Doing Interfaith Work Despite Catholic Exclusivism – Kyle Desrosiers

Episode 71.
Kyle is a Master of Theological Studies student at The Gloria L. and Charles I. Clough School of Theology and Ministry of Boston College. He also works at the Betty Ann Greenbaum Miller Center for Interreligious Learning and Leadership at Hebrew College. Originally from Texas, Kyle has long been involved with interfaith engagement. He has also worked as a freelance journalist, in college campus ministry, and in higher education.

In this conversation we talk about the joys and challenges of his interfaith work, which began in high school, as well as his experience in Israel while on a Fulbright scholarship. Kyle’s dedication and passion for his Catholic faith and engaging with people of other faiths comes through loud and clear. Interestingly, he has been compelled to do interfaith work despite the Catholic Church's exclusivist view, whereby they see themselves has holding the one true faith.

Highlights:
·       Studies, interfaith work, faith, and Israel.

·       Fulbright program in Israel supported conflict resolution degree.

·       Changed worldview after studying in Israel.

·       Vatican's theological papers and his beliefs as a Roman Catholic 

·       Navigating challenges, embracing moments, fostering understanding.

·       Political diversity is important for interreligious work.

References:
·       Vatican Encyclical Nostra aetate, Pope Paul VI (1965) 

·       “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”  John 14:6 New International Version (NIV)

Social Media links for Kyle: 
Religion News Service – Kyle Desrosiers
LinkedIn – Kyle Desrosiers
Interfaith America – Pride in Jerusalem: In Celebration of LGBTQ People of Faith
Interfaith America – Building Community in Quarantine
Stained Glass Travel – Hospitality Transcending Language and Faith

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project
LinkedIn – Meli Solomon
Facebook – Meli Solomon


Transcript on Buzzsprout


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Transcript

Kyle Derosiers transcript 

Juggling Catholic Faith and Interfaith Work

Méli [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs. A home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. Before I announce today's guest, I have a brief note about the podcast schedule.

For the first time since launching Living Our Beliefs two and a half years ago, I am taking a short break. But fear not. I will post earlier episodes through July and be back with new content in August. Thanks as ever for your interest and support. And now about today's episode. This is episode number 71 and my guest today is Kyle Derosiers. Kyle is a Master of Theological Studies student at the Boston College School of Theology and Ministry. He also works at the Betty N. Greenbaum Miller Center for Interreligious Learning and Leadership at Hebrew College. Originally from Texas, Kyle has long been involved with interfaith engagement. He has also worked as a freelance journalist in college campus ministry and in higher education. In this conversation, we talk about the joys and challenges of his interfaith work, which began in high school, as well as his experience in Israel while on a Fulbright scholarship. Kyle's dedication and passion for his Catholic faith and engaging with people of other faiths comes through loud and clear. Hello, Kyle. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. So lovely to have you on today.

Kyle [00:02:17]:

Hi. Thank you for having me. It's really a pleasure.

Méli [00:02:20]:

I'd like to begin with my usual first question. What is your religious and cultural identity?

Kyle [00:02:27]:

I am a Roman Catholic, born and raised in Texas, and now I'm living in Massachusetts.

Méli [00:02:33]:

Were you raised as a Roman Catholic?

Kyle [00:02:36]:

I wasn't really raised as a Roman Catholic. I was baptized. I grew up attending a Methodist church, but I didn't really choose to to take the Catholic faith as a serious part of my life until I was in college, and I began to really engage in learning and in Catholic community.

Méli [00:02:59]:

Yeah. Interesting. So raised Methodist, but you shifted to Roman Catholicism in college. You went to Baylor. Right?

Kyle [00:03:08]:

I did. Yeah. In Waco, Texas.

Méli [00:03:10]:

What sort of college or university is that?

Kyle [00:03:14]:

Baylor is actually affiliated with the Texas Baptist Church, not Southern Baptist. Common misconception.

Méli [00:03:21]:

Since college or beginning in college, really, you've been very involved with interfaith work. Correct?

Kyle [00:03:28]:

Oh, yeah. Maybe even since before. I recall being in high school and thinking about things that nobody else was thinking about and being curious about things that I felt like most of my peers weren't.

Méli [00:03:40]:

Interesting. Like what? What were you thinking about in in high school?

