli:
Website – Talking with God Project
LinkedIn – Meli Solomon
Facebook – Meli Solomon


Transcript on Buzzsprout

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The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. When you hear about how observant Christians, Jews and Muslims live their faith, new ideas and questions arise:  Is your way similar or different?  Is there an idea or practice that you want to explore?  Understanding how other people live opens your mind and heart to new people you meet. 

Comments?  Questions? Email  Méli at – info@talkingwithgodproject.org
 

The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/

Transcript

Fatima Pashaei transcript

How to be Visibly Muslim in the US Government

Méli Solomon [00:00:04]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more, check out the link in the show notes. Is someone in your family an immigrant, or are you yourself an immigrant? Are you visibly a member of a race or religion? And how do these markers of identity affect your work life and general sense of belonging? Welcome. Today's episode is number 83, and my guest is Fatima Pashaei, an American born Muslim woman who has worked for the federal government for the last 25 years.

Méli Solomon [00:01:09]:

In this conversation, we explore the complexities of her life experience. Being part of an extended family of mixed cultures and religions, being visibly Muslim at work, the 9/11 terrorist attack, and a bit about Christmas. Perfect in the run up to that holiday. And now, let's turn to our conversation. Hello, Fatima. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast.

Méli Solomon [00:01:38]:

I'm really pleased to have you on today.

Fatima Pashaei [00:01:40]:

Very excited to be here.

Méli Solomon [00:01:42]:

We're going to talk about your experience working in the government as a Muslim woman. But just so I better understand your background, what sect of Islam do you follow, and were you raised in that?

Fatima Pashaei [00:02:03]:

I was raised as Shia Muslim. I usually identify as just Muslim. Well, my husband is Sunni, so we have a mixed sect household. So we're a little bit like a la carte Muslims. We pick and choose a little bit from from both and agree and disagree on a couple of things.

Méli Solomon [00:02:21]:

I love that. A la carte Muslims. I've heard Catholics say the same thing. Although, they say something different. They say cafeteria Catholic.

Fatima Pashaei [00:02:30]:

Oh, I haven't heard that before.

Méli Solomon [00:02:31]:

Yeah. But it's the same idea that you're picking and choosing.

Fatima Pashaei [00:02:35]:

Mhmm.

Méli Solomon [00:02:36]:

Culturally, in terms of your family background, you are American?

Fatima Pashaei [00:02:41]:

Born in the United States. Yes.

Méli Solomon [00:02:43]:

And what is your family background?

Fatima Pashaei [00:02:47]:

Family background, my mom is white American. She was born and raised in the Eastern Shore of Maryland, multiple generations in the United States. I think she's probably one of the Jamestown. They've just been here forever. That was confirmed with a DNA test, 23 of Me. On my father's side, he is an immigrant. He immigrated to the United States in 1973, and he's from Iran, so Middle Eastern.

Méli Solomon [00:03:13]:

Right. And that's that's a whole other thing which we're going to have to leave, to the side.

Fatima Pashaei [00:03:19]:

Sure.

Méli Solomon [00:03:20]:

But I'm I'm guessing, and I I try to not make assumptions, but, I mean, it's clearly affected your contact with the extended family. Your father is then really disconnected from his family, and I would think that would be quite difficult, quite painful.

Fatima Pashaei [00:03:42]:

I think it was pretty devastating for him. He did have a lot of depression because of it. He did feel disconnected, but he would always tell us, like, you're my family here, and this is where my family is. And he would have conversations with them overseas, but traveling there was always gonna be an issue. So he's like, you're American. It was kind of an unfortunate situation that we weren't able to freely travel and spend time with our family. So there's always just been a disconnect for us of just having an American identity and not really having that cultural connection or the family connection with relatives over there.

Méli Solomon [00:04:14]:

What year did he immigrate?

Fatima Pashaei [00:04:17]:

1973. So he married my mom in 76, 3 years after coming here. And he came here on a student visa. He was trying to go to school.

Méli Solomon [00:04:25]:

So often the reason people come.

Fatima Pashaei [00:04:28]:

Yep.

Méli Solomon [00:04:29]:

So there's this tension. You're completely American, but you have this heritage that is, thankfully, right now, not literally at war, but there's always been tension. And as you say, the diplomatic relationship has been just uniformly bad. What does that mean for your personal identity?

