Auschwitz, Berlin, and Catholicism – Luis Ferreiro

Episode 67. 
Luis Ferreiro is the CEO of the Spanish family museum exhibition company Musealia, which creates and manages traveling exhibits that educate and inspire us about major world events. The exhibit currently in Boston Auschwitz. Not long ago. Not far away, which he produced in conjunction with the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum addresses this historical site and environs through more than 700 objects. In this upcoming podcast episode, Luis talks about the inspiration for and core message of the Auschwitz exhibit. He also talks about another exhibit, currently showing in Madrid, The Berlin Wall: A World Divided. Interwoven through these topics is the role his Catholic upbringing plays in his life and exhibition work. 

Highlights:
·       Influence of Luis’s Catholic upbringing

·       Development of exhibition Auschwitz. Not long ago. Not far away

·       Influence of Viktor Frankl's book "Man’s Search of Meaning" after the loss of Luis's brother

·       Inspiration for The Berlin Wall: A World Divided exhibition

·       Church of Reconciliation and Bernauer Strasse 

·       Redemption and its connection to Christian and Jewish perspectives

·       Significance of religious traditions and international museum work

References:

Viktor Frankl – Man’s Search for Meaning

Church of Reconciliation, former East Berlin, Germany (GDR).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8ZMppvkqoI
https://www.visitberlin.de/en/chapel-reconciliation

 Brendan Killian’s Living Our Beliefs episode God, Sobriety + Art

Social Media links for guest: 

Musealia website – https://www.musealia.net

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271


Transcript:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/15037534


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Chapters

• 0:05 Introduction
• 2:18 Background
• 5:19 Catholic values and morals
• 8:20 Personal practice
• 19:14 Museum work
• 23:58 Auschwitz. Not long ago. Not far away
• 33:38 Berlin Wall: A World Divided

Transcript

Luis Ferreiro transcript

Auschwitz, Berlin, and Catholicism

Méli [00:00:05]:

Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meili Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. This is episode 67 and my guest today is Luis Ferreiro. Luis is the CEO of the family Spanish museum exhibition company, Musealia, which creates and manages traveling exhibits that educate and inspire us about major world events.

The exhibit currently in Boston, Auschwitz. Not Long Ago. Not Far Away., which he produced in conjunction with the Auschwitz Birkenau State Museum, addresses this historical site and environs through more than 700 objects. In today's podcast episode, Luis talks about the inspiration for and core message of the Auschwitz exhibit. He also talks about another exhibit currently showing in Madrid, Spain, The Berlin Wall A World Divided. Interwoven through these topics is the role his Catholic upbringing plays in his life and exhibition work. Luis lives in San Sebastian, Spain. Links to Musealia and other references are in the show notes. Hello, Luis. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast.

Méli [00:02:03]:

I'm so pleased to have you on today.

Luis [00:02:06]:

Thank you so much, Meli. It's a pleasure to be speaking to you.

Méli [00:02:10]:

I'd like to begin with my usual first question. What is your religious and cultural identity?

Luis [00:02:18]:

I would define myself as someone who was brought as a Catholic within Christianity. Although I do not practice, I do feel, of course, that I belong to this wider term of, Catholicism in in Spain.

Méli [00:02:33]:

Were you raised within Catholicism?

Luis [00:02:36]:

I was, and I remember vividly, not my baptism, but certainly, I had a sister who was one of those teachers that actually so was doing some of those lessons. And I remember my first communion and, going to church on quite often. So, yes, I was brought in those values certainly and and with within the the the number of things that the charge was asking you to to do.

Méli [00:03:01]:

But I understand that at this point, you do not consider yourself observant.

Luis [00:03:09]:

That is right. Yes.

Méli [00:03:11]:

What do you do? How how often are you engaged with the church?

