Bonus. Tying the Knot in Faith

Episode 80.   [Bonus.]
Wedding ceremonies are universal and central to many religious and cultural groups. But they vary widely. In this conversation with four guests from different religious traditions – Judaism, Mormonism, Islam and the Baha'i faith – we explore the role of the officiant, who that is, the role of the Divine, contracts and other things. This conversation grew out of the Elevate Podcasting summit hosted by BYU Broadcasting. Steve Perry, host of their In Good Faith podcast, has joined me in co-hosting this discussion.


Highlights:
·       Is a religious leader required?

·       Role of the Divine in wedding ceremonies

·       Marriage contracts

·       Cultural and religious 

·       Till death do us part or for eternity

References:
Islamic marriage contract – Khutbah Nikah
Jewish marriage contract – Ketubah
Jewish Ketubah examples – Ketubah.com
Sharon Brous – The Amen Effect

Social Media links for guests:
Steve Perry, co-host – In Good Faith podcast
Uzma Jafri – Mommying While Muslim  podcast
Uzma Jafri, Instagram –  @mommyingwhilemuslimpodcast
Uzma Jafri – Mommying While Muslim website
Nava Kavelin – Podcrushed podcast
Lex Rofeberg – Judaism Unbound podcast
Carl Youngblood – Mormon Transhumanist Association website

Social Media links for Méli:
Website – Talking with God Project
LinkedIn – Meli Solomon
Facebook – Meli Solomon


Transcript:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/1851013/episodes/16061562-tying-the-knot-in-faith-bonus


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The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. When you hear about how observant Christians, Jews and Muslims live their faith, new ideas and questions arise:  Is your way similar or different?  Is there an idea or practice that you want to explore?  Understanding how other people live opens your mind and heart to new people you meet. 

Comments?  Questions? Email  Méli at – info@talkingwithgodproject.org
 

The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/

Transcript

Tying the Knot in Faith transcript

Méli [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more, check out the link in the show notes. Today's episode is number 80, which is a bonus episode focusing on wedding ceremonies with 4 guests from various religious traditions. This grew out of a conversation at the recent Elevate Podcasting Summit at BYU.

Méli [00:00:53]:

In gratitude for that opportunity, I invited Steve Perry, host of their podcast In Good Faith, to cohost this discussion with me. Links to everyone's podcasts and more are listed in the show notes. And now let's get right into the conversation. So good morning, and welcome all. This is a special and really delightful opportunity to talk about the wedding ceremony from multiple perspectives. This is a unique conversation hosted by BYU Radio and my podcast Living Our Beliefs. And I turn it over to Steve to initiate introductions.

Steve Perry [00:01:38]:

I'm Steve Perry, the host of the In Good Faith podcast, and we've been really lucky to host Elevate a podcast symposium inviting people who do faith and spirituality, which is just sort of my vibe and what I love to dig into. And so it's been a whole week of kindred spirits from different perspectives. I love what I've learned. Here's an opportunity, Meli, that you have sort of curated and put together just out of really interesting side conversations. I'm excited to learn. Let's briefly go around. Maybe each mention your name, your podcast, and, the faith tradition you come from and are part of.

Nava Kavelin [00:02:19]:

I'm Nava, and I host a podcast called Podcrushed, and I represent the Baha'i faith.

Steve Perry [00:02:25]:

Thank you.

Uzma Jafri [00:02:26]:

My name is Uzma Jafri. I'm cohost of Mommying While Muslim podcast, and I am am Muslim.

Carl Youngblood [00:02:33]:

My name is Carl Youngblood. I'm president of the Mormon Transhumanist Association, and we're, about to launch a podcast called Pioneers, and I'm a practicing Latter-day Saint.

Lex Rofeberg [00:02:47]:

I'm Lex Rofeberg. I am the co-host and producer of the Judaism Unbound podcast, and I'm here repping Judaism.

Méli [00:02:56]:

And my name is Meli Solomon, and as I mentioned, my podcast is Living Our Beliefs.

Steve Perry [00:03:03]:

Meli, this started, as I said, as a side conversation, during lunch, I think. So talk about how this started and then we can dive into some of these specifics.

Méli [00:03:12]:

Thank you, Steve. So yesterday over lunch, some of us were in the Sukka, and somehow this conversation about wedding ceremonies got going, and it just was so fruitful that I thought we need a panel. So here we are. A key question that I want us to kick off with is, in the wedding ceremony from each of your traditions, who officiates? Does it need to be a clergy or not? So let's start with that.