Kyle [00:03:44]:

Well, religion for 1. A lot. Thinking about it a lot.

Méli [00:03:49]:

And your peers, what was the religious environment kind of more generally in in your upbringing?

Kyle [00:03:56]:

It was quite diverse. Really, where I grew up in Arlington, Texas, it was just sprawling suburbs, part of the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex. The majority of people would be protestant, but a lot of Catholics as well. And in recent decades, a lot of Muslims and Hindus, due to immigration, so it's become a very religiously and culturally diverse place. And I went to a high school with about 4,000 people, and I think I tried to collect all the honor cords. You know, how when you when you walk the stage, you get all the honor cords for each club, little tassels? And I tried to collect as many as I could, and so I even got the Muslim student association one because I had friends who were in the club.

Méli [00:04:40]:

That is too funny. So so you respond well to gold stars and the little blacks and yeah. Okay. Good good to know. Good to know. Yeah. And what a huge high school. 4,000 students?

Kyle [00:04:55]:

Yeah. It really prepared me for the world, I felt like. When I moved to Waco for for college, it was a little bit different because it was much more homogeneous than I was used to and certainly much more religious.

Méli [00:05:09]:

In what way? What's what's the religion there?

Kyle [00:05:13]:

Well, most people are evangelical or nondenominational Christian. So, again, there's a lot of Catholics, but, you know, chapel was was required. Religion classes were required. Though I'm not sure I agree that chapel should be required, I came to really appreciate the religion classes as a requirement because they were truly fascinating and taught in a manner that was pluralistic and egalitarian, and it's not what I expected, quite frankly. I I had a preconceived notion that based on some of the other things I had understood about the culture that I was afraid that the religion courses might be only one perspective. And when I actually took them, putting them off till my last semester of senior year, I realized that that wasn't the case. Some of the most fantastic professors I had who, you know, were also very faithful people, taught religion and bible and church history in a way that just brought it to life and and didn't hamper open and honest discourse and inquiry.

Méli [00:06:18]:

That's really good to hear. But did you only learn about Christianity in those classes? Did they touch on any other religions?

Kyle [00:06:26]:

Well, they offered classes in other religions, but they only required the classes about Christianity.

Méli [00:06:33]:

Okay. So I'm thinking about your engagement, your early engagement with interfaith work. Really, your interest started in high school, and then at Baylor you took these classes, but they were really it's interesting you put them off to your last semester, and they were really about Christianity. So were you doing interfaith work also at Baylor?

Kyle [00:06:57]:

Yeah. I got involved in what used to be called the Interfaith Youth Corps and is now Interfaith America. So we got to meet a lot of really interesting people. Selena Quintanilla, if you know her, she was a singer who was actually assassinated when she was about 23. She was from from Texas, and her sister came and spoke to us. So I remember that that was very interesting. Through the interreligious stuff, got to meet a lot of interesting people. And I found a community at at a pretty you know, Baylor was pretty homogeneous, but our little interreligious community was really small but mighty.

Méli [00:07:33]:

The interfaith youth corps was founded by Iboo Patel. Yes. Did you meet him?

Kyle [00:07:39]:

I have. He came to Baylor once, and I've actually gotten to meet him through some of the work at Hebrew College as well. And Great. So that's been really fun.

Méli [00:07:48]:

He's a good guy, and he really has deep experience and passion around that area, especially with colleges. Yeah. Interesting. So the curiosity was peaked in high school. It went on through college at Baylor working in this small but mighty interfaith group. Then at at some point, you got a Fulbright. Was that after college?

Kyle [00:08:14]:

Yeah. It was 2020, so the COVID year. Things were in limbo for for some time before I finally got to go. In October of 2020, that's when I went to Israel, and I had to spend 2 weeks in quarantine. One of the first words in Hebrew that I learned is bidud, which is like the the quarantine. That was my first experience overseas for my Fulbright.

Méli [00:08:40]:

Wow. As I understand, when you apply for a Fulbright, you need to define some kind of study area, a project that you'll do. Is that is that correct?

Kyle [00:08:50]:

That's right.

Méli [00:08:51]:

What did you say your project or your study area would be?