Luis [00:03:16]:

1st of all, I'm very interested in the philosophical implications of religion and in this case of Catholicism. I I am Spanish, therefore, I'm European. And in Spain, of course, it is really impossible to understand our culture without making a reference to the Catholic church. So in that regard, I feel very much that the values of Catholicism aren't rooted in in my moral sensibility, so to speak.

Méli [00:03:46]:

Yeah. And I can imagine that because Spain is a predominantly Catholic country, that the Catholic values and the calendar, the church calendar, are really infused. They are really deep in the culture and dictate very much the the attitudes and the value of the culture.

Luis [00:04:11]:

Absolutely. I would completely agree. From even the even those who don't observe or even they would call themselves agnostic or non-believers. There is on one end, of course, things that are very practical in terms of the holidays we all celebrate. In terms of just being with your family, weeks like Christmas, days like Christmas or now Easter, and certainly, you know, Sunday is the day where most of the people would have a a day for resting. So there's there's those things which are clearly very practical that affect our life on a everyday basis. And then I think it's also impossible to refer to the Spanish culture without understanding and making a connection to to Christianity and and to Catholicism. So the certain values which are rooted in in education, in the law even, I think, of course, are very much in connection to this traditional, religious background of, of Catholicism in in my in my country.

Méli [00:05:19]:

Are there particular values or morals that you still hold that you think come out of your Catholic upbringing?

Luis [00:05:31]:

I would say so. I would say that this notion of of love. I would say that probably if I if I have to try to go back into the essence of what I was taught to take my first communion or if I look into what are the roots of our values and morals that can be connected to to religion in Christianity or in Catholicism. I would say this notion of love, of a God that is taking care of you, that is loving you, that is forgiving you. And at the same time that you have there someone who you can always trust in your darkest moment. Someone that you are never you are never alone. That you should forgive the others. That you should love your brothers and sisters.

That you should not steal, you should not do certain things. And, of course, these are so much mixed with Jewish religion and and cultural heritage also. So it's it's it's difficult, of course, to make a to draw the line in between both. But, certainly, I would say that in the essence of of the message, in this case of Catholicism, I would certainly highlight this notion of love.

Méli [00:06:41]:

Yeah. It's interesting. In some of my conversations with American Christians, with Protestants, they have mentioned God as love, that that is also the the dominant quality that they hold and why they are in their case, they're practicing Christians.

Luis [00:07:02]:

Yes. And and this notion of trying to do good without looking at who you do it, it's what they say in in Spanish, which I believe comes also from from, a religious perspective. So it's this this notion of love, which can be you know, if you take it as a wide concept, it's about helping, those who need. It's about understanding that God is in in the person who is asking for help at the, outside of the charge. So that you have to share what you have with, with the others that you have to forgive and that all those notions. I think there's my personal taking into how I absorbed all of those lessons was maybe not so much in observing certainly, in the liturgy of of the religion, but certainly in the in the core message. And from a philosophical point of view, I'm interested, of course, in understanding who we are and and what is this world that we live in. And and for that, of course, this notion that one learns about love, about this life having a greater meaning, not just, flesh and bones, is something that has always been, reconfirming to me, I would say.

Méli [00:08:20]:

Yeah. It's interesting to me that you have held these values, and those are values that make complete sense as as I understand Christianity and more specifically Catholicism, and yet you do not attend church regularly. You said you you don't attend church regularly. I get the sense you attend when there is a wedding or a funeral, maybe Christmas mass and the Easter service?

Luis [00:08:56]:

Yes. In some cases. But I actually it's always very interesting because if I look back at my moments of dark, if you want, for one of the other reasons, some were more important when you are now, grown up. When you are young, small things affect you. But I do remember feeling very sad many years ago because, my first girlfriend left me, and I was I was deeply in despair. And I remember actually going to a small church in in – I was touring with, I work in exhibitions in museums – so I was touring with one of our exhibitions, and we were in in Melilla, which is a city, Spanish city in Africa, in the coast North Coast of Africa. And there was this beautiful small white chart, very small, but it was so full of light.

