Are Ancient Religions Relevant Today? – Meli Solomon, Sue Howard and Katrina Kincade

Episode 75.
In celebration of my 75th podcast episode, I am highlighting three different ways that people live their ancient religion today. I talk about keeping Kosher (Jewish dietary laws), Sue Howard shares her evangelical Christian tenet of the Nine Fruits of the Holy Spirit, and Katrina Kincade explains her conversion or reversion to Islam and starting to wear a hijab (Muslim veil) at work. 

Highlights:
·       Daily practice makes abstract concepts real. 

·       We live into our religion over time. It evolves as we learn and change. 

·       Meli – Kashrut (Jewish dietary laws) infuses daily life with holiness.

·       Sue – Nine Fruits of the Holy Spirit gifts.

·       Sue – Pursuing spiritual life leads to bring peace and joy, blessing and love.

·       Katrina – Finding balance and peace in Islam during tumultuous times.

·       Katrina – Starting to wear a hijab at work. 

References:
Nine Fruits of the Holy Spirit [Galatians 5:22-23] – “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”  NIV 

Mussar, a Jewish practice – https://mussarinstitute.org

Sue Howard's podcast episode 'A Gift from God for a Christian' 

Katrina Kincade's podcast episode 'A New Public Muslim Face'


Social Media links for Sue:
LinkedIn – Sue Howard
Holistic Leadership website
Grove Books, collection on spirituality
The Vineyard Church 

Social Media links for Katrina:   
LinkedIn – Katrina Kincade
Instagram – @katrinakincade
Twitter – @katrinaknews
TikTok – @katrinatheereporter 

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project website
LinkedIn – Meli Solomon
Facebook – Meli Solomon


Transcript:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/1851013/episodes/15619902-are-ancient-religions-relevant-today-meli-solomon-sue-howard-and-katrina-kincade


Follow the podcast!
The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. When you hear about how observant Christians, Jews and Muslims live their faith, new ideas and questions arise:  Is your way similar or different?  Is there an idea or practice that you want to explore?  Understanding how other people live opens your mind and heart to new people you meet. 

Comments?  Questions? Email  Méli at – info@talkingwithgodproject.org
 

The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/

Transcript

Are Ancient Traditions Relevant Today?  transcript

Méli Solomon, Sue Howard, Katrina Kincaid

Meli  [00:00:05]:

Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. Ancient religion can seem abstract, remote, irrelevant. Daily practice can make it relevant and is an ongoing process of learning and exploration.

Meli  [00:00:58]:

In honor of my 75th podcast episode, I'm going to share three examples of how people incorporate ancient religion today. First up is my own practice of kashrut, the Jewish dietary laws. 2nd, Sue Howard, an evangelical Christian, talks about the 7 fruits of the Holy Spirit and her leadership. The third example is Katrina Kinkade, a Muslim TV news reporter who talks about converting and wearing a veil at work. By focusing on stories of how ordinary people live their faith each day, we learn about ourselves and others. Welcome. Example 1. I follow conservative Judaism and appreciate the mix of honoring the tradition from a contemporary perspective.

Meli  [00:01:54]:

The letter and spirit of the law as it were. One of those laws that I do follow is kashrut, the dietary laws, which is outlined in the Bible in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. I started keeping what I called modified kosher before shifting from a liberal reform synagogue, Beit Aleph Meditative Synagogue, to my first conservative synagogue, Congregation Beth Shalom, both in Seattle. I had been a member of Beit Aleph for about 10 years and had really valued it, growing in my observance, becoming an adult bat mitzvah, and spending several years on the board. Then I moved to congregation Beth Shalom for a more observant community and to find a deeper connection to Judaism. I made these changes for me and me alone, but friends noticed and asked questions. From non-religious and more liberal friends, I got asked why. They would say things like it's illogical and you're so smart.

Meli  [00:03:03]:

That felt hurtful. After a while, I could articulate that it isn't about logic and rationality, but rather about awareness and connection. Other friends asked out of real curiosity and those conversations were challenging, but helpful discussions. As I thought through the issue much later, a more observant friend argued from the other side that having separate meat and dairy pots and pans really wasn't such a big deal. This was also hard to hear. I'm sure she meant it to be supportive, but it felt critical. Like I wasn't brave or strong enough. It's amazing to me how what seems like a small practical shift can feel so big emotionally.