Kyle [00:08:55]:

So for me, it's a little bit different than most Fulbright programs. But for me, I actually got support for an NA degree in conflict resolution and mediation. So there are some people who do research projects, but this was specifically funding and support to do this in a degree. The Fulbright paid for and kind of facilitated this year of NA study. And the program I was finished with it in a year, but I ended up staying 2 years. So I got to have some experience beyond just the Fulbright period. So really got to feel like I could explore the country, really dig deep, get to know a lot of people.

Méli [00:09:37]:

So 2 years in Israel, one of which was an MA facilitated by the Fulbright. How was that? Why did you wanna be in Israel? What was that all about for you?

Kyle [00:09:49]:

Yeah. So I was really interested in in religion and how how religion relates to our ideas about how we live in a pluralistic society with people who have different backgrounds and perspectives. At Baylor, when I was involved with the interreligious group, I had done some advocacy work, some editorial writing, some, you know, listening sessions, dialogue work that was both about accommodations for people from non Christian religions, dietary, living arrangements, etcetera, and also LGBTQ inclusion at Baylor and how that related to professed religious values. And so I was interested in that intersection. I had always been very interested in Israel, especially in Tel Aviv, just as an exciting place with arts and culture, a place that was was was quite progressive and cosmopolitan. But I was also very interested in, you know, all the religious history and the Abrahamic faith. So it seems like a a fantastic place to go and to live and to sort of dig deep and and to try to learn as much as I could. Of course, I didn't know that COVID was going to be happening and that the first 6 months I was there, it would be very difficult to move around, that it would be very difficult to see much of anything.

Kyle [00:11:13]:

But it was interesting and unique, and I got to be inside of the old city of Jerusalem and the old city of Nazareth with nobody there. You know, I got to be in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher inside of the tomb with nobody there. At that time, it was just completely different from how it's been, how how how many people are normally there. It was very interesting What

Méli [00:11:45]:

I will say about my

Kyle [00:11:46]:

What I will say about my experience in Jerusalem and in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher as a Roman Catholic is that it's a bit difficult to truly conceptualize and to truly resonate within my soul that this is the spot that the tradition tells us that Jesus Christ, where where he was killed, where he was buried, and where he rose from the dead, all contained under the roof of this building. A massive building. And it's not really the size of building as much as it is just all that's been built up around it. That makes it a bit harder to really identify with, especially because of how many millions of people are there and kind of the chaotic cacophonous environment that it creates. Now it's beautiful. It's special to be there. I think I had more profound spiritual and sacred experiences at other religious sites such as a Benedictine monastery that I went to, which is near Emmaus. But in this site, in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, you know, the room where it happened, I struggled more to really identify in the same type of of meaningful way, which which was discouraging.

Méli [00:13:02]:

Yeah. I can imagine that. What comes up for me, Kyle, is really a question of expectations.

Kyle [00:13:09]:

Mhmm.

Méli [00:13:10]:

That you are of x religious group, and you go to some important historical site, and the expectation is that you'll have some big meaningful experience. And it is kinda disappointing when that that doesn't happen.

Kyle [00:13:26]:

Right. And not only that, but, of course, as you probably know, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is also a bit of a tragic spot when it comes to our ecumenical relations. There's 12 or 14 different churches, Roman Catholic, and the other ones are all eastern churches that have part of the custody of the church, and they're kind of constantly intention. There's been a fight for the use of this space. So it's also a bit tragic in in that way too that this is sort of the state of this sacred space.

Méli [00:14:01]:

Yeah. Kind of knocks the wind out of the idea that that the space and the community will be calm and holy and enlightening. It's also a reminder that communities are made of people, and people have disagreements, and when you have 3, 4, 5 groups all saying that spot x is holy to them. That's built in tension. You know, that's Jerusalem and Israel right there as well.

Kyle [00:14:35]:

That's right.

Méli [00:14:35]:

Just on a larger scale. I also hear you saying, Kyle, that there were spiritual experiences. There were religiously moving moments in in other places in these 2 years in Israel. So I'm interested to hear one of those stories.

