Texts Meet a Jewish Coaching Methodology – David Levin-Kruss

Episode 74.
Rabbi David Levin-Kruss is a Jerusalem-based life coach, educator, and community organizer. David sees himself as a bridge between Jewish wisdom and those who want to utilize this wisdom to live more meaningful lives. In this conversation, we talk about his coaching practice often using a text to explore issues in the client’s life.

David has held educational and leadership positions at the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee, Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies, Melitz Centers for Jewish Zionist Education and at Stanmore Synagogue in north-west London.

Highlights:
·       Basics of coaching: forward-looking, strength-based, and problem-solving approach

·       Coaching as a mechanism and the client already having the answers within them

·       Rabbi Jonathan Sacks’ view on coaching and contemporary problems

·       Technique of reframing negative texts or songs into positive messages

·       Emphasis on peace over absolute truth or justice in a Jewish law court

·       Differences between education and coaching, emphasizing the role of the teacher in drawing out understanding within the student

·       Value of interreligious dialogue and listening to people teach their own faith's texts

Social Media links for David:
Email – david.levin.kruss@gmail.com
Article about David’s methodology – https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-tinkertoy-kid-2/


Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project
LinkedIn – Meli Solomon
Facebook – Meli Solomon


Transcript:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/1851013/episodes/15548253-texts-meet-a-jewish-coaching-methodology-david-levin-kruss


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The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. When you hear about how observant Christians, Jews and Muslims live their faith, new ideas and questions arise:  Is your way similar or different?  Is there an idea or practice that you want to explore?  Understanding how other people live opens your mind and heart to new people you meet. 

Comments?  Questions? Email  Méli at – info@talkingwithgodproject.org
 

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Transcript

David Levin-Kruss transcript

Using Text as a Jewish Coaching Methodology

Meli  [00:00:05]:

Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meili Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and sign up for the newsletter so you keep up to date, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org.

Today's episode is number 74, and my guest is Rabbi David Levin-Kruss. David is a life coach, educator, and community organizer. He sees himself as a bridge between Jewish wisdom and those who want to utilize this wisdom to live more meaningful lives. In this conversation, we talk about his coaching practice, often using text to explore issues in the client's life. David lives in Jerusalem with his family. More information about him and an article about his coaching methodology is listed in the show notes. Hello, David. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I'm so pleased to have you on today.

David [00:01:33]:

Good to be here.

Meli  [00:01:34]:

I'd like to start with my usual first question. What is your cultural and religious identity?

David [00:01:41]:

I originally come from South Africa. I live in Israel. Other aspects of my identity are important and mean something to me, but the central core of my identity is being Jewish.

Meli  [00:01:55]:

And what denomination would you identify with?

David [00:01:58]:

I am orthodox, but I do need to say orthodox is not a denomination because it doesn't work like the other denominations in Judaism, which has a central body and a rabbinic body. Orthodox is really a world, and there are many people in this world who think very differently and act very differently. So I see myself as part of the orthodox world rather than as belonging to a particular denomination.

Meli  [00:02:23]:

It's really interesting. I've I've never heard someone say that. I I have certainly been under the impression that orthodoxy is is a denomination and that maybe there are multiple bodies.

David [00:02:38]:

It's not only that there are multiple bodies. A lot of what happens is very informal. Some of the greatest rabbis in the last 200 years did not have rabbinic ordination from anybody. They were just regarded as rabbis because they were so knowledgeable, and people respected them so much. There's synagogues that belong to nobody at all but will define themselves as orthodox because of the way they practice and the way that they think. Also, if you look at the multiplicity of the world, it can include people like me who are open to the modern world and who are pushing the boundaries and people who are living in closed communities. So it's really like a world with everything that that that entails. Looking at it from the outside, it just seems very, very bewildering.

David [00:03:24]:

But even think of orthodoxy, not as like, oh, this might be like a denomination of Christianity, but more, this is like a state in the United States. With lots of different things going on, it's much, much more understandable.

Meli  [00:03:39]:

Yeah. That's interesting. I'm going to have to think more about that. So however we're defining orthodoxy, were you raised within that world?