Lex Rofeberg [00:03:47]:

I'll go ahead. Traditionally, no. Traditionally, in a Jewish wedding, it does not need to be a clergy person who's officiating. Officiating. There's not really even a notion of the rabbi channeling something from like, the rabbi doesn't serve that kind of intermediary role that I think may be present in other faiths of sort of channeling God's purpose into a ritual. Mhmm. What I would say is it has become the case that it is very common for rabbis or or cantors, another form of Jewish leadership, to to be officiants at weddings today, but that's largely a product of being in an American cultural context where, a lot of Jews are familiar with Christian weddings. Yeah.

Lex Rofeberg [00:04:29]:

And where at Christian weddings that many of us have attended and been influenced by, you know, the latest in a long line of cultural sharing between different religious traditions. We've noticed that clergy often lead, and that's become common. But there's really become a bit of a movement, Jewishly and otherwise, for folks to just reach out to their beloved friends who know them really well, who may be knowledgeable about Jewish tradition and be able to learn the liturgy of the service of a of a wedding service. And often, couples have found that they really want somebody who knows them well. And if they don't have a relationship rabbi that's super close, they would prefer to have somebody who is just a friend of theirs who could who could lead the ceremony. And that that meets all traditional requirements. That's not against any rules.

Steve Perry [00:05:15]:

And civic requirements as well? Do they have to certify in any way?

Lex Rofeberg [00:05:19]:

So that gets to all sorts of American legal questions, but there are common ways that you can go online and become sort of, quote, unquote, ordained as a a reverend in the Universal Life Church, or that's the most common one, or in other universalist minded bodies. I actually did that before I became a rabbi because some friends asked me to officiate, and I was not yet ordained as clergy. So the only way I could do that and have it meet the legal requirements was if I became a quote, unquote, reverend. So I'm technically both a reverend and a rabbi,

Nava Kavelin [00:05:49]:

I guess.

Lex Rofeberg [00:05:50]:

But

Nava Kavelin [00:05:51]:

We're so lucky.

Steve Perry [00:05:52]:

Yeah. Inter and entropy. Can't wait to introduce you as reverend reverend rabbi doctor

Lex Rofeberg [00:05:57]:

There were rabbis at different moments in history that used the term reverend. No joke. But, but you can you can just go Lex. That's fine. Yeah.

Carl Youngblood [00:06:05]:

Rev Lex.

Nava Kavelin [00:06:05]:

Right?

Lex Rofeberg [00:06:06]:

Rev Lex. Yes.

Nava Kavelin [00:06:07]:

I can share from from in the Baha'i community, there's only very few requirements, for a wedding. So there's a lot of appreciation for diversity and really allowing the unique kind of cultural expression to come forth. So a wedding in Thailand might look different than a wedding in Puerto Rico. What I've seen most often at weddings is someone who feels like an emcee inviting people up to say prayers, perform music. Maybe they'll say something about sort of the meaning of of a wedding in the perform music. Maybe they'll say something about sort of the meaning of of a wedding in the Baha'i context, but I've never seen an officiant. I've never seen only one person lead kind of that that role, but you do have to follow the civic requirement. So whatever the the local community mandates, if someone needs to be ordained, then that would happen. But the couple kind of chooses, I think, who they think will be a great emcee. It's not even necessarily it was very close to him in the weddings that I've been to. Yeah.

Carl Youngblood [00:06:53]:

So in the Latter-day Saint tradition, we have someone called a sealer who must actually be a holder of the holy priesthood, and they're actually, selected hand selected by the upper authorities of the church. It's a fairly important role that is, that is served by relatively few people. Mhmm.

Méli [00:07:17]:

So those few sealers actually conduct many ceremonies.

Steve Perry [00:07:24]:

Yes.

Méli [00:07:25]:

And do they do they get to know the couple? I mean, pointing to to Lex's point about about whether the the officiant is familiar with the couple, it strikes me that if a sealer is conducting many ceremonies, they might not know the couple, or not know them well. 

Carl Youngblood [00:07:52]:

If a sealer is a member of their extended family, they might try to request that that sealer perform their wedding. But in many cases, the sealer does not know the people that he's performing it for and has been briefed on, a few details about them prior to performing the ceremony, but often only minutes in advance or, maybe, maybe he does a little homework, but there's not a whole lot of preparation actually.

Méli [00:08:19]:

Interesting. Uzma?

Uzma Jafri [00:08:21]:

In the Muslim faith, you know, I you bring up an interesting point, Lex. I don't think you have to be a clergy person because I was remembering the first one I ever attended. It was technically an elopement. But any community member who likely has some kind of civic certification or something in order to make it a legal marriage as well can perform that ceremony.