Kyle [00:14:53]:

For 2 years 2 consecutive years, for Easter, I got to go to the Benedictine Monastery in Abu Ghosh. It's located in the hills outside of Jerusalem, and it's primarily French people, men and women religious who are Benedictines. They live a life according to a strict religious rule of prayer, of work, of service. When I join them for Easter, of course, it's a feast. It's a big celebration. And so there's lots of liturgical celebrations in the church involving people from the community, some of whom were Arabic speakers, some of whom were Hebrew speakers, some of whom were foreigners like myself, a large number of whom might be French, who are working for diplomacy. It was one of the first events too in 2021 that I got to go to when things were sort of opening up after what had been a very successful vaccination program in Israel. It was really special because I got to go with a group of friends, and we were from different religious backgrounds, and we all got to experience this.

Kyle [00:16:06]:

I just felt a real sense of joy. And I'm always in awe when I meet people who are men and women religious, who are involved in religious orders or congregations, and they dedicate themselves to lives of prayer and of service. And I'm always in awe because they seem to have such a sense of peace and presence that those of us who live in the secular world just don't. And they just seem to exude many times a sense of hospitality and kindness. That just really resonated with me, and I think of that as a really special place. You know, it's also a beautiful place, beautiful gardens. It's in this old stone compound. So I definitely have a fondness for it, you know, and it's been there for 100 and 100 of years.

Kyle [00:16:52]:

Very special to me even though it doesn't have the same religious canonical significance as some of the pilgrimage sites do.

Méli [00:17:01]:

I'm hearing how the combination of emerging from COVID, the friends who are from different religions, the feasts, the you know, Easter itself is is a major, very positive note in the Christian calendar. Yeah. Interesting. And you mentioned you also went to some some Jewish sites?

Kyle [00:17:24]:

Yeah. I had I had another really interesting experience, and it was about the same time. And it was on the the festival of Lag b’omer. I went to Mount Meron, which is in the north. I went with a friend of mine who is orthodox, who's from the United States. We traveled up to May 1. This was in April of 2021. You know, it's a really interesting space to be in as a foreigner.

Kyle [00:17:52]:

Of course, as a man, I have access to a space that really women don't, And that's just part of the the tensions of of religion and of belonging. And, you know, it's the same in in the Catholic church too that there's gonna be tensions of spaces where you belong and you don't belong in. But when I went there, I felt like Haredi Ultra Orthodox Jews are a community which I didn't know much about. It's very interesting because I got to go and visit this festival, you know, with thousands and thousands of people in Haredi community. There was music and dancing and wine and food and bonfires and people of all ages, men and boys and teenagers making music and song. At one point in the night, we got stuck in this very tight shuffle in this crowd. There were just so many people. There was just this crush of people.

Kyle [00:18:49]:

We really got stuck. I say that because, well, later in the evening, there ended up being a stampede and a bridge collapsed. Maybe you heard about it in the news. About 40 people died due to the stampede. We had been walking around and experiencing the music and had quite a bit of wine. All of a sudden, there was just this chaos. The Magin de Veda dome, the ambulances came. You know, I saw some kid with, long blonde peos just on a stretcher, you know, and and nobody knew what was happening.

Kyle [00:19:23]:

The cells don't work because there's so many people. Yeah. It was just chaos. What I found really sad about it was of course, it's just horrific that people got hurt and died, but it was also really sad because what was meant to be a joyful day. Felt like just as I was getting to experience for the first time what's it like in this community and really appreciating it. Then I also got to or had to experience this really sad, devastating thing that had happened that really resonated with me. It was a very interesting experience, and it certainly brought me and some of my friends together and certainly stuck with me as I had different experiences there. So it was it was very interesting spiritually, personally.

Kyle [00:20:03]:

It's one of these things in life where sometimes you happen to be in a specific place in a proximity to a tragic event that that makes the news, and and you were there. Not that you wanted to be, but it's just interesting.

Méli [00:20:16]:

Yeah. It just happened. And and I do remember that report, yeah, that that was just a tragedy. You mentioned the gendered element. That celebration with the Haredi was only men.

Kyle [00:20:30]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Méli [00:20:31]:

And only Haredi men, well, except for you and and maybe maybe a few others.

Kyle [00:20:37]:

Yeah.

Méli [00:20:38]:

How did that feel, and is that an environment you're in very often where you're celebrating, praying, whatever your service is with with only men?

