A Christian on Dismantling Racism – Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery

Episode 58.
Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery, a pastologist (ordained minister and licensed psychologist), TEDx speaker, and author, joins me to talk about her second book Dismantling Racism: Healing Separation from the Inside Out. Packed with stories of anti-racism and ways to increase one’s sacred intelligence, Dismantling Racism proved a rich and engaging topic for our conversation. Terrlyn shares her ideas on the intersection of sacred motive, self-ish mindset and shared movement. We can each contribute something to this critical personal and communal work. Quoting the bible’s Scroll of Esther, she notes that “You were born for such a time as this.” Tune in for inspiration!


Highlights:
·       Sacred Motive, Self-ish Mindset and Shared Movement
·       Tear down harmful systems and increase racial equity
·       Focus on continual growth, incorporate small actions into your life.
·       BREATHE: Breathe, Reflect, Engage, Adjust, Heal
·       Breath as a connection to the Divine, to the sacred.
·       Acknowledge and use the anger of injustice and connect with others in a loving way.
·       Learn, ask questions, and listen for the wisdom.


References:
Robin Diangelo – White Fragility: Why it’s so Hard for White People to Talk About Racism

Social Media links for Terrlyn:
Sacred Intelligence – www.sacredintelligence.com

Dismantle Racism Movement – www.dismantleracismmovement.com

TEDx Speaker: Wounded by Religion

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/terrlyncurryavery

Instagram – revdrtlc

Twitter – RevDrTLC

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-terrlyn-l-curry-avery/

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271


Transcript:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/14286736-dismantling-racism-rev-dr-terrlyn-curry-avery


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Chapters

• 0:05 Introduction
• 2:00 Terrlyn's Christian path
• 2:26 Dismantling Racism book
• 8:24 Sacred Intelligence
• 15:27 Dismantling Racism and racial equity
• 23:42 Experience of racism and growing through it
• 31:05 Faith as a foundation
• 35:41 Mindset

Transcript

Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery transcript

Dismantling Racism 

Meli  [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. This is episode 58, and my guest today is Reverend Doctor Terrlyn Curry Avery. Terrlyn is a pathologist, meaning an ordained minister and licensed psychologist, TEDx speaker, and author who invites people into transformation through the journey of sacred intelligence, tapping into one's internal source in order to make intelligent choices that manifest the good of humanity. She helps leaders discover how their sphere of influence can change the status quo and dismantle racism. She is the author of 2 books, dismantling racism, healing separation from the inside out, and her earlier book, sacred intelligence, the essence of sacred, selfish, and shared relationships. Additionally, she is the host of dismantle racism on talkradio.nyc. Terrlyn lives in Connecticut. Her social media links are listed in the show notes. Hello, Terrlyn. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I'm so pleased to have you on today.

Terrlyn [00:01:57]:

Thank you for having me. It's good to be here.

Meli  [00:02:00]:

I'd like to begin with my usual first question. What is your religious and cultural identity?

Terrlyn [00:02:07]:

I identify as African American, and I am Presbyterian.

Meli  [00:02:13]:

Were you brought up as a Presbyterian?

Terrlyn [00:02:16]:

Yes. I was. I'm 4th generation Presbyterian.

Meli  [00:02:19]:

Is that very common?

Terrlyn [00:02:21]:

Not very common at all, particularly as an African American.

Meli  [00:02:26]:

Oh, really? Okay. We are here mostly to hear about how your passion, faith, and fight to dismantle racism has been channeled through your writing. We're mostly going to talk about your most recent book, your 2nd book, Dismantling Racism: Healing Separation from the Inside Out. I'd like to start with the title. Why that title?

Terrlyn [00:02:55]:

Because it's to the point. When you pick up that book, you know that this book is about what you can do to dismantle racism. It's a charge to the reader. We're doing this.

Meli  [00:03:06]:

And who do you see the audience as?

Terrlyn [00:03:09]:

Well, really, when I wrote the book, the audience was white people in the world who wanted to dismantle racism. When George Floyd was murdered. I had colleagues who were very angry, were very upset. They knew I had done this work in the past, and I had done it for years, and they wanted help. So the book was written to be able to help White folks really dig into ways in which they could dismantle racism. What I have found, though, that has been very helpful for people of color as well, particularly people of color who are doing the work of DEIB. Some of them will say, I didn't even know that I needed this work, and it is refueled and reenergized them in order to keep going to do this work. Because part of the issue that I have found with white people that I work with in trainings is that there's a start to doing this work, and then it's like, wow.