And I just from time to time went there. I sat there. I know the the official liturgy, but I actually prefer a more personal approach to my relationship to God. So I just go there. I sit down. I I think. I speak. I pray. I speak to God, and I ask him, you know, for help, for light. And it's very interesting because I was also working in the in the exhibition a few days after, and I, there was this group of nuns going through the through the exhibition. It was a Titanic exhibition, so it was a tragedy also. And and I don't know why, but I just told them, you know, I feel so sad. And and they told me something I still remember. They gave me the one, they told me, we will pray for you. That's all, actually. And it it just felt reconfirming to hear by someone who you don't know, you're never going to see again in the future, and you know that they felt it.

You know? We will pray for you. And they gave me also this. I don't know if it's a rosary. And, and they told me, you know, at night, just pray and read this. And which I did, and I still have it in my in my wallet. So I don't sort of go by the book if you want, if if we can use this expression in this context, but that doesn't mean that I don't pray or like that. I raise my eyes and ask God for help and for, comfort and in the end for for love. Right?

Méli [00:11:18]:

What a touching moment there in the exhibit. You know, how how wonderful to have found that small church. Now I've had some of those moments as well, and I get the sense that these moments of comfort in a sanctuary doesn't even need to be your particular religion. Frankly, I've had moving moments in churches, and I'm a Jew. Right? I've never been a practicing Christian, and yet there's something about the feeling of a particular space that is really a holy space that that you can feel even if you're not in a service. It is not about the liturgy. It is not about clergy leading a service or or any of that. It's really something about the space and the feeling of holiness.

Luis [00:12:17]:

Yeah. And and each each one of us has its own backpack of life experience. Life is tough. Sometimes we complain, and we look at others and say, oh, they have this or they have that. I wish I had this or that or more money or or a easier life or a better job or this or that. But so I think you have to be open, and and it's not always that you have, you know, your open to receive that. And there are places and not always because I I felt I I still remember that charge because of the light and how warm I felt spiritually speaking. 

And and because also and maybe that's why I prefer to go maybe when there is no service. I don't feel sort of pushed. I feel I am there, and it's me when I want to be there, and nobody's observing. I don't have to do this and that exactly as the book says. I'm just in my own time, when I am ready. I think there's a combination of factors, but I think we are humans and we need sometimes places, right, to to help us feel those those things and those connections. And in my case, it was, for instance, in Africa, and I remember with with a smile.

Méli [00:13:34]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And you've also brought something else to mind, Luis, that an earlier podcast guest I had, Brendan Killian. I will put a link in the show notes. He grew up Catholic, very strictly Catholic. He he's American, and he's a painter. He does not now attend a Catholic church regularly. He attends a different kind of church, but he still goes in just like you said, he goes into a certain Catholic church when there is no service because the light and the paintings, the stained glass, the feeling are very soothing and just the quiet in that sanctuary. It's just interesting that two of you have very different practices but are having the same kind of rich experience in that particular kind of space.

Luis [00:14:32]:

And and in my case, my parents were Catholic, more observing than I am, but not to the point of attending on a regular basis every Sunday to to charge, but from time to time. And it's very interesting because I was born when they were still not married, so they married afterwards. So, you know, they were I would not call them hippie at all. But for those times in Spain, it was maybe not that common. But they both believe I was brought up with, not only in the values, but also in this sense of maybe not observing on a regular basis, but certainly having always this this tight, relationship in in in a way, this link. It's funny. It brings so many memories. But, we never spoke about this.

But my father, he took us, by car from home to school almost every day for a couple of years when I was at 6th grade, 7th grade. You know, without saying anything before, it was my brother, my father, and I in the car. And just out of the blue, he made a small pray every day. I don't remember exactly what it was. We never spoke before about this fact. We never spoke after, but it was, like, one minute where he suddenly just started to being a little bit like a priest and and saying this small I don't know, the small pray in in Spanish, of course. You know? And we would do the sign of the of the cross when we finished, and we never spoke between us of why. But we didn't really need to speak.