Fatima Pashaei [00:04:54]:

I always identified as being, like, Muslim first. So my religious identity, I feel like, has sort of trumped any cultural identity that I have because I feel like that's how I'm perceived by the public anyway. Like, oh, she wears a headscarf. She's Muslim. No one looking at me really knows kinda what my background is. You know? Maybe I'm a white convert. Maybe you know, I I've gotten so many different guesses of what people think I am. And, of course, having the mixed heritage, like, does throw people off.

Fatima Pashaei [00:05:24]:

They're like, are you Albanian? Are you you know, I got I get all kinds of wild guesses Turkish. I've never closely identified, you know, with a culture, but just as being Muslim is the conversation starter, I think, for most people.

Méli Solomon [00:05:36]:

Right. Well, let's get into that more. It's interesting that in addition to this heritage from your father, you also now were in a marriage where there's this, in this case, a religious mix within Islam. You're both Muslim.

Fatima Pashaei [00:05:50]:

Right.

Méli Solomon [00:05:51]:

But Shia, Sunni, you're not the 1st Muslim I've interviewed who've said, oh, well, I'm I just call myself a Muslim. What I always hear and what I wanna check with you on is I hear that as a way to avoid scrutiny, as a way to avoid a difficult conversation usually around being Shia. So I'm curious about what it's about for you.

Fatima Pashaei [00:06:23]:

That's interesting. So Shia is the minority, when you look at Muslims across the world. I guess, because of my Iranian heritage in Iran, Shia is the predominant sect. I've just always identified as just American with an Iranian background and an immigrant father. I didn't feel like a minority growing up as a Muslim because that's the religion I was born into, and that's the religion other people were born into if they were Sunni. My husband is Pakistani background, and he is an immigrant himself. So he had a different experience, and he was also he was raised in Pakistan. So he he was the majority as well.

Fatima Pashaei [00:07:00]:

I think neither of us had kind of a minority complex when it came to, how we practice our faith.

Méli Solomon [00:07:08]:

Yeah. So interesting. So you've both well, but you were raised in America. Right? So it's interesting to hear you say, well, you know, you've just said a moment ago, well, Iran isn't really my major identifier. But then when you talk about being raised Shia, you commented immediately, well, in Iran, it's the majority, but that's not actually what you've experienced.

Fatima Pashaei [00:07:32]:

Yeah. I grew up with a mix of Muslim friends that were Shia and Sunni, so we never differentiated between and I've had other friends that were also raised in a mixed household of Tunisia. So it was just kind of normal for me to experience people of different sect in their background. And I think there's just the added layer of my mom being white and converting to Islam. Just being Muslim was always what my dad sort of emphasized. Muslim is good enough. You don't need to worry about what sect people belong to. Like, just find good Muslim friends.

Fatima Pashaei [00:08:06]:

So that's kind of how I was raised.

Méli Solomon [00:08:08]:

So did your mother convert to a certain sect?

Fatima Pashaei [00:08:11]:

You know, I'm not really clear on how my mom converted officially. My parents were married for a couple of years, maybe 2, 3 years. She didn't convert before they got married. So when they got married, she was just my mom wasn't really practicing Christian either. Her family was kind of go to church on Easter and Christmas Christians, and she was raised by a single mom. They were kind of loosey goosey on things. I think she started practicing being Muslim once she had kids. So that was about 3 years into their marriage.

Fatima Pashaei [00:08:41]:

And she just practiced the way that my dad practiced, so because he was Shia, she, you know, learned how to do the Shia prayers, but she never, to my knowledge, explored any other types of Islam or sects to consider.

Méli Solomon [00:08:55]:

Yeah. So so interesting. And this business about, well, being a Muslim is is good enough. Those are your words. Yeah. What I also sense is that by connecting as a Muslim rather than a Shia or Sunni, you are able to be friends with a variety of other kinds of Muslims and avoid stress points.

Fatima Pashaei [00:09:24]:

Yeah. And I think his point with that was mostly we're minorities here. So anybody that identifies as Muslim, that's good enough. So we can't be picky and say, oh, well, I'm not gonna be friends with that person because they practice this way. There's so few of us in the United States. So it's like, if you find a Muslim, great. That's just how he raised us. And and just being in the United States, there's not many Muslims.

Méli Solomon [00:09:50]:

Right. As a Jew, I I share that experience. It's a minority experience. It has nothing to do with religion. It just in this case, we share that where we are each minorities in the US. And the fact of being a minority means you do gravitate towards that grouping for all kinds of reasons. Okay. So given all of that, I then wanna shift to your experience in in the workplace, and I understand you have worked for the US federal government your entire adult life.