Terrlyn [00:04:09]:

This is too difficult. Another issue has come up, so I'm going to deal with the other issues rather than dealing with issues of racism. And so, really, the book It's about giving you the inspiration to keep going, and how do you keep going in the midst of all the other competing Injustices that exist in the world.

Meli  [00:04:29]:

You know, as I was reading and and again now, I'm thinking of other books about anti racism that I have read in the last several years. And one of the books that is coming to mind is white fragility. I remember one of the things she wrote in there was, is the issue relevant? Is the issues of racism, something that I as a white person, and I'm a white person so it applies to me as well, is this my issue? I found that a powerful thing. I think it's completely our issue. Unfortunately, in America, when we talk about race, we think, oh, well, you as a black person or African American, excuse me, or another person of color, that's a race, but we don't have a race? And I think this has been one of the eye opening I mean, it's sad that here in 2023, this is news, right, to a lot of people. But the awful murder of George Floyd kicked off for a lot of us this understanding of, Oh, wow. Okay. This is this continues to be a live issue.

Terrlyn [00:05:38]:

I think it's really important for your audience to know That there's also a difference between talking about race and talking about racism. And so we all experience Privileges or oppression based on race, based on the color of our skin. So it is important for us to acknowledge that race is both a positive thing, and it's a negative thing. And we all, again, either benefit or we are oppressed by the system. I think one of the fears for white people in terms of my interactions and trainings with white folks is really around being afraid that someone will say, well, you're a racist. And that keeps people from digging in, but it's really all of our issue. Because if I hurt, you hurt, ultimately. Right? So it's all of our issue to deal with.

Meli  [00:06:29]:

Thank you for making that distinction. That is so important. And I also wanna pick up on this note of the fear, the fear of speaking, really, the fear of making a mistake, the fear of adding harm or being foolish or sounding foolish. I'm sure you have a long list of the fears that you have seen in your training. It seems like a book like your book is partly to help people get over that fear. Is that a reasonable thing to say?

Terrlyn [00:07:01]:

Yes. That's a part of what I talk about in the book. But here's the thing. We have to confront our fears. We have to move forward courageously with anything that we do in life. So talking about race, dealing with race, standing up for racial inequity isn't any different. And just because I am an African American woman, it does not mean that I don't have some fears and concerns when it comes to talking about race. I mean, just like white people can lose their jobs for talking about this, if I worked for a corporation, I could lose my job or even just speaking out. There could be consequences for what I do, particularly as a black woman, as a as a woman who's out there and about talking, harm could come to me. I could say the wrong thing. And just because I teach I train people and I coach on this, it doesn't mean that I don't make a mistake. So one thing I want your audience to really understand is it's okay if you make a mistake. Do it afraid is what I wanna say. Just do it afraid. March forward. Do you think those people who marched in the Fifties and the sixties weren't afraid. They had dogs and hoses and all of that. So we have to just step outside of our comfort zone.

Meli  [00:08:19]:

Yeah. It's it's an ongoing challenge. Isn't it?

Terrlyn [00:08:22]:

Indeed.

Meli  [00:08:24]:

So I'd like to turn to this term you used in the book and actually the the title of your first book, Sacred Intelligence. Could you just briefly explain what that is, and is it learnable?

Terrlyn [00:08:38]:

Oh, indeed. But, actually, it's inherent, I think. Because sacred intelligence is about going deep within, going to your innermost part, to your divine wisdom so that you can hear the things that are relevant for you and for other people. It's about making choices that are intelligent and choices that are going to manifest your greatness while at the same time manifesting others' greatness. So it's not just about doing things that are me, me, me, But it's about making a choice that's gonna be really good for you. And when you do what you're called to do, when you are using your gifts, when you're using your strengths, it's going to help someone else. And so your sacred intelligence will tell you what you will allow other people to do to you. It will inform what you do to other people, and it will inform what you do to yourself. So it's really about manifesting your greatness.

Meli  [00:09:42]:

I appreciated the Venn diagram you have in the book that shows sacred intelligence as the center of 3 interlocking circles, sacred motive, selfish mindset, and shared movement.

Terrlyn [00:09:57]:

I see everything as our sacred, selfish, and shared relationships. Right? So that's what I talked about in my 1st book. So in my 2nd book, it's still all about those three relationships and why they're important in the work that we do.