Steve Perry [00:08:42]:

In the states, maybe a justice of the peace or a county clerk or someone who's authorized.

Uzma Jafri [00:08:47]:

Well, that would be for a civic ceremony, but, like, the actual religious contract does not necessarily have to be executed by clergy. It could be, like, a community member who also happens to have that civic certification. So it becomes both legal in the Islamic sense and then legal in the civic sense.

Méli [00:09:04]:

You mean kind of at the same time? At the same time. Yeah. Interesting. I wanna add to that something that I heard from a a Muslim about the role of the imam in general.

Nava Kavelin [00:09:16]:

Mhmm.

Méli [00:09:17]:

He noted that unlike Judaism and Christianity, there aren't really seminary programs. That an imam does not hold that kind of role, there isn't that kind of educational process, that it's really a bit like what Lex was saying that it's somebody who is knowledgeable, very knowledgeable and recognized in the community. Is that correct, Uzma?

Uzma Jafri [00:09:43]:

I I think so, but the only contention that I would have with that is that in America, we actually do have seminaries now where people are training both, Muslim, men and women in scholarship. So there's at least 3 that I can think of, but it's more a scholarship focus, not necessarily that they're only learning how to conduct a ceremony, but all the ceremonies that are involved, in Islam. There's actually not that many. It's pretty much marriage, birth, and death. Like, they're big ones for us. But the scholarship in retaining that, Islamic knowledge in this part of the world, I think that is, their emphasis. Did that answer your question?

Méli [00:10:24]:

Yes. But I would add that there's also the the Friday prayers.

Uzma Jafri [00:10:29]:

Oh, yes. That. Right. But, again, that doesn't require any mom. It would be the person you could have Friday prayers, which is for men. And whoever has the most Quran memorized, that's the most knowledgeable person in the room and the most qualified in order to to lead that Friday prayer and that sermon. So you not everybody has those public speaking skills, so it's gonna be the combination of you know that much scripture and you also have public speaking skills. Surprisingly, not that many have both, so whoever has that combination is the most qualified in order to lead it.

Uzma Jafri [00:11:01]:

Yeah.

Steve Perry [00:11:02]:

So I I kind of like to hear about why this ceremony is important in in that that may be the same or different in any of these faiths we're representing today.

Nava Kavelin [00:11:13]:

So I mentioned that there were very few requirements, but one of the central requirements is that the couple has to say the phrase, we will all verily abide by the will of God, and there have to be at least 2 Baha'i witnesses in the wedding, and that you have to follow sort of civic requirements. And then everything else is really up to the couple. Simplicity is encouraged, but I've been to plenty of weddings that were not simple, so people really have a lot of latitude. But the idea oh, and the third requirement is that both sets of living parents, have to give consent, and the couple has to give consent. So no arranged marriages. You know, everyone has to be all in. And so the significance of the ceremony and all of those requirements is that it emphasizes the unity of 2 families under the will of God. So that's kind of what the ceremony is about, making sure that that comes through.

Nava Kavelin [00:11:59]:

And then everything else is personal preference, cultural, but but I would say that's the significance of a Baha'i wedding. Unity of 2 families under the will of God.

Steve Perry [00:12:07]:

So is there any mediation if one set of in-laws is not as happy as well?

Nava Kavelin [00:12:11]:

You can you can meet with your local bodies. There's, like, a period of time where you can try to help the parents come on board. But if they ultimately refuse, the couple can't get married in the Baha'i faith.

Steve Perry [00:12:20]:

Okay.

Uzma Jafri [00:12:21]:

Oh, wow. I have so many questions. So in Islam, I'm gonna answer the importance of marriage because I feel like I heard that question coming from you. Mhmm. Marriage is specifically in our tradition. Mohammed had said marriage is half of our faith. And I think the reason for that is because that family unit is so critical. Like, it's not just social contracts that are important, contracts that are important.

Uzma Jafri [00:12:45]:

It's society and community is so important, and it starts with the family. So we're very big on that, and that's why everybody's encouraged to get married. Do people never? Yeah. Absolutely. I'm sure it happens. But those are more outliers rather than the rule. So the rule is the expectation that everybody will get married so that your natural tendencies, which is to pursue companionship and pursue sexual relations, are done within a legal Islamic, union, which is marriage only. So, in terms of the second part of that question was the importance of the wedding ceremony.

Uzma Jafri [00:13:18]:

The only thing that's important is that it needs to be public, and the reason you do that is so that the community knows these 2 people are not dating. They are officially again, these two families have merged. They have given their consent and their promise to God to try for as long as this marriage is there to just be with each other and help build the society, the community around them.