Méli Solomon [00:10:31]:

Is that correct?

Fatima Pashaei [00:10:32]:

Yeah. Since, like, 18. I started right working right after high school. It's the biggest employer in DC, and I grew up in DC. It wasn't any more thoughtful than that. They were hiring, and I applied, and I got in. And I really enjoyed the work that I did, so it became a career.

Méli Solomon [00:10:49]:

Yeah. The growing up in DC part is what makes that make so much sense. Because otherwise, I was like, how is it that you end up working in the federal government? It's certainly not something that I ever thought about, but I didn't grow up in DC. So it is a a geographic issue.

Fatima Pashaei [00:11:07]:

Certainly. Yes.

Méli Solomon [00:11:09]:

Have you worked in different departments, or have you stayed within a certain department?

Fatima Pashaei [00:11:14]:

So I worked at, Department of Labor. That's how I started out. I worked in OSHA, occupational safety and health. I worked there for about 4 years, and that was throughout college. I worked part time. I went to college in DC as well. I went to George Washington University. So it was also convenient to continue to work and also go to school.

Fatima Pashaei [00:11:33]:

And then afterward, my full federal job started at energy. I worked at Department of Energy, and that's where I continue to work. So I've been at energy for, like, 20 years.

Méli Solomon [00:11:42]:

And touching back a bit to the first part of our conversation, Fatima, thinking about the years you've been in the federal government, you've also gone through the 911 terrorist attack. Correct. As a Muslim working in DC, one of the sites of the attack, I'm curious to hear how that has felt for you just as an experiential thing, as as a human being working in this situation and and living in DC?

Fatima Pashaei [00:12:16]:

Yeah. On 9/11, I was actually, up that morning. I happened to turn on the news to see what the temperature was gonna be that day, and, I did see that the towers were hit in New York. I lived in Southwest DC at the time, which geographically is, like, less than 5 minutes from the Pentagon. I was kinda high up in my apartment complex, so I could actually, in the distance, see where the Pentagon was. So when the Pentagon actually got hit, like, my window shook. It was that much of an impact, so I felt it. Wow.

Fatima Pashaei [00:12:44]:

It was pretty terrifying. I was home, so I felt safe, but it was kind of a jolt to the system and just being that close. I could see the smoke coming out of the Pentagon from my apartment. It was a surreal day. It was very scary. Like all Americans, we had no idea what was going on. I quickly called all my family members because everybody was in DC. I went and picked up my sister from school that was walking distance from my house, just making sure everybody was at home and safe.

Fatima Pashaei [00:13:08]:

But, yeah, DC hit panic mode. My whole husband's, workforce came to my my home because they were scared of getting on public transportation because they didn't know, you know, if the transportation system was gonna get hit, what was going on. So we actually had people in our house, in our apartment until, like, the late afternoon until they felt safe to get on public transportation and go home. It was pretty scary. It was probably one of the scariest days that I've experienced.

Méli Solomon [00:13:32]:

Yeah. Understandably so. Absolutely. And I'm happy for your husband's colleagues that they had a a place that they could go and be together. Again, this is like we're gonna be together in this time of stress and uncertainty and fear and give ourselves some time to assess the situation, and then we can move on. Since then, how has it been to work in the federal government? You wear a hijab. You are clearly visually Muslim. Although, if you didn't have your hijab, I'm not so sure.

Méli Solomon [00:14:12]:

You're very light skinned, so it sounds like you you pass as white. Of course, there are white Muslims as well. I don't mean to imply that, but the hijab is what marks you out as a Muslim woman. How has it been to work in the government consistently wearing the hijab and being marked that way, especially considering the history of 911?

Fatima Pashaei [00:14:36]:

Yeah. It's been sort of an interesting experience. I would say I didn't feel I didn't feel any backlash, honestly, like, right after 911. I know a lot of people had very negative experiences. I felt like I was pretty sheltered. The office that I worked in, for example, was predominantly black, female, checking in on me, making sure everything's okay. I felt very loved, and that was very comforting for me. I would say it got bad for Muslims maybe a couple of years in after 9/11.