David [00:03:49]:

In nominally, that's exactly where the answer is. My family went to an Orthodox synagogue when the census came around in South Africa every 10 years. They wrote they were Orthodox Jews, but my family did not keep Kosher outside of the house. They did not observe Shabbat, but they saw themselves nevertheless as part of this world.

Meli  [00:04:08]:

Yeah. I've, from other friends, from South Jewish friends from South Africa have heard that orthodoxy is the thing. Like, you don't have conservative and reform and reconstructionist and and renewal. Is is that your sense as well? Is that was that true when you were a child?

David [00:04:26]:

There is a reform movement, but it's it's smaller. And most people who belong to orthodox synagogues in South Africa and certain other countries are there more for social reasons rather than ideological or religious religious reasons, unlike in America where a lot of people who go to orthodox synagogues are observant Jews. But even in America, there are people who go to orthodox synagogues who are not strictly observant.

Meli  [00:04:53]:

Right. This gets really complicated really fast, you know, the whole question of, well, what do you mean when you say you're observant? And there are gradations. We all, observe some certain things and and not other things. And on that note, the thing that we wanted to talk about that we want to talk about today is the aspect of your work where your Jewish identity shows up so strongly is in your coaching. I'd actually like to begin with just, the basics about coaching, for those in the audience who are not so familiar with coaching. What is the broad theory of coaching? How how does this work at at a very basic level?

David [00:05:38]:

It's a little bit like my answer about orthodoxy. Coaching is really a world. But I would say the three things that really attracted me to coaching is that it's forward looking and seeing what do I want to achieve and how am I going to get there. It's a strength-based model, which means rather than looking at what in what ways I feel broken, it looks at how I feel full and uses those skills in order to, get myself to the next step in my life. And it's problem solving. It's problem solving in the sense of, let's have an issue. Let's see how we can deal with it. The example I always give is in classic therapy, if you always get into a fight with your parents just before Shabbat, in traditional therapy, may we may look at your relationship with the parents and how you deal with anger.

David [00:06:34]:

In coaching, we may one of the things we may try to do is find if you can be elsewhere on the Friday afternoon before Shabbat and maybe lower the tension. Maybe we'll find that Shabbat isn't a good place to interact with your parents for all different reasons, and maybe it's better that you see them during the week and not on Shabbat. What I will say is that there's sometimes tension between coaches and psychologists. Psychologists will sometimes feel that coaches just are not serious and aren't prepared to go through the rigorous training that therapists have, and coaches will think that therapists just drag things out when there could be quicker solutions. I actually believe in both of them very, very strongly. I think that can be used together, and I think different people need different needs at different times. Some as well need some coaching just to get oneself moving, and some as well really does have to go and do that deep work. So I am very, very much in favor of both.

Meli  [00:07:36]:

Part of your answer sounds very pragmatic to me. It's like, okay. We have a problem. How are we going to solve this problem for this perhaps repeated situation, or perhaps it's a one off situation? Do do you see it that way, or do you see that part of the coaching dialogue is digging into better understanding the the why of of a situation.

David [00:08:06]:

No. I agree with you. I think it's pragmatic. I think that for coaches, very often, the why is less, is less important if one is dealing with somebody's anger in coaching when one may spend more time looking at what are the situations that make a person angry and how can I, first of all, maybe avoid those situations where possible? And secondly, what are tools? Breathing, creating an anchor, which is some type of a touch, trying to find ways to deal with one's anger in this situation rather than dealing with, you know, the deep roots of that anger. But as I said, that doesn't mean that under other circumstances, going to the deep roots would feel very good. The whole question from a Jewish viewpoint, you know, what is the Jewish way to do therapy, is one that much ink has been spilled on and trying to understand therapy or coaching through Jewish eyes. Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, who was the very famous rabbi, who's chief rabbi of England, he certainly saw coaching as fitting in better with the ideals of Judaism the way he saw it. But as I said, there's a marketplace out there.

David [00:09:20]:

But he saw the forward looking and the pragmatism fitting in much, much more with Jewish attitudes to life rather than the deep the deep searching, but different strokes for different folks.