Meli  [00:10:14]:

I think it's important when we talk about these things, when we reflect on them, to think about these different levels. So the self, the self in community, and the self in relationship to the divine. That's how I take what you're talking about.

Terrlyn [00:10:34]:

That's exactly it. That's exactly it. So for me, those 3 relationships are the most important. So that's why I talk about our sacred motive. When we're doing the work of dismantling racism, it starts with thinking about something much bigger than ourselves. Why do we want to engage in dismantling racism? For me, it's about my relationship with the sacred for someone else. For me, I call the sacred god, but usually in my writings, I refer to the entity as the sacred. For me, it's about understanding that I am a part of a bigger system, a bigger energy, a bigger thing called love, ultimately. And that If you are in harm's way and I help you, it's because of my connection. It's because of my faith, really, which is why I'm going to step out there and look beyond myself. So I talk about our sacred motive. When for many people in 2020, I think some people were just jumping on the bandwagon. It was horrible that George Floyd was killed, and I think people were angry and lots of things were happening. And so it was the thing to do. But if you're going to dismantle racism, it's about taking a look at yourself and thinking about your relationship to the divine, whatever that is. It could be your relationship to that tree if that tree is what's sacred to you. But how does that inform your work in the world? How do you show up based on what you say you believe and based on what you say your values are. So for me, I start from this place of sacred motive.

Meli  [00:12:16]:

And I think an important element in what you were just talking about, Terrlyn, is are you in it for the long haul? That this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Terrlyn [00:12:27]:

Absolutely. And if I may, I wanted to share even just a personal reflection. And I have been doing the work of dismantling racism since the nineties. Even in my work as a psychologist, I always work with inner City kids and I I really it's about making the world better for people who are oppressed. I've been doing trainings for years. But when I got called to the ministry, I thought, okay. My work now is wounds of religion and dealing with ministry. Well, I don't know if you will recall, but during the Obama administration, we would hear at least once or twice a month of young black men being killed. And my girlfriend said to me, Carolyn, you have to speak out about this. And I said, no. I have that's not my calling right now. My calling to wounds of religion, and I'm pastoring a church, and there was lots of crazy things going on in church. I said, that's not my calling. And she said, you are a leader. It absolutely is your calling. You were trained to do this work, and it doesn't stop just because you're called to something else in the moment. You must speak out. So I say that to say we all can get a little distracted and say because I deal with this all the time. So just because I'm not dealing with it on a formal basis. I'm still changing systems as it relates to racial equity. I just wasn't speaking out on a bigger platform, but she challenged me because she said, you are a person who knows how to do this. And once she did that, I actually did integrate it a bit more in my business even though I still worked on the wounds of religion. And then when 2020 happened, I really came from behind the scenes. It's like, okay. It never stopped. My message to your listeners is that There's a way to integrate it with every single thing that you do. And you may not be out in the streets protesting, or you may not have a radio show or all of these things, but there is something for you to do to integrate the work of dismantling racism so that we can create a world where racial equity exists for everyone.

Meli  [00:14:48]:

Amen to that. Being clear about where you are rooted, where you are situated, what is your identity, what is your voice, and what is your platform? How can you contribute to the conversation? These are really critical questions, and each one of us is going to come up, I think, appropriately with different answers to those and to be to be mindful of that. Where do we feel the passion, and what can we contribute in a positive way?

Terrlyn [00:15:25]:

Exactly. Exactly.

Meli  [00:15:27]:

Your book is titled Dismantling Racism. We've used that phrase already several times. But just a moment ago, you said racial equity. Is there a different feeling for you when you say dismantling racism versus racial equity?

Terrlyn [00:15:44]:

Well, I think they're closely related. Right? Because if you're going to dismantle racism is really making the world more equitable on a racial level. When we talk about dismantling racism, we're really tearing down systems. We're tearing down oppressive systems that have been in existence years. And in order for us to do that, we have to take a look at where things are imbalanced as it relates to education, health care, finances, and economics, all of those things. And when we level the playing field, when we are looking at equity in terms of providing for individuals who've not traditionally been given the same consideration as folks who are white, as folks who or white and wealthy or folks who are white and middle class and all that because poor white folks, I want to acknowledge, have a hard time in this country as well. But I don't wanna confuse the issues here because still poor white folks are still privileged in a way that blacks aren't. And so when I talk about equity, it is really about tearing down as well those system that are imbalanced. So they're closely aligned, and I don't think you can do one without doing the other.