Carl Youngblood [00:13:39]:

Among Latter-day Saints, the wedding ceremony the importance of the wedding ceremony is that it really is the beginning of a life together that these two individuals are, joining and, becoming 1. And we believe that that will extend beyond the grave. And so, really, it's the beginning of an eternity together for this couple and their offspring and their family.

Lex Rofeberg [00:14:04]:

So the blessing and curse simultaneously of Jewish tradition is that there are a lot of different ways to answer the why of almost every ritual. We have abundant books and hot takes from abundant centuries and millennia.

Steve Perry [00:14:21]:

Are you are you calling Midrash hot takes?

Lex Rofeberg [00:14:24]:

I would call Midrash fan fiction. I would call Talmud hot takes. And I by the way, like, I'm glad you're laughing, but I I actually I actually think that, I think that's what Midrash, which is for those who don't know, it's a historic way of sort of filling the gaps between Torah text. I I think it's fan fiction, but I'll speak more for me and my understanding of what a understanding of what a Jewish wedding is than I will for all rabbis or all Jews because I don't think there is a uniform answer. For me, the central feature so there's a few central features. I resonate very much with the need for it to be public. The the Jewish wedding is a collective moment. It's actually not entirely clear that you can have really deep, rich conversations about, like, quote, unquote, who the wedding is for.

Lex Rofeberg [00:15:10]:

Is it for the 2 partners who are being married? Absolutely. I work very hard in the ceremonies I officiate for their passions and desires to come through deeply and for their ceremony to look in some way unlike any ceremony that's ever existed before because their relationship is unlike any that has existed before. And there is a way in which the the wedding ceremony is also for all of the gathered community who is there. The word witness has come up from a few of you. I often say as I'm kick starting my officiated weddings, you're not watching. It's not that the ceremony is happening at the front of the room and you are external to it and and seeing it. It's actually that the horizontal plane of the ground that we are all on, that is the ritual. So the people sitting in the pews and the people at the chuppah, at the wedding canopy are all part of it.

Lex Rofeberg [00:16:02]:

And to the extent anyone's watching, it's like the world or all, I mean, you could if you think God is above you, then I guess maybe God. But, like, I think that's very important, and I think that that comes through in the precise words that are said and also the the hyperlinks that are made. So there there's a number of sevens that are employed in Jewish weddings and that is very purposeful. There's 7 circles that are traditionally walked and that's sort of a physical embodiment of the notion in other cultures of, like, tying the knot quote unquote. You are literally encircling. Imagine, like, circles going around your arm or wrapping around your little finger. You are literally encircling one another as 2 partners in a couple, and and you're fastening a kind of knot. You're creating a new kind of coherent whole that wasn't there before.

Lex Rofeberg [00:16:47]:

So my my core understanding of a Jewish wedding is it is creating a new world, and that's why there's sevens. So 7 Jewishly is a hyperlink to the 7 days of creation in the book of Genesis. And so whenever you have 7 of something in our liturgy, it's often sort of asserting a new kind of creation. And so you need 7 blessings to implicitly name that this couple is coming together in a kind of full complete sense and creating a the new world that is their life together, if that makes sense.

Carl Youngblood [00:17:17]:

If I could also chime in, I think in there's a very similar concept in our, Latter-day Saint weddings in that essentially, this couple is invited and, encouraged to follow in the footsteps of God and essentially, begin a new creation. And, we believe that eternal life is ultimately to become like our heavenly parents, and therefore to have an entire world or universe, that we that would ultimately be in charge of or or be creating or and so the the wedding is the beginning of that process, really.

Méli [00:17:56]:

These two last comments really lead us, I think, quite naturally to the question of the presence and the role of the divine in the service. Mhmm. This was a a surprising bit of the conversation yesterday that I'd like to return to today. There have been already a few comments about whether the officiant is somehow channeling God, but again I'd just like to hear from each of you what what is the sense in your faith tradition of the presence of the divine and and any languaging you use around that, and and how important is that?

Uzma Jafri [00:18:40]:

I I think I'll go first mostly because I wasn't there for the conversation, yesterday in this hookup, but, my understanding of what you're asking is the role of the divine at the wedding ceremony. And in the Muslim tradition, I do wanna clarify I'm not representing Islam. I'm here speaking on Islam as I understand it and my experience of it. But there's no channeling of God in anything that we do. It's certainly not through a person. It's what we I think I pride myself on as a Muslim is our one on one connection with God. Like, we're welcome to talk to him. We don't need to publicly display any of our sins or good deeds because he is the witness that we care about and we witness all of his miracles on this earth, including these couples that are coming together and signing a contract because contracts are really holy.