Meli  [00:09:31]:

I'm certainly familiar with Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, and I was not at all aware that he had that view of coaching. It's it is a little surprising given the many, many pages and hours of discourse over Talmud and and Torah and various theories and the history of of the texts and and all of that. It's an interesting, surprising statement that he had, but maybe he was partitioning scriptural study from living today and dealing with a contemporary problem. I'm not so sure that sounds that sounds, a bit questionable there.

David [00:10:14]:

Well, it look. I'll say 2 things. First of all, I've given a very simple on one foot definition of coaching. Coaching has its trends, its textures, its different movements, its different understandings. So much in chasm can be spilled on coaching issues. The other thing I just happened to be speaking to somebody about this before we met, the Talmud, as you've alluded to, is filled with very, very long conversations in which one goes into great depths about seemingly abstruse issues, discussing all different ramifications one can possibly have. When one actually goes to a rabbinic court, it says that Jerusalem was destroyed because they decided everything according to law. And in fact, there is a very, very strong emphasis in reality, and I'm talking premodernity, that rabbis in a law court, when they are judging a case, should always go for peace rather than absolute truth or absolute justice.

David [00:11:18]:

I just said to this person, wouldn't it be interesting if people said to myself, I'll see you in court, and then we'll be friends again? That if we if we thought that that was the purpose of law, that theoretically, it doesn't always happen in practice, of course, but that is what a Jewish court is about. It's about pragmatism. It's about compromise. It's about emphasizing that the aim at the end is not only for each person to get what is due for them, but for them to be friends in the end. And in terms of this, I mean, I can't speak in his name, but the way I look at it, coaching fits in very, very well with this type of understanding and approach to life.

Meli  [00:11:57]:

Well, those are certainly nice words, David, and and it would be great to think that law courts were actually used with that frame of mind. I would say at this point on various social points that is aspirational and absolutely not the reality today. But isn't that true for so many things in our societies? Lots of things are aspirational, and we aren't there yet.

David [00:12:25]:

I'm not quite sure I would be as harsh as that.

Meli  [00:12:28]:

Okay.

David [00:12:29]:

In many secular I'm talking about America now. In outside of the Jewish world, there's an emphasis of restorative justice where rather than going to a court, a victim will meet with meet with the person who victimized them. It's a very hard thing to do and try to come to some type of understanding. It's a long time ago, but if one thinks of the Peace and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, That's the same thing. If you think of the emphasis on mediation that we have in many, many societies today, that also is an attempt to say, hey. Wait a minute. I can spend 1,000 of dollars in trying to get in in court, but maybe we can do things a little bit more more informally. We can all find some horrible law case to show how terrible it is.

David [00:13:15]:

But I really think that there are many, many trends in society to try and say, hey. Wait a minute. There are better ways than becoming so litigious.

Meli  [00:13:24]:

Yes. Point well taken. Yes. Absolutely. All of all of those examples are good examples for a less or non litigious approach that is not just less expensive and less time consuming, but also more successful in the end. If what we want, and that certainly I what I want and I believe what you want, is a society that lives in peace, and we find nonviolent and communicative ways of sorting out our differences, and, you know, there are differences in relationships. Alright. Let lest we get deeper into that, let's look at how you actually approach coaching.

Meli  [00:14:08]:

How would you characterize your coaching style and tone?

David [00:14:14]:

Everything about my coaching sort of just happened to me. None of it is none of it is through my my planning and beforehand. I worked and am still associated with an institute called the Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies in Jerusalem. When I was there full time, I was very lucky that many, many students would come and speak to me about issues they had in their lives. And at some point, I realized I wanted to be a little bit more effective in what I was doing with them. I wasn't about to become a therapist. It isn't something that I had planned on doing, but I went and did a coaching course, and I used the different coaching methods in my informal conversations with people as well as opening up a small practice in which I saw people no different from anywhere else. And at this point, coaching was certainly a, technology, if you will.

David [00:15:07]:

Because the technology the same way as, you know, a car can take you anywhere. You decide where to go, and that will decide, you know, whether you're doing a good thing or a bad thing. If I go and help a neighbor using my car, that's different from robbing a bank using my car. But the car is the same technology, same thing with coaching for me. And then one day, a student said to me, would you like to read this book that has really had an effect on me? So I started reading the book. I found it very interesting. I then gave the book back to them. We started talking about it, and we honed in on a chapter.