Kyle [00:20:51]:

In the Catholic faith, no. Our worship is is not segregated. Of course, clergy are only men in the Catholic church, but our worship and nothing in sort of the social expectations is segregated. Of course, in some Catholic communities that are more conservative, traditional, even fundamentalist, there are more rigid expectations about gender and the roles of mothers and fathers, etcetera. But in terms of the faith itself, I think those things are more cultural. So it is different. And, of course, you know, I can't look for the splinter in someone else's eye unless I look for the log in my own, but there's always that tension. It does certainly make me sad to see that.

Kyle [00:21:41]:

That's part of it. I mean, I think it's part of approaching something that's different in its complexity. The maturity of accepting that things are different and challenging and not maybe always something you can agree with, but still realizing you've also been embraced as a guest in that environment. And there's also beauty there even though there's things that are divisive or exclusionary.

Méli [00:22:09]:

I'd like to hear a little more about something that fit that description, that was challenging, that was different and maybe uncomfortable or stressful or anxiety producing for you, that you were able to somehow connect with or embrace at some level?

Kyle [00:22:33]:

Yeah. I mean, I could tell you about that day, but there's something else that comes into my mind too on this topic.

Méli [00:22:39]:

Sure.

Kyle [00:22:40]:

So my friend, he grew up orthodox. He grew up Haredi in the US. We're very good friends. I I really enjoy getting to know him. We got to hang out a lot, got to talk a lot. I came to synagogue with him a lot of times. And this festival, you know, and we did Purim together. We were good friends, but, you know, he wouldn't go inside of a church even just as a tourist, much love for our worship experience in a church.

Kyle [00:23:07]:

For me, I guess, that that was offensive because in my mind, we're seeking the same god. Rightly or wrongly, my interpretation could be that he thinks that I worship a false god, something like that, or that he thinks my my religion is sinful or right. My brain could go in a lot of different directions, and he said none of that, of course. The more that I learn from him, from, you know, my studies, from learning Jewish history, I also learn for how many centuries people in the Jewish community were forced to convert to Christianity, to Islam, the Christian and Islamic empires and Hegemonies were in many ways, in many places, incredibly brutal towards Jews. You know, you don't have to go far back. There's still living people from his family, from many families who can tell you, you know, experiences about people that were, you know, affected with all kinds of violence by Christians as Jews. So going into a church, yes, there's halacha that's about that that's about you shouldn't do that. But also, like, it has a significance because people were forced to convert or be killed or forced to convert or live as second class citizens.

Kyle [00:24:22]:

Or even in the case of the holocaust, people who were Jewish and converted to Christianity, many of them still perished and were tortured. Actually, some of them who I met at the Benedictine monastery were were Jews who converted to Christianity, but fled Europe to escape the holocaust. And so when I considered that, yeah, it still hurts my feelings. But to go into a synagogue, it's not a threat to my faith. I believe we all have our own decisions, and it's it's not about me. You know? It's about him. And it's not even just about him, but it's about a lot of other values that are are part of what makes him him. I have my sacred values, and and everyone else also has their sacred values. If someone's sacred values don't get in the way of mine, then I really shouldn't be in a position to judge them.

Méli [00:25:09]:

Yeah. Quite. Did you speak with him about this, or are these ideas just what you're imagining his reasoning is?

Kyle [00:25:18]:

Yeah. I mean, we certainly talked about the history. We certainly talked about the context, especially that we were both studying conflict resolution. The context of Jewish history is a big part of the context of the state of Israel. Certainly thinking about both the personal and collective experiences of these things, he didn't quite say all these things that went through my mind. We never completely broached that topic, and it it wasn't something that was a a big wedge. But it was for me as someone who's worked in interreligious spaces and in campus ministry, it was for me just a case study, something to think about. But it was just very interesting because, you know, at one point, he offered to put the filling on me.

Kyle [00:26:02]:

You know, he had no problem with that, but he did have a problem with coming into a church. It's just interesting, you know, the kinds of things that we may or or or may not hold very closely.

Méli [00:26:14]:

Quite right. Everybody has a line of what they're willing to do and what they're not willing to do. In terms of this situation of your friend not willing to go into a church, it sounds like you had kind of half a conversation about really why he was not willing to do that.

Kyle [00:26:32]:

Yeah.

Méli [00:26:33]:

And so interesting and quite relevant that this was happening within the process of doing this masters of conflict resolution and mediation. Oh, yeah. That's a bit ironic, I have to say.