Fatima Pashaei [00:15:05]:

I know there were some initial backlash from the events that occurred and mostly because the names of the the people that attacked were Muslim names. So therefore, all Muslims were considered suspect. Obviously, putting a scarf on is identifying yourself very easily as Muslim. I didn't have any personal negative experiences from that, but going back to the workplace, my first full time job with the federal government was in a predominantly white male work environment, with a lot of former military. And I remember it was just, like, 1 month onto this new job, and I was, you know, 22 years old. They brought in this guy who is, like, ex CIA. He's giving this briefing on, like, terrorism, and I was like, oh, gosh. Where is he gonna go with this? And it was specifically related to operations that they were doing in Iraq.

Fatima Pashaei [00:15:52]:

I don't know if you remember, there was, like, a deck of cards of all the bad guys that they were going to catch when they went to Iraq. And I'm just sitting there and it's like a month into this job and we're just in training and I'm like, why do we need to hear this story? But anyway, I'm going with it and, you know, and he's pumping his chest and saying all this stuff. And then he puts a picture up on the screen of this guy who literally looks like my dad. And he was Iraqi, he was one of the I think he was the king card. His name was Kemikwali. But the first thing I saw when I saw him, I was like, okay, that guy looks just like my dad. He's Middle Eastern, has that look. And then he started making fun of this guy's physical features.

Fatima Pashaei [00:16:27]:

Look at his hair, like look how how much hair he has on his body, like he was just making all kinds of derogatory statements about him being Middle Eastern and Iraqi background. And I'm like, how about you focus on the bad things this guy has done? But he did it to ridicule and mock him. I just sat there kind of shocked, and I just looked at all the people in the room laughing. And I'm like, these are gonna be my coworkers. And no one thought anything he said was wrong because he's a bad guy and we can say whatever we want about him. There was nothing wrong, apparently, that people thought that he was doing when he was ridiculing how he looked. And, I just sat there and I'm like, yes, this is a bad guy, but this guy also looks like my dad, and he's just making fun of his physical features. And I just felt very shocked and kind of isolated from everybody in the group when I saw all of these people cracking up, laughing, and having no issue with that.

Fatima Pashaei [00:17:19]:

That was the first shock to my system. One person did come up to me afterwards and said, I don't know how you sat through that, and didn't walk out. He was from California, so he had just a different mindset than everybody else. He was the only one that saw that that was problematic. In that moment, I felt so alone, and that nobody understood why that was wrong. So that was my first shock to the system about how we're perceived by other people, and I didn't feel welcome. I did put in a complaint afterwards. I said, please don't ever bring that guy back again.

Fatima Pashaei [00:17:49]:

I felt so offended by the content that he provided. Take him off the list of speakers. And they did they were upset that I was upset, and so they did take that feedback. That was 2,004, so that was an early negative experience that I had with people just thinking it's okay to just say whatever you want because it was Muslims that did bad things.

Méli Solomon [00:18:08]:

Yeah. Golly. What an experience. 22, new in the job, and, again, it's this minority thing. You're both a woman in a male dominated area, and you're a Muslim in a non-Muslim area. And, also, you're nonmilitary in a in a very heavily military crowd. This this is what I'm hearing.

Fatima Pashaei [00:18:33]:

So just for some background on my story, my husband was deployed to Iraq. Yes. He's an immigrant. He's from Pakistan. He's Muslim. He's also a marine. So it's like we sacrificed our family. I was 7 months pregnant when he got deployed.

Méli Solomon [00:18:47]:

Wow.

Fatima Pashaei [00:18:47]:

So nobody knows that. I'm new to the office. Nobody knows anything about my backstory. Yeah. My husband was not here when I gave birth to our first son. Mhmm. I'm also the wife of a veteran. People don't know people's backstory, and so I'm just sitting there like, we sacrificed a lot for this country too.

Fatima Pashaei [00:19:05]:

My husband is a veteran of that war, so that was also sensitive for me too. Like, I had those deck of cards at home. I had all kinds of war memorabilia when he came back. But just to make light of that, that didn't sit right with me just on so many levels.

Méli Solomon [00:19:19]:

No. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's horrendous, and it happens in so many situations. Right? It's not just about Middle Eastern, and it's also it can be racial. It can be gender. It can be sexuality. I mean, these sorts of horrendous, incredibly insensitive situations have happened and do happen.

Méli Solomon [00:19:41]:

And sorry to say, I expect it will continue to happen. Again, it raises for me this this issue of being a minority. You've also highlighted the issue of what level of complexity are we seeing each other. Are you just seeing a picture on a on a card or are you seeing a bigger picture understanding family background, who you're married to? So at the time your husband you were married and your husband was deployed?