Uzma Jafri [00:19:29]:

And in our scriptures, violation of a contract is a really grave sin. And so this is one of the highest contracts and it's a literal contract. It's a piece of paper that the couple is signing. And I think, that channeling is not necessarily there, but we are here as vice regents of God on this planet. We are assigned to witness and to do good works and to do as much as we can to make our scales heavy on the last day. We are all witness witness witness is coming up a lot. That is also the first pillar of Islam to witness that there is only one God and he's the highest authority. So, there's not as much channeling as there is executing that role as vice regent and as witness at a wedding for all attendees as well as if there's clergy or if there's a layperson with some kind of civic certification performing the ceremony.

Steve Perry [00:20:21]:

I was reminded of a wedding I went to, a protestant wedding. And what 2 of you have said about the people attending, they're not just there as spectators but actual participants. And there was an actual covenant made by the the person leading the ceremony that all of us here today do I'm trying to quote, but not exactly, do agree to support this couple. And so suddenly I thought, I'm not just watching. Like, I have to think about this. I decided yes. I'm willing to. And then all all who could do that were invited to say amen, which I did very full heartedly.

Steve Perry [00:21:03]:

But I had mentally gone through a process of I need to think about this and we can support each other in just that was important.

Lex Rofeberg [00:21:12]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I Amin so Amin is the Hebrew word for amen. It's one of those that hasn't really been translated. Also, hallelujah is a Hebrew word that means hallelujah. But, like, what what you're describing, I I believe amain is a word with with almost magical powers. I think that in English, in Hebrew, in whatever language, the idea that one may not know precisely what was said before, because I'm I'm often, you know, leading services that are in Hebrew, and many even the Jews in the room may not know precisely what it means. The notion that amain can actively affirm just through 2 syllables is incredibly important, and it it achieves what I was talking about before.

Lex Rofeberg [00:22:00]:

A friend of my podcast, Sharon Brause, wrote a book called The Amen Effect, The The Amen Effect. That's all about the power that that is created when you say implicitly, we're not the ones doing this up here. It's also all of you in the pews. You do have to think actively and decide, like you said, Steve, am I affirming this? There's a little bit of a peer pressure at a wedding. It's not a peer pressure. It's it's kind of a manipulative sense. It would be hard.

Uzma Jafri [00:22:25]:

Just here for the food.

Lex Rofeberg [00:22:25]:

Yeah. But but I think that that's unbelievably important, and it points to all the ways in which that this is I mean, to the question about God, which is where this originally was. Like, it is about God, and for many, it isn't. I mean, Jewishly, it's interesting. God is present in all the liturgy. God is sort of around in the bible and the Talmud. And if you went into almost any synagogue in the in the United States, especially, but even around the world and asked the community, like, show of hands. Who here isn't sure if they believe in God? Ton of hands would go up.

Lex Rofeberg [00:23:02]:

If you asked who here, including who comes here, like, every week, actively doesn't believe in God as a central organizing principle of their Jewish practice? I think fewer hands, but still some hands. And certainly among the folks that aren't going to services all the time, but are still connected to their Judaism. And so at a wedding, weddings are really interesting because they are religious occasions for some and they're also not for others. Like, there there is a mixture of people almost by definition because folks invite their extended family. And so you have a situation where simultaneously, God is present and God isn't present. And the for me, as an officiant, the job is to try and, like, create liturgy that honors the relationship to the divine for those for whom that's central and also allows those participants, not viewers, to participate even if they're not deeply theologically minded. And so that's an interesting balancing act, and it depends on the couple. If a couple really like, God is very important to them, which funny enough comes up more with my interfaith couples that I work often when one is Jewish and one is Christian or one is Jewish and one is Hindu.

Lex Rofeberg [00:24:09]:

God is, like, a central organizing principle for them because they both relate to that even though they're not the same religious tradition. Sometimes when it's 2 Jews, God's not really what binds them as much as, like, they connect to Jewish tradition and Jewish family and community. So that can be an interesting balancing act.

Steve Perry [00:24:24]:

And Bailey, you asked about the divine at that moment of saying amen. That's when I personally felt what I interpret as god's presence

Nava Kavelin [00:24:33]:

Mhmm.

Lex Rofeberg [00:24:33]:

In

Steve Perry [00:24:33]:

the room. And I thought, wow. My commitment brought that to me.