I mean, it was just something that he felt he has he had been brought up in that, tradition. And, I guess, in the end, it's wishing some, well, protection, someone protection and you know, for the day. I was young, and I I never felt like, you know, anything against it. I felt I felt it was something warm and something good. So as I said, you know, maybe I I take a more sort of a personal approach, when it comes to the relationship with with religion or with Catholicism. But the values and the core and the essence, I think they were always in the in the background.

Méli [00:16:53]:

Just a small question about your father saying the prayer. Would he say that before the journey you would get in the car and he would say that before he started driving?

Luis [00:17:04]:

No. No. No. Actually, while we were driving, but it was always between the moment we left home and the and before we arrived. I tend to believe it was when we were getting near the the the school. I think that was the the case. And he always had, like, a, like, a chain with a cross. And, again, didn't attend on a regular basis.

Some occasionally, from time to time, we went to church, but not on a on a regular basis. I know that he believes, of course, and he's someone – we were 7, brothers and sisters, and, unfortunately, he lost 3 children. 

Meli 

Mhmm. 

Luis: 

So a lot of suffering in life, but I always found it interesting how, you know, someone who has suffered a lot still has this strong belief, and link to to to God despite everything. Or maybe, you know, due to that, it's difficult to say.

Méli [00:18:02]:

Yeah. Despite or because of. Just one more small note, and then I want to talk about your museum work. I have seen Christians make the sign of the cross when they pass a church. And so now I'm wondering, was was your father passing a church when he when he did that near the school?

Luis [00:18:22]:

Maybe. I I don't think it was because of location, but I never asked. I could ask him now because, but it's something that it's I in one way, it's so personal that we, you know, we didn't really had to speak about it. And maybe it was because he comes from a a family of fishermen. So maybe it was something of a tradition to protect, you you know, the family or or or or the gang who goes out for the day in in a ship.

Méli [00:18:54]:

Absolutely. Yeah. A lot of religions, certainly, Judaism has a prayer for, you know, before you travel or before you do something that maybe puts you in danger, and certainly, I'm sure Christianity does as well. What an interesting memory.

Luis [00:19:13]:

Yeah.

Méli [00:19:14]:

Okay. I'd like to shift to your museum work. Your bio notes that you have more than 20 years of international experience.

Luis [00:19:25]:

That's right.

Méli [00:19:26]:

And I'm I'm curious about how working internationally, how has that been important to you?

Luis [00:19:35]:

First of all, because I get the chance to know people from different cultures, different religions, different walks of life, and and that, of course, is always enriching for, for oneself. You you get to understand a lot and see a, see a lot. What I find always interesting is how projects start. You know? In the case of of Auschwitz, you know, the exhibit that now it's in it's in Boston. As I said before, my we work in exhibitions. My my family founded this company, Musealia, and, it was my my father, my mother, my brother, and and I. And, you know, we used to call our ourselves the monster of our heads, and we were creating and working together. And then, of course, Auschwitz came into our life because of the loss of my of my brother in 2008.

He was 25, 26, and he died of a sudden heart attack. And this was devastating, of course, for for the family in first place and for the company also. I was given this book by the mother of my my girlfriend at that time, one year after. So this is in 2009 for my birthday, this book called Man in Search of Meaning by Viktor Frankl. They were very religious, by the way. Christian, Catholic Catholics, very observing. And she gave me this this book. And in the beginning, I thought, well, it sounds a little bit like self-help, and I didn't want to I didn't feel like reading it.