Fatima Pashaei [00:20:15]:

He was back from, deployment. He had come back a year before. Yeah. That previous year, he had been deployed.

Méli Solomon [00:20:22]:

Right. Okay. So I think this is such an important lesson to us all about how much we understand or don't understand about the other person. The religion, the gender, the cultural background, what kind of work you do, whether you're military or not, are you an academic, or are you in the arts, or, you know, what have you. All of these things do inform our worldview and how we operate and how we will receive messages coming at us. I'm sorry you had such a painful experience, but it's a terrific object lesson in being mindful of the environment and of our speech and how we're reacting to what is told to us. So thank you for being willing to to share that story with me. But since then, have those kinds of really uncomfortable situations continued to happen, or have you found that it's been more smooth sailing?

Fatima Pashaei [00:21:26]:

So, yeah, that was probably the most egregious instance where I felt really unwelcome. There have been other sort of really uncomfortable moments, like I went to interview for a job position internal to the department, having worked there for 7 years or so, and the first question the person asked me is, are you a US citizen? And it's like, you have to be a US citizen to work for the federal government. Why wouldn't I be a US citizen? Those types of awkward moments where they just see you and then feel compelled to ask questions. I'm like, would you ask that question if I look different? Probably not. So it's like these uncomfortable moments that I've had. Another time I remember I was traveling for work. I went to Savannah River, Georgia. They don't see people like me every day.

Fatima Pashaei [00:22:10]:

I arrived late in the evening, it was, summertime, and it was a little bit cool that evening, and I was wearing my scarf sort of like a shawl, like very loosely, sort of over my head, and she just looked at me and she said, oh honey, is it cold out? I was like, yeah, it's a little cold. And I wasn't getting that she was thinking my scarf was just a way to keep warm. But like you said, if I didn't wear a scarf, I don't think anybody would know I'm Muslim, so she just thought I was white and cold. And then she saw me the next morning, and her face completely changed. Because I was wearing my scarf more properly, dressed in professional suit, and it's like 85 degrees. So she knows I'm not cold, and it was just her whole demeanor changed. Those types of moments where I'm like, oh, she just realized I was Muslim. I wasn't cold last night.

Fatima Pashaei [00:22:54]:

So I've had those types of moments, but I've also had really good moments with people, especially I think because I worked in the same place for such a long time. Like, people correcting other people when they say my name wrong. People educating other people that I'm fasting and it's Ramadan. Why are you offering food? Why are we doing this party when Fatima can't eat anything? So I've had some really kind of wonderful moments. I like some good laughs, you know, with coworkers. I don't punish people for being ignorant. I do recognize that for a lot of people, I am maybe their only Muslim friend, the only person that they've known really well that's, you know, a practicing Muslim. And so it's just a different experience for them.

Fatima Pashaei [00:23:32]:

So they're learning too, and so just giving people grace for not knowing things and unintentionally saying things that could be taken as offensive. I don't get offended very easily, but I do try to make them teachable moments just so people don't do it to other people. If you see somebody else wearing a scarf, maybe don't do that. Don't say that. And here's why they would be offended or why it's offensive to do that. So, like, the person that asked me if I was a US citizen, he ended up being my boss a couple years later. We had a really good working relationship. He made a mistake.

Fatima Pashaei [00:24:02]:

He shouldn't have done that. And, hopefully, he doesn't do that again to somebody else. Those are the moments that I focus on is the positive moments too, not just the negative experiences.

Méli Solomon [00:24:13]:

Yeah. And hats off to you. That is a gracious way to approach people, to approach life. So Fatima, you just mentioned that there have been really good moments, some teachable moments, and times when colleagues have corrected other colleagues about why are you doing this event with food when Fatima can't eat or you're saying her name incorrectly or all those sorts of things, which is great. What do you think allows for that? Because I think that kind of behavior is something that I would certainly like to see more of. So this is a little teachable moment for all of us is what in the situation or the dynamics between the people do you think has fostered those moments?

Fatima Pashaei [00:25:02]:

So I'm pretty social and extroverted. So even if people don't talk to me, I talk to them. And I think just even from a religious perspective, we're raised to basically be welcoming to everybody. So I think I bring that to my workplace with how I conduct myself with others, recognizing that for some people, they have very little knowledge or experience with Muslims. So I think I've made it, and maybe I just I do this kind of even subconsciously. I try to connect with lots of people even in the workplace. You know, there's some introverts, so I make an attempt to get to know them too. Because I think in some cases, and I do feel sometimes for some people, the scarf is off putting.