David [00:15:45]:

Eventually, we honed in on a paragraph, and we had a very, very interesting discussion about this paragraph. And before I knew it, without realizing it, we were doing what is called chevruta, a classical Jewish way. It was not really that classic. People think it is, but it's a few 100 years old. A chevruta, which is when 2 people sit with a text between them and study the text together loudly, really, really, really, sometimes arguing, sometimes working collaboratively to try and understand the text. Before I knew it, we were doing this paragraph collaborative. This was not a Jewish text, by the way. This was a novel.

David [00:16:27]:

Not a novel. It was a memoir. It was really magical. Slowly, as we learned the text more and saw the depth in this little text, the person went deeper into themselves, found sell things about themselves or ideas or ways of looking at the world that they'd never thought of before. I don't think this is just a trick. I think that if we love a piece of literature or a piece of writing, we don't know ourselves what makes us so close to it. But through unpacking it, we also unpack ourselves. And then a penny dropped, and I said, hey.

David [00:17:06]:

I can do it with other people. I don't exclusively do this, but I do coaching in which people will bring a Jewish text or a general text, something that is readable. It could be a song. One person even brought me a sports column once because that's the way that they thought. We will read it together thoughtfully, and that'll help us together to get the person to the next stage in their journey. So it's not actually Jewish knowledge I'm using. It's not actually Jewish insights, but a Jewish methodology. Convertic could be used for anything.

David [00:17:45]:

You could do it theoretically for math or science or whatever you wanted to do, but generally speaking, it is used in a Jewish context for studying holy texts.

Meli  [00:17:57]:

Okay. So you then, you know, really got into talking about your process, which I'd like to talk a little more about to better understand how this works. You mostly have have a conversation about a piece of text, but not exclusively. Is is that correct?

David [00:18:17]:

No. We don't only discuss the text. A person who comes to me is required to write a tight and tough statement about what they want to do in very positive terms. I would like to improve my relationship with my children and be able to speak to them about matters that concern them. Let's say that was the aim. Then I will say to them, could you bring me a text which, in your mind, really expresses the beautiful bond that there can be between the parent and the child? So they'll either I can help them sometimes, but they'll bring something to me maybe that brings something or perhaps it's negative. I'm just thinking it's Cat in the Cradle. This is not a real session.

David [00:19:06]:

I made this up on the spot. You know that song Cat in the Cradle about the father? So for something like that, they might bring it and they might and I'd be a little upset because I want you to bring something positive, but that's what they bring. We discuss it. We'd see what works for them. At every point, I would be trying to reframe the negative as positive. He didn't take care of his children, but what you would want is to take care of your children. He didn't listen. What you need to do is listen.

David [00:19:36]:

And as I said, I just invented this totally on the spot, but I can tell you what I would do with that song if somebody brought it. They would then go home and rewrite the song in the positive way about a father and a son who had a wonderful relationship and how they how they got there. And then that text would be used as the basis for every session. Let's go through what you came up with. Let's spend a session on each one of those qualities. If you really wanna hear all the tricks, maybe that song would become an anchor, become something when things are going in a difficult way with the children. Or when they need a bit of help, I say, go look for your song that you wrote based upon a popular song. Go back and read it and remind yourself of how competent and how good you are and how many skills that you have at your disposal So it really becomes part of their life.

Meli  [00:20:31]:

So the text that you have someone bring is preferably a Jewish text, but really could be any kind of text?

David [00:20:43]:

No. It doesn't have to be a Jewish text at all. Look. I work mostly with Jewish people, but there's no reason that I have to work with Jewish people. If I work with somebody who wasn't Jewish, they could bring somebody not Jewish. In honesty, if somebody brings a Jewish text, it's a lot of fun because it's a tradition that I know very well, obviously, and I have insights into it. But if you ask me on a personal selfish level but, of course, coaching is not about me. It's about the client.