Méli [00:24:39]:

Yeah. It's so interesting hearing these different perspectives because one of the things that's coming up for me is that any wedding ceremony really has these multiple levels and and roles that there's this perhaps a religious, a connecting with God, a being witnessed by, if one can say that, by the divine for the couple in particular that we are standing before God and affirming our commitment to each other for until death do us part, or for the latter day saints for eternity, and yet it's also a social witnessing. You know I imagine especially for those couples interfaith or or intra faith for whom God is is not really a central organizing principle, it is certainly a a public forum, big or small, an opportunity for family and friends to to come together, to to witness as we've said, these two people saying, I commit to you and I see you. I care and I know you. I am here in public making this declaration of commitment. I also just want to drop into this lively conversation that all of what we've said and and this will go on is we're talking about heterosexual marriages. And I I just I really need to acknowledge that we do in America and really in the world live in a heteronormative society and are leaving out consciously. Between 2 men or 2 women is really a similar but different, dynamic.

Méli [00:26:44]:

So I I just wanted to acknowledge that because that fact is so often left out and unacknowledged. So just wanted to put a pin in that. Steve?

Nava Kavelin [00:26:57]:

Can I offer also on that question of the Divine, please? I forgot to mention that in the Baha'i faith, we don't have clergy at all, which is a little bit of a distinct, I guess, element and why why we wouldn't have clergy perform a ceremony. But there's this idea that every person has a responsibility to individually and independently investigate truth. Every person needs to read sacred texts every morning evening, have their devotional practice. But, really, that this phrase that we will all verily abide by the will of God is, like, the central focus of the wedding. So everything you do is under the will of god. That's sort of our our premise, and that each person has an individual relationship with God, but that it's strengthened in community and with witnesses, and that we each try to sort of channel the love of God and and have it flow through us and and reflect it to others. So the divine should be there. And I've I've never been to a Baha'i wedding that didn't have a lot of prayers and a lot of music and that didn't feel very sacred in the ceremony, but that's still the couple's choice.

Steve Perry [00:27:54]:

Yeah. Well, 2 questions that come to to mind for him. One probably is off topic. We can skip it. It's who has the most fun? And I'm I'm thinking that might be Hindu weddings.

Nava Kavelin [00:28:04]:

Oh, I I agree.

Lex Rofeberg [00:28:06]:

My favorite well, I sorry. There's no favorites. It's one of my favorite. I've I've I've been involved in a couple Jewish Hindu weddings and co officiated one of them. And when you have the Jewish practice of lifting people up on chairs at the party during during the Hora and you have the Hindu custom of, like, incredible dance like, planned coordinated dances that are done for the entire like, the combo of those two things, Hashem, God was, like, very much vibing out at the Jewish. That's that that, the other thing I say by the way, I I appreciate what you said. I truly, like, was I was not thinking about any particular coupling connection when I was talking about weddings. Like, when I officiate weddings between 2 people of the same gender or between nonbinary folks and somebody of whatever gender, there's actually not a lot that I shift other than some of the the liturgical pronouns in the Hebrew.

Lex Rofeberg [00:29:02]:

That's not every rabbi, but, like, just offering that I I you're right that there's a heteronormativity that drives a lot of this, and there are ways that have already been in the works in some of these traditions to to translate to different kinds of ...

Steve Perry [00:29:16]:

gender formations. So maybe the deeper question that I have than just the party is how are the wedding rituals or weddings in particular spoken of to kids as they grow up? Is there something that that is pointing like here is a ritual for you to experience? Is it spoken about that that way? Or is it just sort of, well, we're in love. Let's let's get married. Let's talk to our leader. How do we do this?

Carl Youngblood [00:29:43]:

I'd say in the Latter day Saint tradition, marriage is, strongly emphasized from the early an early age that it's something that both, boys and girls are encouraged to consider as their, sort of highest achievement and their most important, you know, focus of their devotion is towards, becoming a good husband and father in the case of a young boy or becoming a good, wife and mother in the case of a girl. And that is a big part of a lot of our lessons in Sunday school and other things that we experience. So it's something we're really sort of groomed for as is to try to see the family as one of the most important aspects of our lives.

Uzma Jafri [00:30:28]:

As a mom, I think it just comes up, you know, when your little boy is like, mommy, well, I'm gonna grow up and marry you. And then, you know, your daughter's saying

Nava Kavelin [00:30:36]:

the same thing to dad. Yeah.

Uzma Jafri [00:30:37]:

Yeah. Daddy, can I just marry you when I grow up? Because I mean, we are their first loves. Right? So that's what they You're nice. Yeah. You're really nice. And, like, we all well, we share a family bed. So it was like, you know, like, you sleep with Abu, but, like, yeah, I we have a shared family bed, and so all of our kids slept with us. Like, I never did the crib thing and cried out.