Meli  [00:17:14]:

Quite. I just find myself thinking that, you know, as you say, the dismantling racism is, I would say, a completely necessary tearing down of harmful, very harmful systems and attitudes, unexplored biases, all of that with very long histories in our country. It seems to me that increasing racial equity is then a byproduct. Let's rebuild something that is helpful, that is respectful, that really honors the individual without this harmful coloring of racism.

Terrlyn [00:17:56]:

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yes. I would I would say that. So one of the things that's going through my mind as as we're teasing out the language with this. So if I think about dismantling racism. I am tearing down a system that's based on white as superior Because the backdrop of everything is based on white standards. So if we wanna change that, we begin to see that We all are contributing to this world, and it's not just the white history that matters. It's not just, white standards that matter. So that's changing a mindset. That's dismantling a structure to say that we should all be appreciated and valued. So that's taken down a structure. If I want to think about racial equity, I could use an example of equity would be if you and I went in to get a mortgage from the bank that my interest rate is the same as your interest rate with all else being equal. That's racial equity. And it happens to be tearing down a system at the same time because we're recognizing that there shouldn't be a difference based on color.

Meli  [00:19:10]:

On this dismantling racism. Is there a model for success that you see?

Terrlyn [00:19:17]:

I think success is continuing to put 1 foot in front of the other and working as hard as you can to dismantle racism. And I say that because this is daunting work. It is so daunting. And maybe that's why some people choose well, it's not maybe. That's why some people choose not to do this. Perhaps that's why I said, look. My focus is on wounds of religion and not doing this because I have to deal with Racism all the time in my own life, and I don't always wanna be out here talking about this, but I have to. And so the success is every day that you put 1 foot in front of the other to say I'm committed to doing this work even if you mess up. And that's the thing that's really important. You're going to mess up. That is really important, and this is why the book is healing separation from the inside out, is to examine your own stuff, to examine your why. So I used the term selfish earlier. And you know from reading the book The self-ish is about examining your own mindset. Instead of me comparing myself to you, compare myself to me and where I am at this point, and whether I believe it is possible for me to, be an advocate for racial and social justice, because what I tell myself makes all the difference in the world. And if I tell myself that success is only if I make some major change in my company or major change in my family or I go out here and write a book on it. If I tell myself that that's success, I will not live up to the bar, and I'll be fooling myself because I'll think that I've done all this great work and I don't need to do anything else. We don't want to do that. We want to do the best that we can. And I love in the book, I quote Arthur Ashe, Start where you are, use what you have, and do what you can. And maybe that's writing a letter to your newspaper about the language that they use. Maybe it's deciding that you're gonna take certain language out of your vocabulary. So that's success.

Meli  [00:21:41]:

And this issue of what are you comparing yourself to is so tightly tied to what's your goal. The way I think of it for myself is I wanna be the best me I can be. And that's my job. I'm not trying to be better than you. I'm trying to be the best me I can be. With that lens, each year I do it at my birthday just because it's a natural time of reflection. The question is, where am I now in relationship to last year at this time, what has happened in this intervening year. And here we are mid-December of 2023, and I know lots of people are heading into that time. Right? There's all kinds of annual reflection of how was the year and what do we wanna do next year. I think these calendars are helpful in that way. If you don't do the periodic reflection, it's very easy to get lost. You know, as you mentioned, it's long, hard work. It's easy to be distracted and it's easy to be discouraged.

Terrlyn [00:22:51]:

I really appreciate your example of that in terms of just reflecting. Because the other danger is, like I was saying a little bit before, is that, oh, yeah. I've done this great thing. Check. But when you reflect, you just said, and it was so beautiful. You just said, I look at where I was Last year this time, and where am I now? So if you've done the work of dismantling racism all year long and you do a reflection, you wanna say, now where can I push myself to go next? Right? How can I bring this into my organization? Can I bring this into my church? How can I bring it into my family and my community? And families are tough. Families are really tough, but thank you for for sharing that.

Meli  [00:23:42]:

Sure. So I wanna note a couple of the elements that I picked up in the book. We've already talked about kind of the why you, why now part. And I did appreciate you quoting from the Book of Esther. You were born for such a time as this. The other 3 that I wanted to note and kind of dig into is the issue of really experience and growing through the pain, mindset, the importance of mindset and how mindset then directs action. And thirdly, the emotion mostly about anger. So those are the 3 elements that I wanted to address. So let's take a moment on experience and growing through the pain. Can you say a few words about that?