Kyle [00:26:47]:

I used to have a much more rigid mind, not just politically, but just about everything. How I engage with people interpersonally, how I might have been quick to pinpoint blame to to take the easy easy way out and say that I knew exactly what factors are responsible for people's behavior and why they're wrong and how there's no other way to see it. And quite frankly, studying this in Israel of all places push me out of my narrow little box and push me to say, you know, not only about this context or this political situation and not only about politics in general, but just about how we engage with people, how we try to understand why people do things we disagree with, why people do things that are different from how we would do things. Even if someone makes a mistake that there's oftentimes a reason, that there's oftentimes a context, and that people are often responding to the information that they have available when they're making poor decisions or when they're making decisions that I just don't agree with. And, also, I'm probably making decisions that people don't agree with. And so when I think of that, I think why? What are the ten reasons why something might be happening? Or what are the different factors culturally, you know, in somebody's background or, like, collectively that that contribute. It makes things a lot harder when you see the world that way, but I'm really glad for it. And I'm really glad for that opportunity to study in that discipline, in that place.

Kyle [00:28:24]:

I'm kind of burnt out and maybe need a little break before I do anything in diplomacy or foreign service or whatever it is that might be in the future, but I definitely had values that mean a lot to me. And I I take those values into the work of religious pluralism and interreligious community building.

Méli [00:28:43]:

Yeah. Super interesting. So especially given what you just said about feeling kind of burned out, what I wonder about is well, I'd like to better understand why you feel burnt out with it. And are there situational things that have contributed to that? Do you think it's quite fundamental to that topic? What's going on there?

Kyle [00:29:07]:

Probably the the biggest reason is personal is that my partner is Israeli. We've been together since 2021. He lives in the United States with me. This past year has been a nightmare filled with worry for his family, filled with worry for him, filled with stress of all of our friends, Jewish, Arab, Christian, Muslim, in all political spectrum and just people who are hurting, but also, like, the way that some of his peers have treated him, you know, or his colleagues have treated him. All of these things together just create a sense of, wow. Like, both the personal and the professional are linked because I'm working in in interreligious engagement, which I love and is important especially now. But it's hard because there's no escaping that these are the issues which contribute to real people's lives, experiencing trauma and stress. So I think that's probably the biggest reason for burnout.

Kyle [00:30:10]:

That's a position I know a lot of people find themselves in right now.

Méli [00:30:13]:

It's a good segue to note that your current work is at the Betty Ann Greenbaum Miller Center For Interreligious Learning and Leadership at Hebrew College.

Kyle [00:30:23]:

That's right.

Méli [00:30:25]:

I totally get that this is inspiring but challenging work. I feel it myself in in in the work that I do, and I'm not knee deep into violence and trauma. But still, it can be such a challenge to bridge differences. And religious differences can be particularly fraught because if one is really adhering to a religion, there are core values at the base of that. And if those are in conflict, that's a serious challenge to bridge that sort of difference. Can you say a little more about what you've been doing at the Miller Center, and what's the state of the state over there in terms of this whole problem of feeling burnt out, and and is there hope for the future?

Kyle [00:31:18]:

Well, first of all, it's it's just a tremendous joy and and pleasure to work over at the Miller Center. I have just the kindest, most sensitive colleagues, people who take seriously that, yeah, it's a job, but it's also a calling. It's also people. And it's it's it's a commitment to people that brings everyone to this work. And so we don't do it for the money. You know, we do it because we wanna bring people together. And so first and foremost, at the Miller Center, but many people who are committed to the interreligious work in general are just kind, open hearted people. And I've learned so much about what it means to be open hearted, to be open minded, and also to be serious about your own values and your own beliefs, and acknowledge that they're not gonna be the same as everyone's, but we have to live and work together.

Kyle [00:32:20]:

This last year has been challenging for a lot of our programs with high school and with college students. Of course, in some of our conversations with adult leaders, clergy, community leaders who are working to keep divided communities together. But I take a real sense of consolation just in the little moments and when we can have small group conversation or person to person conversation about people's backgrounds, why they experienced what they experienced, why they feel what they feel. You can't solve the macro issues, but you can open your heart to someone. And I think that's when the interreligious work is most successful. People like or Rose, who is our director, really show me that and show me how how we can do that. The day to day can be hard because sometimes it feels like it's 2 steps forward, 1 step back. But sometimes you'll get just really kind and heartfelt feedback from a student or an educator, and that will make you say, you can't change the world, but maybe you can change someone's life just a little bit to give them that spark of of open heartedness that might take them to wherever they're going next in life where they can hopefully, you know, in terms of religion and culture and all our divisions, just make things a little bit better.