But that summer, I just started reading the first pages. And what I really was touched by, there's two things. But the first one was that in the edition that I bought, he has, like, a few pages of introduction where he explains that he felt a little bit in a crossroads because he was, of course, a Jew in in Austria, and he had the chance because of his, university connections, he had the chance to leave the country with his wife that was pregnant, but then he had to leave his parents behind, you know, world where he knew they could probably be killed, or he could stay and stay with his parents at the risk, of course, of his own life and his wife's and future son’s life. And he decided to to stay, but the way he just places that crossroads I am very much always in crossroads in, you know, in doubt. Shall we do this or that? And I felt always a very strong link to to my family. I think that is probably I don't know. I tend to think that it has to do also something with with religion, this notion of of family of the family being first. And that was the thing that actually made me read the rest of book.

And then, of course, I was profoundly touched by the way he describes his experience of being a in in Auschwitz and different camps and what happened psychologically to someone that is in those conditions. And also the way he sort of creates a space between what he's narrating and himself, and it's sort of very scientific. And that's how actually the idea of creating an exhibition about our speech came about. He speaks, of course, in many ways about religion in the camp, on religion in in general, and the sense of of life. In in that way, of course, religion had also a small role. I don't know if it's small or big in the idea of of the Auschwitz exhibition, for example.

Méli [00:23:14]:

Sorry to hear of the loss of your brother.

Luis [00:23:17]:

Yeah. I mean, 16 years ago. Actually, a few days ago, still shocking and still, you know, it's a it's a wound that you learn to live with, but that is always there and very present. And at the same time, we had the opening of exhibit in Boston on March 15th to the public. My brother died on 16th. I was there, and I was thinking nothing can change what happened, of course. But to have that connection with my brother there in that exhibition is always something meaningful.

Méli [00:23:48]:

Yeah. I can well imagine. Interesting how timing sometimes just connects. You certainly did not plan that.

Luis [00:23:57]:

Absolutely.

Méli [00:23:58]:

But there it was. So the Auschwitz exhibit, which as you mentioned is is currently in Boston, it is here until September 2nd. I definitely encourage everyone to go visit. I got a brief tour and, will be returning myself. It is called Auschwitz. Not long ago. Not far away. Musealia put together in conjunction with the Auschwitz Birkenau State Museum.

Luis [00:24:27]:

That is right.

Méli [00:24:29]:

How would you briefly describe what the exhibit is?

Luis [00:24:34]:

I would say that it's an attempt to understand what Auschwitz was and means from both the angle of the site. That is what is the story of this place that before a concentration and extermination camp, there is a village called Oswiecim in Polish, Oshpitzin in Yiddish. So what is the history of this place? And then, of course, the history of the concentration and extermination camp. So what happens there? To understand exactly this chronological line of events that ended up in the existence of this camp. How was it even possible? How was it possible for this place to exist? And then, of course, it's it's a reflection on the borderless inhumanity of mankind. How far can the dark side of our soul, of our heart go to? So it's a reflection for me on on those two aspects, and it would have not been possible, of course, the Auschwitz Birkenau State Museum, our partners, and all the artifacts we have from them, which bring the authenticity of, the extermination. And it is an exhibition I have to say. A lot of people ask us, is it another exhibition? And it's it is, of course, in the sense that a lot of what happens in Auschwitz is about the, but not everything that happens here, which is the, and, certainly, the is much more than what happens in our switch in particular.

So we also deal with other groups of victims. And as I said before, the story of this place as a case study, but it's only one small village, but it helped us understand so many thousands and thousands of villages in Eastern Europe and the current absence of Jewish, not only culture, but people. So, you know, sometimes a lot of students come to the exhibit and they think of the hollow cows as something in the past. But if one wants to see the Holocaust, the effects of the Holocaust, you only have to travel to Eastern Europe. And if you see what I mean, to see the void, the absence of presence that is so brutal in Eastern Europe. But in in any case, I think it's an opportunity to be confronted with a history that that happened not long ago and not far away. And to see the artifacts and to see the knowledge of of all the historians, experts, our curators, you know, it was one of the most fascinating things of this journey for me of creating the exhibition was to be able to work with Robert Jan van Pelt, with Miriam Greenbaum, with Paul Sammons, with Michael Brenbaum, with Jamelle Snedi, with with the team of experts who had all this knowledge and was able to share it in in a way that can be transformed into an exhibition. And they became real friends also, of course, in this journey.