Meli  [00:03:52]:

I just didn't have the energy at the time. So why do I keep Kosher? Observing kashrut is one of the many ways that my Judaism infuses my daily life, raising an otherwise utilitarian activity that I do each day to a slightly holier level. And it's rewarding. After all, isn't seeing value in activities and words central to practicing a religion? Stricter strains of a religion can seem just a bunch of do's and don'ts, and I don't deny that appearance. But that's an awfully hollow view to me, one that looks only at the laws without considering the content and impact of incorporating the values into your life. So it is with Kashrut for me. Since those early days, my kosher diet has evolved and changed as my situation has changed and my comfort has evolved. When I lived in Berlin, I kept a dairy kitchen.

Meli  [00:04:57]:

It was a small space, and I was there for an unknown length of time. So I kept things clean and simple. When I settled back into the US, I had more room and added a separate set of meat dishes. Last Passover, I bought yet more dishes so I could have friends over. The details can seem absurd but are also steps towards a larger whole. I recognize some choices are irrational. This is not about science, but about finding and expressing meaning. Although I see Torah as God inspired and written by men, following kashrut simply because it's stated in Torah is insufficient for me.

Meli  [00:05:41]:

By the same token, observing kashrut is part of expressing my Jewish identity because it is written in Torah. Also, it affects my social relationships with fellow congregants. Clarifying levels of kashrut is a primary issue when eating at each other's homes along with other dietary restrictions, of course. I know it can seem fussy, but it's really about respecting each other in my book. I am far from alone in discovering new ways to connect with my ancient tradition. One of the highlights of talking with my guests is hearing about their experience. What aspect of observance is engaging and what is that process for them? Example 2, Sue Howard is an evangelical Christian. Her PhD experience was a catalyst for seeing her evangelicalism in a new light.

Meli  [00:06:41]:

She realized that faith was more important than leadership. She thinks that when one lives in spirit, then you are an influencer, and that is the meaning of leadership. While living a life in Christ and according to the seven [sic: correct is nine] fruits of the Holy Spirit form the core of her approach personally and professionally, she is sensitive to the context. For her, when you live a God-centric life, you are constantly refueled by the love and inspiration from God. Towards the end of the conversation, I asked about the nine fruits of the holy spirit and how they are present in her life. Here's an excerpt from that conversation. In another conversation, you've spoken of the nine fruits of the Holy Spirit, love, joy, patience, kindness, peace, faithfulness, gentleness, goodness, and self control. I'm interested in how these play out in your life.

Meli  [00:07:49]:

Is there a ranking for you? Are there practical applications of these terms? Because there's certainly there's no denying these are all lovely things. I think you can't kind of argue with how nice these ideas are. But I'm wondering how they show up in your life.

Sue [00:08:08]:

The Holy Spirit gives gifts and these are some of the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to people who are following Jesus, who are seeking the Holy Spirit. I do feel at certain times that I have experienced God's joy even in trials in the midst of difficult situations. And in fact, sometimes it's in the most difficult situations that I experience the most peace and the most joy because I'm calling on God more strongly, maybe even with a sense of desperation, and I'm also having other people pray for me. And at times when there's intercessory prayer or there's a trial situation or some pain or difficulty, that reassurance, the peace of God which passes all understanding is something that you can't really explain to anybody unless you experience it. But I have experienced the peace of God, and I know that things are going to be okay. The joy of the Lord is my strength. It's that joy, the joy that was set before Jesus. He endured the cross for the joy that was set before him.

Sue [00:09:25]:

And that joy is an unspeakable joy and it bubbles up and wells up. It can catch you unawares. There's nothing else like joy in the Holy Spirit. It's an amazing quality. I I would like to have that more in my life, but I have at least experienced, tasted that joy. Love again is a filling and a giving out, and sometimes when I am in community in the church, for example, in prayer ministry or in a connect group, and I'm speaking about God, I I get such an overflow of love in that place for another person. That's not me. It's something God has given me at that moment.

Sue [00:10:08]:

The other fruits of the spirit, longsuffering, I mean, tolerance, patience, perseverance, those qualities, definitely, I draw on when I'm feeling maybe something's unfair or people who are treating me, you know, in a way that I don't think is appropriately right for who I am. They may not know who I am. So long suffering, you just have to bear with one another. We know that people are broken, and perseverance is also about the long haul journey that you keep going with God even though you can't necessarily see how things are gonna work out. You can trust in that space that God is there. And the others, I mean, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control, and they are all things that I focus on more at different times or another. I do really think it's important to practice kindness. When you talk about practicing faith, that's something that we can all do more of every day, be kind to others, love our neighbor as ourselves.