Fatima Pashaei [00:25:43]:

Right? Maybe she's very religious. I don't want to offend her by doing something wrong, so I'll just stay away. And I remember I had one coworker who was my age, and everybody was much older than us. He had very little interaction with me, and I was like, everybody's like our parents' age. Why hasn't he tried to have a conversation with me? So I went up to him one day, and I just jokingly said, you know I speak English. Right? And he just started cracking up laughing. And I was like, I'm just saying we're, like, the only 2 people under the age of 30 in this office. How's it going? Do you wanna go grab lunch or something? And, we're still very good friends.

Fatima Pashaei [00:26:24]:

And so I've just always made an attempt to kinda get to know people and so that they feel comfortable getting to know me. From a teachable moment, another example is I had a coworker that I worked with for 2 or 3 years. I hadn't heard from him in years, and then he he emailed me. This was, like, last year, and he said, hey. Wanted to reach out to you. I just hired a woman in my office, and she wears a hijab. Can you remind me and refresh me on what the rules are? I don't wanna unintentionally offend her. And I was like, wow.

Fatima Pashaei [00:26:51]:

Even though we didn't work together for very long, the first person he thought to ask was me and to reach back to make sure that he approached her appropriately. Because he's like, I know there's, like, conduct rules about even physical interaction. Some people that are very religious might not wanna, like, shake hands with the opposite gender. So those types of rules. Can you just give me a refresher class? Simple thing I told him is just to ask her because everybody practices differently. Some people are totally fine with handshakes and hugs, and others would prefer not. So just ask her what her preference is, and that's all you need to do. Just have that open conversation with her.

Fatima Pashaei [00:27:26]:

And he was like, okay. So just ask. Ask before I initiate. And I was like, yes. You got it. So that's where I I feel like being Muslim in the workplace is really important because you're you're just providing so many teachable moments for other people too and giving them kind of a resource. It's your phone a friend moment. Right? And they know that they can they can call me if they have a question.

Fatima Pashaei [00:27:47]:

And just the idea that he didn't wanna offend her in any way, I thought that that was that was incredibly sweet that he did that.

Méli Solomon [00:27:54]:

Yeah. Absolutely. That was exactly what I was thinking. Incredibly thoughtful, very sweet, and how great that he knew you. He knew someone to reach out to. And I suppose he could've, you know, googled it. Right? But so much better to to ask someone personally who he felt like he could get a clear straight answer, and he he got a helpful one line. You know? Ask first.

Méli Solomon [00:28:17]:

You know? That's Right. Something anybody can hang on to, and that it's okay to ask. Right? Even that is, I think, for many of us, a question. Like, is it okay to even ask? So what I'm also hearing I mean, I'm hearing all kinds of tips, really. You know? Being sociable, being welcoming, the grace you show, just cutting people's slack.

Fatima Pashaei [00:28:43]:

You

Méli Solomon [00:28:43]:

know? Giving them the benefit of the doubt, reaching out, taking that initiative to reach out when especially with, you know, that one colleague who is your age. You joked with him. That's another you know, what a what a great approach. I love that you did that and it clearly worked. Right? Right. Yeah. It broke the ice and it got you into conversation and and it all worked out. What I'm also really aware of here, and we've touched on this a few times in our conversation, Fatima, is again what it's like to be a minority.

Méli Solomon [00:29:18]:

Right? So in this case, you've been an I assume you continue to be a bit of an ambassador or representative, willingly or unwillingly. It sounds like you do it willingly to be kind of the face of Islam in in many situations. I know I have had situations where I am the face of Judaism. No. I lived in Germany. I met many people for whom I was the first Jew they'd ever met. I'm talking adults. And, wow, what a heavy burden.

Méli Solomon [00:29:55]:

You know? What are they going to ask? What are they going to say? What kinds of assumptions or misunderstandings or just lack of knowledge are they going to have? And, you know, what kind of apology are they going to make, right, for history? So I I really understand this, this situation and it it can, as you say in in various situations, it can open the door to a wonderful teachable moment. You can cut through all kinds of garbage and get to just a human to human. You know? These are my beliefs. This is my practice. These are the holidays. You know? Right now, we're in Ramadan, or right now, I'm doing Passover, and this is the food or this is the the lack of food. Those moments are so precious.

Fatima Pashaei [00:30:48]:

It's part of the human experience.