For me, it's a journey of gratitude. It started and it's still, of course, a very strong link to my brother. And and in that way, it started with pain, but it's a journey of gratitude to all the people that from institutions to individuals that made the exhibition possible. I knocked so many doors and talking about love and religion. And I don't remember anybody who would just say no. You know, all of them were opening their arms and their hearts to to make this possible. So, you know, for me, it's also very special in that way.

Méli [00:27:58]:

Well, an exhibit like that is a huge undertaking and certainly a team effort.

Luis [00:28:05]:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it was years in the making. And and it was so interesting, of course, to to be able to to spend time with, with with our historians, also with the people in the museum, with architects, with the internal team in Musealia, you know, that worked so very hard from communications to museography to collections, to production to operations that made it possible. As I said before, I can only be humbled because it was something that I I felt a moral talking also about religion when I read Man in Search of Meaning [sic], I I felt a moral imperative to do something. And, of course, what I could do was an exhibition. A lot of people shared that vision and and made it possible.

Méli [00:28:56]:

That soothes the soul to ask and have someone say, yes. I will help.

Luis [00:29:03]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Méli [00:29:06]:

Yeah. And it's interesting that you noted the the gratitude and and, you know, really beginning with the pain of your your brother's death. But another religious word that came to mind I wanted to ask about is is redemption. It strikes me as a very Christian term. I I don't feel like we Jews talk about redemption, but it's certainly very strong in in Christianity, including Catholicism. Has that been an aspect do you think that there is redemption as part of the Auschwitz exhibit somehow?

Luis [00:29:48]:

I guess it depends on how we understand the term redemption. If we is redemption a synonym of forgiveness in the case of English?

Méli [00:29:58]:

I think of redemption as you have done something wrong or bad, and some transformation happens. You do something, and then the relationship or you are healed. So it is like you got sick and you got healthy again. It it's that kind of transformation.

Luis [00:30:23]:

I would say that certainly for me, I can only speak of on my behalf. The process of creating the exhibition was a journey. I don't know if I can call it a journey of redemption, but certainly a journey in which, you know, you have all these all these feelings of of gratitude, of pain because it was not easy, and and there were moments where, are we going to pull this? Are we gonna make it? Are people going to come? You know, a lot of a lot of things that are we doing the right way also, even from the beginning? Right? Is is it is it a good approach to do an exhibition about, about this particular topic? So there were many, many questions. We went, and it's a journey because we literally went across the bluff from from Jerusalem to LA to, you know, so many places in in Europe. And and in that journey, of course, one learns and and in a way, one improves because he she is in touch with so many other people from whom we learn and who we can grow spiritually and personally. In Spanish also, sometimes redemption has this this sense of forgiveness, and I learned a lot. And this is also what I take from from from this exhibition. I learned a lot from from so many great people.

And in the particular case of of forgiveness, you know, I would not apply forgiveness in my particular case with relation to Auschwitz because and people ask me a lot, you know, and I tell the story of my brother. That's how it happened. But in reality, I just did what I think was the right thing to do. Nothing more. There's nothing more to be set in terms of justification of why we did this exhibition. I found it surprising that there was no exhibition. You know, the first thing I did was, is there any Auschwitz exhibition? And, of course, there are many museums, and there are many Holocaust museums, and there's, many books and themes and but no exhibition with artifacts that were touring. And Michael Brenbaum always says that people need to go to Auschwitz, and Auschwitz need to go to the people, and Auschwitz needs to go to the world.