Sue [00:11:16]:

Goodness, again, you know, do good to to others around you. Don't do evil, do good. If you can do something nice for somebody, do that. Why would you not, you know, be good and kind to other people? Faithfulness, that is about faithfulness to God. If he invites you to do something, God has invited me for the last 8 years to run a home group. God knows that I have been faithful to that ask in my life. Gentleness and self control, and perhaps self control is my least inhabited fruit. I try, but my self control can sometimes be slightly lacking.

Sue [00:11:55]:

That goes back to the habits of prayer. Gentleness, let your gentleness be evident to all. That is a quality you can't fabricate. People have said to me, you're very warm. I do try not to be harsh. I do try to listen, don't always do it perfectly. I do try to be open to another person. I try to recognize when I'm getting angry and take steps to avoid speaking something I might later regret.

Sue [00:12:27]:

So I think in various different ways, more or less, you know, they're all really qualities that you can turn back to, and it's good for self-reflection. How much of these do I possess, if any? I mean, people know you by your fruits. If you don't have any, you could question whether or not your spiritual life is actually very healthy.

Meli  [00:12:50]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And it it's interesting in hearing you talk about these different qualities. What it brings to mind is a Jewish practice of reflection called Musar. It's an ancient practice of focusing on a character trait, patience, humility. There are 13 core, but there are many others besides. I hear echoes of that. And having gone through 3 rounds of of being in a Mussar practice, I can appreciate how valuable focusing on character traits is in terms of deepening one's spiritual life and simply being a better person?

Sue [00:13:39]:

Well, at the end of the day, having a spiritual life, having life in spirit, will lead to blessing for yourself and for those around you. It's not a selfish act to pursue God. It's an act of self-care that leads to love loving God, loving yourself, and loving other people. So I think any focus on examining your character in light of what God says to you to look at is going to be helpful. Self-examination is a good starting point, a good place to explore the spiritual life. And if you're actually asking God to help you in this process, then he will always be responsive. He will always speak. He will always show up.

Sue [00:14:38]:

He will always show you the way. He will show you something about yourself, something about other people that you can learn and grow from. Personal development and growth in life, spiritual development, spiritual formation. We are invited onto a journey of adventure to grow as people. Certainly, where we end up in life shouldn't be where we began particularly. Hopefully, we would have learned something.

Meli  [00:15:04]:

In this bit of conversation, Sue was talking about her relationship with God, how she receives guidance for behavior and attitude, and how valuable that is to her in her daily life, at work and with her family. She and I follow different religions. And despite the label conservative Judaism, I hold more liberal values on several points. That said, we respect each other and have had many helpful and engaging conversations besides our conversation for the podcast. Here's an excerpt from that conversation. When did you convert to Islam, and why was that?

Katrina [00:16:15]:

Yeah. It was around late 2019 kind of going into 2020, I felt myself kind of exploring more. I was I wasn't Catholic still, so it wasn't like I went from being Catholic to to Muslim. That switch didn't happen. I was kind of atheist, if you will, for a while. And then I had had a friend of mine who I was very close with and who was Muslim. We were kind of leading into the pandemic, you know, late 2019. It was right after I graduated from college.

Katrina [00:16:53]:

I had a chaotic night out with my friend, and I remember, like, just having to stir and wake up in the morning. And I looked over, and I saw them on the floor praying. And I remember being like, am I watching something I'm not supposed to be watching? I was like, am I interrupting something? So I went back to sleep. Like, I I pretended. Then in the morning, I was like, hey. I I saw you pray this morning. And they were like, yeah. You know, my morning prayer.

Katrina [00:17:18]:

And I was like, how after a night like that? Do you have the energy to wake up before, you know, the sun's even up and pray? And they were like, you know, it just just kinda helps me feel balanced. And I was like, tell me more about that because I had just graduated college, moved to a new place away from home on my own, and it was a very tumultuous time in my life. And so they kind of taught me a little bit about why they love the religion, and I did a lot of research on my own. And then, of course, we hit a very tumultuous time in the world, the pandemic along with all the Black Lives Matter movements. And I just kept finding myself drawn to it and drawn to something that brought me peace like it did my friend. And I reverted as we as we say.