Méli [00:33:45]:

Yeah. The word that you used several times was open hearted.

Kyle [00:33:49]:

Yeah.

Méli [00:33:50]:

It seems like that is a a leading value and a leading hope in your interfaith work. This is what you are both striving for and experiencing.

Kyle [00:34:01]:

Yeah. I think it's definitely an aspiration. It's not always something that we've already reached. I'll speak for myself. It's not always something that I've already reached, but it is an aspiration.

Méli [00:34:11]:

Okay. Well, that that just begs the question. What is a sort of person or a situation or an event or a place that you are not yet open hearted about?

Kyle [00:34:22]:

Oh, wow. Let me think for a second. I'll speak from my experience as a Catholic. Sometimes in fact, I know that there's a lot of prejudice against Catholics. Not in the same way that there's prejudice against Jews and against Muslims as minorities in this country, but there is, to some people, a sense of prejudice that the Catholic faith is closed minded or backwards, that it's superstitious. And maybe all of Christianity, maybe not just the Catholic church, but I think both specific to the Catholic church, but also maybe all of Christianity, I think there are prejudices that exist, that it's backwards, that it's superstitious, that, you know, it's responsible for a lot of our social ills. Well, I can't speak comprehensively to Christianity's role in a lot of political injustices. Yeah.

Kyle [00:35:18]:

It has, certainly played that role. There's people who are not always willing or able to to see that there's authentic and genuine criticism to be made about the Christian religion or the Catholic church in particular. They're not able to sort of also see the real good or the real authenticity that's also present in it. And I think I struggle to be tolerant to that that kind of mentality that criticizes only and gives blame only as if Christianity were the only factor that's responsible for injustices in our in our American society. And I think do sometimes I do feel like I encounter that prejudice, and that is hurtful. And I don't think it's true even though there is in part a truth to it that a lot of the culture and the proposed values from different Christian churches truly have contributed to unjust situations or hatred or stereotypes towards Jews, Muslims, Hindus, people of other religions, LGBTQ people, etcetera. And, also, that's not the whole story because Christianity also articulates, you know, a message of service, of compassion, of mercy. And so I just I struggle to know exactly how to handle that with patience and and grace if I encounter this mentality that wants to burn to burn it all down because of the bad parts of it.

Méli [00:36:47]:

So what I'm hearing, Kyle, is you are tolerant of everything except intolerance.

Kyle [00:36:54]:

That sounds pretty good. Right?

Méli [00:36:57]:

No charge. So our time is is wrapping up. I wanna touch though briefly on what I think may be the flip side of that problem of intolerance, which is, Lord knows, alive and well in America today, and this is a serious problem. One thing I've heard as a criticism of interfaith work and pluralism in general is that it's an anything goes kind of attitude. That we accept everything, we have no criticism, we have no boundary lines. Do you hear that, and what is your response to that?

Kyle [00:37:40]:

I do hear that. I think it's interesting because I hear it from conservatives, but I also hear it from liberals. Maybe not in the same way, I hear it from conservatives sometimes that there's a worry that we're watering down what we believe in, that we have to sacrifice our beliefs if we wanna engage in this way. But I also think sometimes from liberals, there's a expectation that everyone agrees with you, that everyone should be on the same page politically, that if you come to this space, maybe you have to also subscribe to to one specific political viewpoint, which is, like, the liberal viewpoint. Neither one needs to be true of interreligious, or pluralistic work. It's always attention what it means to be a part of a group of people where you have different values and different beliefs, but it's also a really beautiful opportunity. One thing that I wish more people could know is that you can be anywhere on the political spectrum as long as you're tolerant, and you can be involved in interreligious work, dialogue, and learning. You can be an atheist.

Kyle [00:38:52]:

You can be an agnostic. You can be orthodox of any religion, observant to the letter of the law. And as long as you're tolerant, as long as you're kind, you have a place. We have to understand how we can talk about things that we disagree about, which is very hard. It's easier to talk about the things that that aren't tension, and that's a great place to start. And when you really have those serious relationships, then you can talk about the things that are are really hard. And, hopefully, God willing, people have the compassion, the sensitivity, the ability to recognize whatever their sense of the divine image in somebody is, is that everybody has that, and that's what we hope for.