Uzma Jafri [00:30:56]:

Very attachment parenting oriented. So, you know, to them, it was like, oh, so, like, this is the only bed we've ever known. We're just gonna grow bigger and stay in the bed. No. That's not how this is gonna work. You're gonna grow up and you're gonna marry somebody and you're gonna share their bed. Oh, why would I do that? Well, are you gonna be there? No. I'm pretty sure she's gonna have an issue with that.

Uzma Jafri [00:31:16]:

So that's how it came up, but I think I I personally made a conscientious effort not to make meeting somebody getting married, like, the ultimate goal because culturally, not religiously, that was something that happened. I'm of South Asian descent, and so that was really big. Like, that was the highest achievement from my mother. Like, you're gonna get married and you're gonna have children, but my dad had groomed me to you're gonna grow up and you're gonna, you know, have a career and be independent and all these things. You can also you should also get married because it is half your faith that will happen. But I made a conscious effort not to put that on my kids. It was just as they were growing and naturally asking the questions that kids ask, I was like, oh, you can do that, but you can have, you know, when, mom, what is sex? Okay. So that kind of stemmed the conversation when they were, like, in elementary school now.

Uzma Jafri [00:32:04]:

You can have sex within the balance of marriage. So that's how the marriage, talk came up for us.

Carl Youngblood [00:32:10]:

And I would just say that there is still a tension between, you know, Latter day Saints and the surrounding culture around how to balance, you know, family life, a devotion to eventually getting married with your career goals and your educational pursuits and especially, gender roles and those kind of things.

Nava Kavelin [00:32:27]:

So,

Carl Youngblood [00:32:27]:

yeah, we experienced that too.

Nava Kavelin [00:32:29]:

Yeah. Yeah. In the Baha'i faith, marriage is not a law, but it's strongly encouraged. And I would say there are 3 phrases that every Baha'i child has heard at some point, which is one that marriage is a fortress of well-being. So this sense that it will improve your well-being, and you'll sort of reflect to one another the ways you need to grow and advance. So it's it's it's also like a protection for your soul because it helps with the development of your soul. The other is that marriage is through all the worlds of god. I think we share that with the Mormons.

Nava Kavelin [00:32:56]:

It's it does is not death till death do us part. And then because it's so important and because it's it's lifelong, although divorce is allowed in the Baha'i faith, that you should deeply investigate the character of the person you're gonna marry so that you really know who you're bringing on for that eternal journey.

Steve Perry [00:33:12]:

Bailey, you mentioned something about contract, that marriage contract. Like, what what are you thinking there?

Méli [00:33:19]:

Yeah. Well, this was one of the things that came up in our conversation yesterday was that in Judaism and Islam, there is a written contract and that this is really important, but from a Christian perspective that that that wasn't really the case. So I wanted to just bring that in because it was such a an interesting and surprising differentiation. So, Uzma, would you like to begin and explain the name of the contract and kind of the role?

Uzma Jafri [00:33:47]:

Yeah. So it's the Chutba Danica, which is the marriage contract. I guess Chutba is like technically the the Friday sermon, but it comes from, probably the Arabic and I think, Rabbi Lex Yeah. Will will know kataba is like writing. Mhmm. It has to be written, like, literally. And it there's a specific clause in there where I, the son of so and so, take on the daughter of so and so for this amount which is the majher. The majher is the the bridegroom's gift to the bride, and it must be given even if it's just an iron ring is the quote.

Uzma Jafri [00:34:24]:

But it's typically expected that whatever he is capable of giving her, he will give her. She is not expected to contribute to the household. And so if she wants to go to the spa or get her nails done or whatever she wants to do, this bridegroom's gift is supposed to sustain her. It's not like you're selling your daughter because that is going to her. In some cultures, that is not what actually goes out in practice, but religiously this is what's supposed to happen. So this specific clause is said and the bridegroom and the bride's father or her wali, her, representative or guardian, will, like, hold hands, and the imam will have them hold hands because that is really important where right hand to right hand you're holding, that is the bay'ad. That is kind of like the testimony that, yes, I'm saying this clause and I am doing this. Now that part of the written contract can't happen until the girl is first presented.

Uzma Jafri [00:35:13]:

The bride is first presented with the written contract. Do you daughters of so and so accept son of so and so for this Maher contract? And so she is asked first and typically religiously supposed to be asked alone to make sure that this is consensual and she's not being married against her will. If that is then executed, then they will go and, perform the ceremony more in public where the men are, you know, exchanging this clause and exchanging the bayah in front of the community. And then that contract is then signed by the bride first, then the groom, and then the 2 witnesses that are legal requirements.