David [00:21:08]:

I love it when people bring in texts from the outside, the amount that I've learned, the amount of insights I've gotten. I've got files packed and packed with the most fascinating things that people have brought me. You know, popular songs that I would never have have heard, and my clients have really expanded my whole view of the world. Once a client brought in something a bit like a rap song that was a little bit vulgar, and they were testing me. They were trying to see what would I expect pushing the boundaries. It was somebody younger. And I worked with them. If that's what you want to bring, bring it.

David [00:21:42]:

There's some reason for you to bring it, and, you know, it doesn't mean it was easy for me, but that's my job.

Meli  [00:21:50]:

Yeah. So it sounds like sometimes you're surprised by what people bring in and a little challenged by what they bring in.

David [00:21:57]:

Well, I hope every coach and every therapist is surprised and challenged by their clients. It would be a very boring and unproductive if everybody could take everything in their stride.

Meli  [00:22:09]:

Did you ever have maybe this rap song was one of these. Did you ever have someone bring in something that you felt was seriously inappropriate?

David [00:22:19]:

Well, this person was pushing my baton on purpose. Nobody's brought anything in. The way that I work is people meet with me initially for a, consultation that isn't a session. They see who I am. I see who they are. Once somebody came in and clearly had issues with me that they had just booked a session to work on their issues. And I said, look. Let's stop the session.

David [00:22:46]:

Let's discuss this as 2 human beings. You you booked a session because you have issues with me. In an ideal world, maybe one would never ever meet people with people that one knows already. But it's very hard in this type of coaching, and Jerusalem is a small little village. Even though it's a big city, it's very hard to do. Once a client came to me, and at the end of the session, I will eventually say, what have you gained from the session? And I try and find as many as examples as I can. And she said, well, I haven't gained anything. So I wouldn't call that inappropriate, but I would say those were 2 people who I was the wrong coach for their needs and, you know, 2 out of however many isn't too bad.

Meli  [00:23:32]:

Right. And it is therapy, coaching, teaching, any kind of employment. It is all about fit, and not every coach is right for every client. So, you know, that sounds to me like a like a pretty good batting average. How would you describe your client profile?

David [00:23:51]:

Most of my clients care about being Jewish and value coming to somebody who's a rabbi. I didn't mention that I'm a rabbi. Even if they bring a text from the outside world, they probably value the rabbinic helps, and some of these people are coming to deal with theological religious issues. But some of it is just who I know. It's like, I this is who I know. I live in Jerusalem. I work in Jewish organizations abroad and in, Israel. That's who I will know.

David [00:24:23]:

And I have worked with non Jewish clients, but I would love to work with more non Jewish people. I would love to see how the the how this works. I've seen it can work. I don't see this way of working that is particular to Jewish people. But I do sort of like the idea that maybe even if you're not part of this tradition, one could be gaining from a methodology rather than an insight or a a content. This is utilizing a Jewish methodology, a study methodology that is particular to the Jewish way of studying texts and using it on other texts and in other contexts.

Meli  [00:25:05]:

Yeah. That's interesting. I didn't know you you were interested in that. So let's touch on that a little more. What is your argument to say a Christian or a Muslim person in the audience? Why should they come work with you as a coach?

David [00:25:22]:

So first of all, I wouldn't only say Christian or Muslim. I would say somebody who defines us as a secular or another faith community. I know that your audience tends to be from the monotheistic religions. I'm gonna go to another tradition now, which is 12 steps in AA, and I think they speak about attraction rather than promotion. I would say, does this pique your interest? Do you love reading? Do you love going in-depth? Do you wanna achieve things in your life? Do you wanna really empower yourselves and do do better in life? Does this attract you? Only if it attracts you will you be interested. I'm not conversing, not within or not without the Jewish tradition, but I do believe in giving your best foot forward, and let's see who will be attracted to you. So sometimes people come out of curiosity, they just say, oh my goodness. I would just love to study text this way.

David [00:26:14]:

Look. I studied English literature. I love English literature. There is something about studying every single word through a microscope, fine tooth comb where you look at every single word. It's like studying a poem and deciding every single word what is it to do and then bringing it back to yourself. That is just exciting. The things that people have come up with, the number of times that people say like, oh my goodness. I didn't realize that about myself.