Méli Solomon [00:30:50]:

Yes.

Fatima Pashaei [00:30:51]:

And it also humanizes you. Right? It's like the next Muslim you meet and I always tell people this, like, full caveat disclosure. The next Muslim you meet might not be like me. Right? They might have totally different viewpoints about things. I obviously have a unique backstory with the mixed family with different types of practices, and we were the Muslims that did Christmas because we always went to my grandmother's house. And other Muslims, maybe both of their parents were Muslim, and they come from a long line of Muslims on both sides. And so, you know, that was, like, the that was, like, the shocker for my husband. I was like, oh, we're doing Christmas.

Fatima Pashaei [00:31:24]:

And he's like, what? What what do you mean we're doing Christmas? And I was like, we always do Christmas. We're gonna do Christmas. We do Christmas in my family. So we're the Muslims who do Christmas. So the next the next Muslim you meet might not do Christmas, and they might think you're crazy for bringing that up. And that's why I share my story with people. Like, this is my background, and this is how I practice, and and it's unique. And every person you meet is going to be unique and have their own story, and their own background of how they were raised.

Méli Solomon [00:31:55]:

This business of where the Muslims who do Christmas is really interesting. There, you know, there are Jews in the south who do Christmas. What I then wonder about for you is okay. So you grew up with your mother's side doing Christmas. Does that mean that you're doing some element of Christmas in your married home?

Fatima Pashaei [00:32:16]:

Yeah. We do. Because I grew up doing

Méli Solomon [00:32:20]:

see that coming. Okay.

Fatima Pashaei [00:32:21]:

I I mean, I I stopped buying Christmas trees, but, when my kids were young, because it was such a it was such a time that I look forward to with my family because we spent time with my mom's family during Christmas, but I continued that with my family. When my kids were very young, we would do a Christmas tree. We'd do we would do gifts. I would have my mom over and my siblings over for Christmas cookies the night before. And it was small gifts. Like, we didn't do commercialized Christmas, but it was like I made little boxes of cookies for people. And it was just for me, it was always family time. So that was the level of celebration that we did in our family, and my husband loved it.

Fatima Pashaei [00:32:59]:

He was like, this is so fun. But it was weird. It was weird for him at the beginning when I was like, oh, I wanna do Christmas with the kids because that was I had such fond memories of it when I was a child, with my grandmother. So we continued that. My mom does still a little Christmas tree in her house too because it that was the best time of the year for her. So she wanted to remember that and honor that. And my dad was really great about it. He was like, yeah.

Fatima Pashaei [00:33:23]:

We always went to see my grandmother on Christmas, and that was, like, our annual trip. He always encouraged that we celebrate with with family. And he's like, well, that's what they celebrate, and we can celebrate with them. There's nothing wrong with that.

Méli Solomon [00:33:34]:

Yeah. It is so interesting. I think it gets it can get challenging when we have these mixed backgrounds and these mixed families. How do you handle this? You have 2 religions or 2 cultures or, you know, whatever have you. Do you do both? Do you do each but at different times? Do like, how do you handle that? And it sounds like for you, the emphasis had always been on Christmas is family time. You know, it's just the way I think about Thanksgiving. Yeah. Right? This is family time, and it could be family and friends.

Méli Solomon [00:34:15]:

It could be extended family, but really gathering together and in that case, hopefully, showing some gratitude for all that you have in the world. And for you, Christmas had come down through your mother's family as a time for family and okay. So you don't go all out with big gifts and really the whole thing, but it's something that you're gathering around and and celebrating being together.

Fatima Pashaei [00:34:46]:

That's exactly what we did. That's that was the purpose. And that's why we continue to do it. Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:34:52]:

I'm not hearing any conflict with your Muslim or I identity or with Islamic beliefs or practice.

Fatima Pashaei [00:35:01]:

No. Because we didn't get into, like, was Jesus actually born on this day? We didn't get into the, like, mechanics of, like, what does it mean to celebrate Christmas. We celebrated it more as a celebration of family as opposed to focusing on the Christian religious aspect of what Christmas represented. And my mom's family was not practicing in that way, that they were doing prayers or

Méli Solomon [00:35:26]:

They weren't going to midnight mass or something.

Fatima Pashaei [00:35:29]:

Yeah. And they were Methodist. They didn't do the the mass or anything like that. But it was it was just always for her family, it was always just family time. Right? That was the time that everybody got together and ate and exchanged small gifts. So that's basically the element of Christmas that we incorporated into our family as well.