Lex Rofeberg [00:35:46]:

Mhmm.

Uzma Jafri [00:35:47]:

Pretty formal.

Lex Rofeberg [00:35:49]:

So absolutely. I mean, what you described, the katba?

Nava Kavelin [00:35:54]:

The katba. 

Lex Rofeberg [00:35:54]:

I mean, that's ketubah is the Hebrew word. And they're I mean, they're definitely the same notion, and it really just means written thing, written document on a I mean, it's often translated with the word contract that we're using. I tend to avoid the word contract personally when I'm facilitating Ketubah signings. Not because I think it's, like, incorrect, and there are couples for whom it is really a contract and it's in the way that you were describing, Uzma. And there there's a traditional Aramaic text that is very specific and goes through similar things and requires a certain monetary valued ring in the same way that you were talking about with an iron ring. There's also all sorts of rewritten new kinds of ketubahs. So there's actually a ketuba.com.

Nava Kavelin [00:36:39]:

Oh, wow.

Lex Rofeberg [00:36:39]:

That is one of the when I work with couples, one of the first things I tell them to do is, you know, this is 6 months before or a year before. Go to ketuba.com because I want you to look through all the different options. There's there's Hebrew English and the English translations. I want you to look at the different kinds of things that people are articulating as their core ways of committing to one another, and I want you to really sit with, like, which of these feels right? Which of these doesn't? Like, what words are you seeing in these contracts? They're like, that's not that's not right for what we're trying to do. Which are you seeing? You're like, yes. That that's precisely the adjective we want to be to one another. And I actually it's almost like a kind of homework before the ceremony because the ketubah, not only is it in the Jewish tradition a written document, it's often like an art piece. It it operates as much as, like, something that lives on the wall of your house after the wedding, and it's a reminder afterwards of that glorious day of your life that hopefully is beautiful.

Lex Rofeberg [00:37:34]:

My own ketubah, me and my wife reached out to a friend of ours who's both a rabbi and an artist. We didn't know what it was gonna look like. We trusted him and, but it's in the shape of of the city of Providence where Valerie and I met and where we we still live, and there's colors that he chose that tie to particular things and symbology. And then there's the text. And the text does matter, but there's also ways in all religious traditions where especially when you're operating in a language that is not your first language, there's the text and what it says, and then there's the the meaning behind the text. And for a lot of couples, ketubahs, if you ask them what it is, it's like, oh, yeah. That's that beautiful piece of of art on my wall. And you're like, oh, yeah.

Lex Rofeberg [00:38:14]:

And it says that you love one another and that you commit to oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also I also that. But the ketubah signing, I I actually use this this mnemonic device or whatever, because it's often the first piece of the wedding. Sometimes it's the night before with weddings I officiate. And I I quote Stevie Wonder, and I say, signed, sealed, delivered. You're yours and you're yours to the to the 2 people.

Lex Rofeberg [00:38:36]:

Signed being the ketubah, the written document that they're committing in written words to one another. Sealed, I loved that Carl used the word sealer. I actually may, like, use that in the future. But sealed I mean, there's the notion of sealed with a kiss, right, at the end of the wedding ceremony kissing. But but the ceremony and the liturgy sealing almost like a container, like sealing completely the bond that is the couple. And then delivered is like we deliver it through what is often called the party. But for for Judaism, the party is is in many senses a continuation of the ritual. It's not like the ritual's done now and now we're partying.

Lex Rofeberg [00:39:12]:

It's like the the dancing and the the the dinner and the whatever is is actually part of the simcha, part of the joy. So I'd I'd leave it there and just say that the written contract is a really important piece and people do put a lot of thought into the text, and it's more than just the words of the text.

Méli [00:39:29]:

Thank you, Lex. Those are fine words to end on. I so appreciate everyone's contribution to this lively conversation. We could surely carry on for quite a while. I I'd like to think of this as, you know, in a way like the wedding ceremony. We have come together. We have signed, sealed, well, maybe not with a kiss, and and delivered, many many thank you, Lex. Many thoughts and perspectives, new information, to the audience and to each other.

Méli [00:40:01]:

And and that for me and hopefully for all of us is such a blessing. So thank you all. There have been many, non-English words mentioned in this conversation. I will make sure to have all of those in the show notes with translations so that we really do better understand each other and our own traditions.

Lex Rofeberg [00:40:26]:

Thank you. 

Thank you.

Thank you.

Méli [00:40:26]:

Thank you for listening. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. If you'd like to keep learning together and keep up to date on the project, sign up for the newsletter. A link is in the show note. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.