David [00:26:42]:

Or oops. I didn't realize that about myself when it's sometimes a bit of a harder realization. I've spoken a long time, so I would just say, come. It's fun.

Meli  [00:26:53]:

Okay. We'll put a link for them to, to book a trial session in the show notes. And and I encourage people who are curious to get in touch. Yeah. Why not?

David [00:27:04]:

People should know that I'm very, very happy, not only the initial session, but to give a trial session for free. I think both people gain. They can gain from the session. They might decide to use me afterwards as a coach. But for me, it's a chance to really expand my horizons as well. So, you know, people should feel free free to be in touch if they want to.

Meli  [00:27:27]:

Right. And a small sidebar to that, have you done interreligious text study?

David [00:27:34]:

I've done interreligious text study in my life in different situations. I've not done it through the coaching. I've been to sessions where I've had the pleasure of looking at the same text with other people from other faith traditions, not only monotheistic faith traditions, by the way, but also with Hindus and other people from eastern religions, and that's been very fascinating for me.

Meli  [00:27:57]:

It is. I've done some study of the Psalms with Christians, and I find that to be a really rich way to look at that body of text.

David [00:28:09]:

There's something else also, though. Mhmm. I mean, interreligious dialogue is great and wonderful and meaningful and everything like that. Often, I like just to go and hear a Christian or a Muslim teach their text in their way. And I'm sitting in the audience, and I'm able to draw the different conclusions and say, oh, isn't it similar? So for example, the song of songs, which the rabbis reread, which is a very erotic book in the Tanakh, in the Jewish bible. The rabbi is read as being a love story between God and the Jewish people, and Christians read as being a love story about Jesus and the world. And sometimes it's fun to be all together and discovering, oh, your tradition does that, so does mine. But sometimes I just enjoy listening to the Christian person speak about it from their viewpoint to witness from their viewpoint, and then I'm able to take myself what is good for me from that.

Meli  [00:29:10]:

Sure. Those are 2 wonderful ways of understanding our own and someone else's scripture at a deeper level from our perspective, from their perspective. Absolutely. And those are 2 among among other ways of approaching it, and and your coaching is a way of doing that. Although tech study is not the point, right, of your coaching. It is a mechanism.

David [00:29:36]:

Mhmm.

Meli  [00:29:37]:

Coaching is a mechanism. Using text is a mechanism. One of the points about coaching that I understand to be primary and that frankly I have struggled with both as a coach. I did go through training, and I have worked as a coach, and I have received coaching. So that's my, small disclaimer on my comment. The theory is that the client already has the answers, and the coach is to draw them out. Do you share that? Do you what what are your feelings about that as as an approach?

David [00:30:11]:

Yeah. And I'm interested what your issues are with it. But, yes, I do believe that. That, to my mind, is a central part of the coaching. And the text is just to help draw it out, because they chose the text. Now let's see what is in it. But, yes, I do share that coaching idea that not everybody, but the clients I work with are whole, full human beings and already have the skills within them to deal with whatever they want to deal with. I'm interested what your issues are.

Meli  [00:30:41]:

I feel like to a certain extent that's true. You know, certainly as adults, we've lived a full life. We've had all kinds of experiences. I certainly know myself better than any coach or therapist I'm likely to go talk with. But the struggle I have with that is why should I pay someone to tell me what is already inside of me?

David [00:31:07]:

First of all, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing that, and I hear it. 1 year, I told my students, and I have repeated it since then. If I ask a question and there's an answer that is absolutely obvious to you, say it anyway. You may think it's obvious, but it may not be obvious to everybody else. I think that sometimes it's inside ourselves, the answer, but maybe somebody else can draw it out. We get so many messages from our society about not being good enough. If only you do this, you'll go on this diet, or you'll take this course or whatever the case, and then you'll be okay.

David [00:31:46]:

Someone just need somebody to draw it out from us. If I ask clients, as I do, to make a list of their good qualities, it's often very hard for them. If I ask them to make a list of their poor qualities, oh, wow. Will you get a good list and with ease? So as soon as I think it's just a question of drawing it out, I'm not a 1000% sure, but I'm pretty sure that the word educate means to draw out. Education is not about passing on blobs of facts, certainly not nowadays. It's much, much more to draw out the skills that people already have and to strengthen them and to make them central and to use them.