So I think that is a little bit our mission. But for me in the core, when people ask me, I cannot give a wonderful intellectual answer. I can only say that I had a very strong feeling that this was the thing that we had to do. And I might, in the end, have, of course, a link to maybe a religious or a moral, standpoint. Also, people ask me, how do you feel? And justice is the right thing to do. I mean, I think it's very important from a historical point of view and and for the memory of the victims and as an educational tool so that people can understand where certain ideologies of hatred can lead us to. In that sense, it's interesting because Auschwitz gives us no alibi, no excuse. We do know, and we cannot blame ignorance. You know? So so it takes that thing from us. We we are responsible of whatever happens. As I said, I I just felt it was the right thing to do.

Méli [00:33:38]:

And I'm so glad you did it, and I look forward to returning to the exhibit. Another exhibit I wanted to ask you about is the Berlin Wall: A World Divided, which I understand is currently on view in Madrid?

Luis [00:33:57]:

That is right. We just opened it a few months ago after 3, 4 years of work for us. Every exhibition that we do is 4, 5 years of of work because it's 4 years of our life that we almost devote. As I said before, we work with experts in those particular fields, but, of course, you have to read a lot to be able to understand the frame and the larger vision and and be able to transform this knowledge of academics and of experts into an exhibition in a way that that works for a narrative in in a very special environment with which is an exhibition with original artifacts. So, actually, it has a connection with Auschwitz because I was traveling a lot to Berlin. I met once with Robert Jan and with Miriam Greenbaum there. We had a nice dinner. And in in in one of those trips, you know, I just had I keep having, like, a few hours left at the end of the day, and I just needed a break from from the work in Auschwitz, and I just went walking through Berlin.

And most of the time, I just ended up in because of, proximity with our hotel. And there you have the memorial. You have the large section of the wall. And I just kept looking at it and kept looking at it. And, I was also, at the time, reading, Isaiah Berlin. Actually, it was a speech that he gave in, University of Toronto. And Isaiah Berlin is very interesting, of course, because he was born at the early years of 20th century, I think 1905 or or 6, whatever, and he died just before the year 2000. So his entire life was in the 20th century, and what a century.

So he lived through First World War, Second World War, genocide. The title of this speech was Message for the 21st Century. And I was looking at the Wall and reading the speech, and and I just asked myself, what is the message of these walls that are are here? You know, what is the message of the this was of the 20th century to us, citizens of the 21st century? And that is a point where I, again, I started having a very strong focus in this is a story that we need to tell. And we work we we spoke with the Berlin Wall Foundation, and, we had an agreement, and and therefore, we display 20 meters of the wall itself. And we explained the story of the Berlin Wall within the context of the Cold War. And it's very interesting because the Cold War in the end, there's this battle that is not only military battle, but philosophical battle between 2 different completely different approaches about how we should live together. And one of them, of course, in this case, the communism also had a very strong point of view about religion, and creating a new man. And in a way, killing God if if this expression is is understood.

And we we talked, of course, about the story of the Berlin Wall, about this battle of ideologies, and the situation of Christians, in this case, protestants in in the GDR. So for me, in the end, I think that all of these stories, they help us to understand part of our history, but they also help us ask wider, more profound questions about humankind. And and those are universal issues, and that's why I think these exhibitions are important today but were important 10 years ago, and hopefully, they will be important 10 years from now because they deal with issues that reflect on who we are and what is this world we we live in, also from a spiritual point of view. And also in Auschwitz, we touch on Christianity in terms of the, of anti-Judaism and antiSemitism. We usually say, we hope we have more non-Jewish visitors to the exhibition because the the virus of antisemitism is in our blood. So it's more important in that way that Christians or Arabs or non-Jewish visit the exhibition. And we also deal with in the case of the Berlin Wall because it has this background of communism as an answer to capitalism in terms of creating a new version of humankind where God and religion had a completely different role, if any, than in the case of, of capitalism or liberal democracies.

Méli [00:38:25]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I really hope to be able to see that exhibit. Will the Berlin exhibit travel?