Meli  [00:18:06]:

She was aware that her friends practiced Islam and had learned something about the faith already. Seeing her friends wake up early to pray was not completely out of the blue, but rather witnessing the practical reality. Making that shift from abstract knowledge to lived experience is key and a transition we each need to make. Her friends helped her to understand that living the faith had the structure of prayer times, but that it didn't need to be so rigidly practiced. When she asked about praying 5 times a day, her friend said, you have to give yourself grace and that they don't feel bad if they don't make all 5 each day. Rather, it's a way to find peace. Katrina remembered thinking that she could use some peace during the day, not surprising given the intensity of her public facing job. She's kept this mentality about praying, whether it's talking with God or just being in the moment and having alone time.

Meli  [00:19:13]:

Knowing that there is some being watching over her brings her peace. So Katrina found peace in Islam. Though as someone new to the faith and given the challenges of COVID 19, she was still sorting out her expression at the time of our conversation. Like Sue, she went on to talk about how her faith shows up at work. Another place of abstract concept, meeting lived reality. Since she is in broadcast news and since she was now a Muslim, the visible expression was an obvious issue. Representation and inspiring younger Muslim women and girls matter to her. I had seen her in person and in photographs both with and without avail.

Meli  [00:20:01]:

So I was curious about how she lived her faith and the visibility of veiling.

Katrina [00:20:07]:

Yeah. So for me with, hijab, since I've kind of reverted, I've gone back and forth, especially during Ramadan. I will wear it more as that is the holy month. I find something very special and continuing in that peace of really giving myself, especially while I'm fasting, really giving myself fully to the religion. And for me, that that looks like wearing my hijab more. As someone who's a revert, you know, I'm still learning my place and what I want the religion to look like for me and how I present it. So I don't wear it full time. Part of that is still navigating things around, like, my job.

Katrina [00:20:48]:

And the fact that I didn't come on air originally wearing a hijab. And so what that would look like if I were to ever transition to be a full time hijabi. Like so for me, it's kind of a it's multifaceted. But, honestly, I love wearing it when I'm in public and and people know and people see that. I I think there's beauty in being modest, and I love my hair. I'm learning to embrace different natural styles as a black woman, but at the same time, I love different styles of hijab. And I love when people compliment it and being like, yeah. Like, this does look equally as beautiful as having my hair out in different ways.

Katrina [00:21:31]:

And equally significant of you meeting me with my hijab on and seeing that I can be a news reporter, that I that I am a news reporter, and that that's a positive thing. And I'm doing positive stories. Like, combating sometimes what people have of stereotypes and what they believe someone who wears a hijab might be or might look like.

Meli  [00:21:52]:

A lot of complexity in that.

Katrina [00:21:55]:

There is. There is. There's less than 10 women on TV, in TV news, specifically local TV news who wear the hijabs on air. I'm fortunate to know a couple of them, and, I mean, it's not like that hasn't come from speaking with them without their own hardships and their own decisions that they had to make. But, overall, I think in this industry where we are so publicly broadcasted, it's important to, 1, show how multifaceted we can be as women and how diverse we can be as a religion. I think that's one of the most beautiful things. And that does mean showing all of the different sides of what Islam looks like.

Meli  [00:22:33]:

I hear these various ways of presenting yourself. You're very newly converted or reverted, as you say, So I can really appreciate that you are in a process of of sorting and finding your way.

Katrina [00:22:50]:

I think that process is what makes us better people, right, is being willing to not go full force in to something. Because I know that there are a lot of young Muslim girls who maybe haven't even reverted, who have grown up at who are still trying to figure out their identity, and who some of them grow up bringing a hijab to school and then end up not wanting to wear it as adults. I enjoy the research and the nuances of the religion in that way and learning and being a part of that and being a part of that discovery of how each of us embrace religion and what that looks like on us.

Meli  [00:23:28]:

As I mentioned at the start, living our beliefs, exploring how and how much to follow the ancient traditions is a lifelong process. Sometimes it's private. Sometimes it's more public and takes courage. My Jewish dietary decisions are private but are inspired by and affect socializing. Sue's Christian values play out in her work and family relationships. Katrina's reversion to Islam and the decision to sometimes wear a veil is the most public expression of the 3. These are just three examples, and each of us decides where religion shows up in our daily life. There's no one right way.

Meli  [00:24:13]:

The question is, what is right for you and for now? Hopefully, hearing these three examples close together has inspired you to think about how you are living your beliefs and what you'd like to explore next. As I told Katrina, the sorting, the learning, the reevaluating and shifting how one is expressing one's religion takes a lifetime, which is a good thing. Thank you for listening. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. If you'd like to keep learning together and keep up to date on the project, sign up for the newsletter at www.talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Until next time. Bye bye.