Meli  [00:32:31]:

Okay. To be researched. That's going on my list of words to explore. The hitch I have with your shift to educate is that I see education and coaching as wildly different things. If I went to a course and they said, oh, well, you know, you already know all of this, I would walk out and demand my money back. You know, I'm taking Hebrew right now, and I'm about to start a course to prepare for the high holy days. I am not paying this teacher to draw out knowledge. I'm paying them to teach me, to put information into my head, and to make sense of something, you know, in the case of the high holidays literature and experiences, to prepare myself and to better understand what are we doing there, and how do I derive greater meaning out of those many hours in synagogue.

Meli  [00:33:30]:

And, anyway, we have fairly strayed, but interesting to talk about.

David [00:33:35]:

Happy to respond to that.

Meli  [00:33:36]:

Yeah. Sure.

David [00:33:37]:

And my response to that would be, first of all, obviously, you're right. And, yes, you do have this postmodern summer's extreme idea that, you know, nobody has any hierarchy, the teacher is no greater than the student, and everybody's all on the same plane. That's one extreme. But I think it's true. Yes. The teacher is there to teach you stuff you didn't know, but some of the stuff you can read in a book as well. A lot of the stuff you could just look online. There's something about the parent the the the parent, but that again, a slip that's of value.

David [00:34:09]:

The teacher student relationship, that's very important. If you think of math I'm not very good at math. I don't know how many times with helping a kid or something. I've looked at it online, and I've read about it. And then I just speak to somebody, and just when they speak to me, suddenly I understand it even though they said the same thing online. It's just something about the way they said it. The understanding was already in me. I had the ability to do it.

David [00:34:36]:

I just needed somebody to help draw it out. The same thing with your high holy days. I can give you all the information in the world. You're the one who has got the skills to make it meaningful for you. You're the one who's gonna say, like, that explanation just doesn't work for me at all. I understand it works for other people and is gonna take another explanation and adapt it a little bit and then be able to use it to share with other people. So I'd say that coaching is really about helping you to draw out your your ability to interpret and to take things and to use them in ways that are meaningful for

Meli  [00:35:14]:

you. Yeah. Okay. There's a whole conversation that you and I will need to pick up on another day in terms of education and teaching and the high holidays and all of that. We will have to set that aside for now because the time is running on, and I want to talk a little more about really what you're seeing in your coaching. I'm wondering if you have seen or are seeing trends in the types of text that people bring or the themes. Does it change seasonally or are there through lines for the age of the client or the issue? Are are there any threads that run through for you?

David [00:36:03]:

It would be interesting if I was living in a normal world to answer these questions. But almost all Israelis, Jewish and Arab, as well as most Jews in the world, had their lives upended in some way in October 7th with the Hamas invasion in Israel. Because I work mostly with Jewish people, even if what they're dealing with has nothing to do with what happened in October 7th, it's there. And that is what's affecting the text that people bring. There's a certain darkness, a disappointment, a sadness. I'm keeping this as unpolitical as possible, just talking about how people are feeling. So I'd say it's actually a tough time to be a coach because coaching, as we've said, and as you some have some issues with, is really based upon seeing the person as whole and good. It's hard sometimes when people feel the world is a difficult place to really tap into their own positivity, even if it's there.

David [00:37:11]:

Sometimes when the whole world or their whole world, I should say, seems to be in a dark place, they have difficulty tapping into their own positivity and feeling of wholeness.

Meli  [00:37:24]:

Yeah. Amen to that. Yeah. That can be a challenge. Lots of darkness in the world these days in many countries. So yeah. Well, David, I'm afraid we do need to leave it there for today. This has been a stimulating and lively conversation.

Meli  [00:37:41]:

I so appreciate you coming on my Living Our Believes podcast, and I do hope we take up some of these topics again another day.

David [00:37:51]:

Thank you, Meli. It was quite the honor to be on the show. Thank you very, very much.

Meli  [00:38:00]:

Thank you for listening. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. If you'd like to keep learning together and keep up to date on the project, sign up for the newsletter at www.talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show note. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.