Luis [00:38:32]:

That is the plan. Hopefully, it will be touring the world in the next 7 years, and it's very interesting now that we're talking, about the region. There was in Bernauer Strasse in the street where the buildings were actually the the the border. So if you were in the building, you were in the GDR, and there was a charge there. They call it Church of Reconciliation. And it was for almost, 25 years, it was forbidden to go there. There was no no services. And in the eighties, I think ‘85, actually, it was demolished by the GDR authorities.

It's a it's a longer story. There is also a story of of relationships to trying to have a better situation of Christians in the GDR by demolishing that church and building a different ones in different areas outside of the perimeter of the wall and so on. But in any case, there is this say because it had this sort of long tower that it was the finger the finger of God pointing to the to the wall as a as a crime against humans. So I think all of our exhibitions in the end deal with notions that affect, of course, the values of, of humans and therefore their, religion to to God or or their religion.

Méli [00:39:50]:

The Bernauer Strasse that you speak of is such a powerful place. I lived in Berlin for almost 9 years and, visited that area a number of times. When you spoke earlier, Luis, about the church in Africa Mhmm. The Church of Reconciliation in Berlin was one of the spaces I thought of. The East German government did demolish the beautiful, I would say, 19th century brick, very large sanctuary with the very tall steeple you mentioned. But after reunification, a small chapel was constructed. It's quite contemporary. It's a beautiful quiet space, very spare, white inside, plain benches, and it's it's a beautiful space.

One of the things that I have found moving about that area is that in cleaning up the space after reunification, they found the the church bells. And they are set not up high like they normally are, but they're just set in in a wooden structure on the ground. I don't believe they are functional anymore. They got damaged, in in the destruction. But talk about redemption. To find the bells was, I think, a a beautiful thing. Then farther down the street, as you mentioned, the section of the wall, and then also there's a wonderful stretch of wall with with photographs and text in German and English so you can read about the history of the area. And there's a wonderful museum across the street about the wall and fascism in in general. It's been a long time since I went there. But if anyone is visiting Berlin, I I encourage you to to go there and see all of these things.

Luis [00:42:00]:

Absolutely. And the curator of the what they call the the outside exhibition, the one you mentioned, there's also curator we have worked with. He's the one of the chief curator for of the project of the Berlin Wall as an exhibition. And and I had the pleasure to spend a couple of hours with him with Gerald Salter, and he walked us through the entire area. And it was absolutely powerful to hear all the stories and especially the one of the church. We display artifacts of the church, and I actually, I've never been inside the small chapel they have, but I remember sort of this wood I I don't know why I I so wood structure, very warm. It's one of those places I I have to go back and talking about redemption, not to just at least to show gratitude and and and be in in that chapel. And it was another important journey in my life and and to to sit there and just to be grateful for everything that has happened and for the project to be a reality. I will write down for my to do list when I visit Berlin next time.

Méli [00:43:12]:

Wonderful. Well, hopefully, we can talk again after that visit and hear how that was for you. Yeah. Luis, this has been such a wonderful conversation. We could clearly go on and on. Thank you again for coming on my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I will put a link to your Musealia organization so people can see the exhibits you have organized and a link to the Auschwitz exhibit so they can buy tickets and go visit that. Do you have any closing words before we say goodbye?

Luis [00:43:50]:

Just words of gratitude, Meli, for such a wonderful conversation and for opening me memories, that are nice, that I am fond to remember. And I think as we have spoken, I think in in in life at the end, we are not only flesh and bones and and and to be able to speak openly about our spiritual dimension is is very helpful for for for me in my case. So I'm very grateful for for your invitation and for having me.

Méli [00:44:18]:

My pleasure. Alright. Well, you have a good evening. Thank you. Take care. 

Thank you so much for listening. This Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. In that research, I explore how Jews, Christians and Muslims live their faith, including their sense of God, prayer practice, and how faith is present in daily life.

If you'd like to keep up to date about the project, subscribe to my twice monthly newsletter at www.talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.