Méli [00:39:35]:

Yeah. Fair enough. And yet, I would say, especially to you as a Catholic, there is this, famous line I'm from sure you're familiar with from, John 14:6. I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me, which is what Jesus said. I, as a Jew, find that kinda problematic. Yeah. And I think that sort of exclusivist view, which Catholicism really holds, contributes to that problem.

Méli [00:40:10]:

So you're saying lots of nice things. I appreciate that you're acknowledging that you have challenges and then not you're not you're not portraying yourself as a perfect, being, which is good. But I do in these last few moments, I wonder how do you as a Catholic deal with that quote from John?

Kyle [00:40:30]:

There's a lot of really interesting documents that the Vatican has put forward, especially in the last half century. I think particularly when it comes to the Catholic church's relationship with Protestant and Orthodox churches and with Jews, There have been a lot of theological works promulgated by the pope by different popes, by the Vatican, to the most orthodox interpretation of the Catholic church. The teaching is that the the relationship between the Jewish people and God is irrevocable, full stop. That wasn't taught for centuries centuries. And, of course, that's only after the holocaust that the the Vatican understood the dire need to release such theological work. It's really complicated. You know, I I am a Roman Catholic. I do believe in the Catholic church.

Kyle [00:41:30]:

We, as Catholics, have the sacramental life. So we have mass. We have the Eucharist, you know, which is communion with God, we have sacrament of reconciliation, we have holy orders, which is when people are ordained to become clergy. And the belief is that when people are ordained to become clergy, it's it's a line of succession that starts with Jesus and his apostles and comes all the way to the present day, and that that it's an unbroken chain. There are distinctive things that are part of the teachings of the Catholic faith and distinctive ways that we are taught that we engage with God and experience God and God's presence. I don't think it's necessary. In fact, if I thought it was necessary to believe that there's no salvation outside of the Catholic church, then I would not be a Catholic. I don't think the Catholic church teaches that.

Kyle [00:42:31]:

Even in its most orthodox interpretation, I don't think it teaches that. Though, of course, there are people who do believe that. If anything, I think you could say the Catholic church does claim that it has the the closest understanding of who God is and what what relationship God has with humanity. I don't believe that to be true. I believe that that there is so obviously a sense of love and compassion and mercy, just holiness present with within people from all different religious backgrounds and beliefs. My lived experience says something different than maybe how how doctrine articulates it. But if something is doctrine and I don't think it's harmful, then I don't think it's necessary for me to spend a lot of time trying to refute it. There's beliefs which people find hard to believe, which is fine, but there are also beliefs which people find harmful.

Kyle [00:43:33]:

And so the beliefs that that are are found to be harmful should be examined and and searched through. We believe in the Holy Spirit. We believe that God is present and living in in conversation with humankind. We have consciences, and we have this living relationship with God. And so if something is causing harm, we have an obligation to examine it, to evaluate it. It's something like people are are struggling to believe in the real presence of God, of Jesus in the Eucharist, for example. It doesn't have an implication about race or gender the same way that people struggling to understand why the Catholic church teaches what it teaches about marriage, and which is a whole other issue, which we just don't have time to talk about. And and also I certainly struggle with really wrestle to try to get my head around and figure out what to do with.

Méli [00:44:32]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And just as a point of of information, a small data point, the doctrine you were trying to think of is the Nostra Aetate, Pope John the 6, 1965. I will put a link to that in the show notes. Yeah. Clearly, there is much to discuss here, and I hope we can talk again in the future. But, Kyle, we are going to need to leave it there. This has been a wonderful conversation.

Méli [00:45:00]:

Thank you so much for coming on my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I really appreciate the time and the attention and your willingness, in your words, to be open hearted.

Kyle [00:45:13]:

Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Méli [00:45:17]:

My pleasure. Okay. Bye bye. Thank you so much for listening. This Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. In that research, I explore how Jews, Christians, and Muslims live their faith, including their sense of God, prayer practice, and how faith is present in daily life. If you'd like to keep up to date about the project, subscribe to my twice monthly newsletter at www.talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.