Méli Solomon [00:35:47]:

Right. And then tried the cookies and maybe built a gingerbread house or something like that.

Fatima Pashaei [00:35:51]:

All the cookies. Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:35:52]:

Cookies. Very important. 1 of the 4 food groups. It's interesting to think about this. I think I've gone through phases of thinking about this because my mother was protestant, my dad was Jewish, and we we grew up with a Christmas tree And doing Passover, Seder, none of it with any religious content. But when I got deeper into my Jewish identity and practice, you know, I do not celebrate Christmas.

Fatima Pashaei [00:36:21]:

Mhmm.

Méli Solomon [00:36:21]:

I haven't for a long time. I've gone through periods of being more and less annoyed by the predominance of Christmas at that time of year here in America. Mhmm. And also when I was in Germany. Right? That's that's really a a Christian. It's less observant, but Christianity is the religion Right. You know, in terms of dominance in the culture. And I've often felt just so annoyed.

Méli Solomon [00:36:49]:

It just felt like it was getting pushed down my throat and Mhmm. And I didn't didn't appreciate that. So it sounds like you've found a more positive accommodation, but what I'm also noting is that part of that accommodation is stripping the religion out.

Fatima Pashaei [00:37:08]:

Right.

Méli Solomon [00:37:09]:

Like, that that's what allows for the accommodation.

Fatima Pashaei [00:37:12]:

Yeah. Basically.

Méli Solomon [00:37:13]:

Yeah. This is not a criticism. It's an observation.

Fatima Pashaei [00:37:16]:

I think that's that's a fair point. Yeah.

Méli Solomon [00:37:19]:

But it works for you, and that's that's the that's the part that it's important.

Fatima Pashaei [00:37:23]:

We took the Christ out of Christmas a little bit. I mean, obviously, he's a revered prophet in our tradition as well, but, the holiday is not part of Muslim celebrations.

Méli Solomon [00:37:35]:

Right. But the thing you just said, Fatima, also, I'm now wondering maybe a difference between my Jewish experience and your Muslim experience regarding Christmas. We see Christ as a teacher. Right? We do not see Christ as our savior. Mhmm. But I think that and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that in Islam, Christ has more of a profile. I mean, for Jews, Christ is like, we don't talk about Christ. I mean, we acknowledge he was a person, but, you know, he was a Jew.

Méli Solomon [00:38:12]:

He was a teacher, and that's it. Is is that is that an accurate statement?

Fatima Pashaei [00:38:19]:

I would say he has a very high status in Islam. We don't have the story of the crucifixion in Islam. We have that he actually ascended up to heaven, and we have a similar belief that Christians believe that when the world comes to an end, that he is supposed to come back. So he does have a very high status in Islam as well, but we don't have the crucifixion story. We have that he ascended and that he'll be returning back for us as well, very similar to the Christian tradition where we digress is is how he died or if he died. So we don't have the story of he died for our sins. We have that he was ascended to heaven and that he will be returning to right the world when it's the end of the world before judgment day. When the earth is in chaos, he's supposed to return.

Fatima Pashaei [00:39:04]:

So we do have a similar belief as the Christians in regarding Christ.

Méli Solomon [00:39:11]:

Thank you for that bit of education. Do you see Christ as the Christians do as both divine and human?

Fatima Pashaei [00:39:21]:

We don't have the son of God concept. We do believe that he was able to perform miracles. So we do have the, raising the dead and healing people. We have that similar story. We do have the virgin birth story and that his birth itself was a miracle and that when he was born, that he spoke and that in itself was a miracle. So our prophets are sort of ranked by the number of or by their powers, and what differentiates him from prophet Muhammad is prophet Muhammad, did not perform miracles. So there are some prophets in our tradition that do perform miracles, and Christ, or Isa is the Arabic word is for for Jesus, that he did prophet Isa did perform those miracles to convince people that he was a messenger. He was one of the prophets that performed miracles.

Méli Solomon [00:40:10]:

Fascinating. Well, nothing like ending our lively conversation on a really rich educational note. So thank you for that, and thank you, Fatima, for this entire conversation and for coming on my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I really appreciate it, and I hope that this is not the only time we will have the opportunity to talk.

Fatima Pashaei [00:40:36]:

Great. Thank you. Really had a great time talking with you as well.

Méli Solomon [00:40:41]:

Thank you for listening. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. If you'd like to learn more about that project, a link to the website is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.