Terrlyn [00:24:41]:

It is really important, and I know that that language can be triggering. Because I know that as a therapist, you can either stay stagnant. You can stay stuck in your pain, and it benefits no one. But if you choose to say, I'm going to continuously work on healing because healing doesn't happen overnight and and this work is all about the internal healing, I am going to continue to do what I must do to make my life better and to make the lives of others better. That's what I mean about Choosing to grow beyond the pain. Look. I grew up in Mississippi, and I grew up in the seventies. So you can imagine that wasn't that far removed from, what was happening in terms of civil rights and all of that. As a matter of fact, Martin Luther King was killed 45 minutes from where I grew up. I was 3 years old. It wasn't a horrible experience, but I grew up understanding the differences between White people and black people because, really, that's all there there was. You fell in one of those categories no matter what your your racial identity was at that point. And so I understand that I could have thought about how unfair things may have been, but that wasn't the community that I was raised in. I was raised in a predominantly African American community, but we had to interact with white people, and we had good relationships with them. We just knew where we stood. So what if I had chosen to say, oh, woe is me. This is the the plight of black people in this country. I would not be where I am today. And if you are a white person who has, been a part of oppression and you carry around guilt and pain and shame as a result of that. That serves no purpose. It doesn't help me. So figure out how do you grow from what has happened in your life, and how do you now use that In a way that's gonna dismantle racism. That's why the book is really about dealing with your own stuff, which might frighten some people. So maybe I say that, but but, really, that's really what the book is about. You have to deal with you before you can do anything else to help other folks.

Meli  [00:27:16]:

This is the airline instruction to put the oxygen mask on yourself first.

Terrlyn [00:27:22]:

That's exactly right.

Meli  [00:27:24]:

And I liked you had this acronym, BREATH. Breathe, Reflect, Engage, Adjust, Heal. I'd like to hear a little more about that.

Terrlyn [00:27:35]:

When we are emotionally charged, we actually stop breathing. And so I use that acronym intentionally because I wanna remind folks to breathe your way through the discomfort. And you will know, because you've read the book that I have a meditation in front of each chapter because I want people to be able to to ground themselves and to center themselves. And so with the acronyms, I really talk about the work still that you have to do in order to engage in this work. So I've used the example of taking a breath, right, but to reflect. What's coming up for you when you're having a conversation with someone? You you used the term white fragility before, but It's really important for people to say, is this my fragility, or is this issue really about the other person? That's the reflection, taking the time to look at what are your triggers. What are the words that are gonna set you off? What are the words that are gonna make you run? So that's really what that acronym is all about. And, of course, you know, people can get a free download of it, If they go to my website and just spend some time with it, it's really important to me that people continue to engage in the work. So even when it's Uncomfortable? Just stay with it. Stay with it and work through the discomfort. The important thing is is when we are engaged with this work, particularly when it's a conversation that we're having, other people know what your triggers are as well, So they know how to shut you down. I wanna just invite folks to take that moment to breathe and really kinda think about How you are going to engage in the work of dismantling racism. You know, a lot of people think that because they know a little bit about dismantling racism, that they can even have a conversation. And then some people think they could train other folks on how to do this just because they have some understanding. This work takes careful Nurturing and studying and understanding human behavior in order to do it. I've learned a lot in my over 20 something years of doing this work.

The way I started doing this work is very differently than How I do this work now. I use those acronyms on myself all the time because folks used to say some crazy things to me when I was doing this training, and I just feel my Blood dwelling. Rarely do I get angry while I'm doing the trainings, but I will say that there are some things that still are triggering because when people of color do this work, black people in particular do this work, it is an emotional journey for us. We may look like we're not having any issue or whatever. And I know how to manage it, But that doesn't mean there isn't any emotional toll that it's taken, so I have to remember to breathe as well.

Meli  [00:30:50]:

Yeah. So good reminder all around in all kinds of situations. I wonder about the faith source of that sort of exercise or reminder. Can you tell me about that?

Terrlyn [00:31:05]:

Everything I do is based on my faith. In the book, I talk about it being a sacred intelligence journey of faith. So it's not about the religion, about being Presbyterian, Christian, any of that. But it goes back to me being clear that I'm called, that we're all called for such a time as this to do this work. And so the faith practice for me, even in taking a breath, is to keep remembering My why so that I don't walk away, so that it becomes a part of the structure of everything that I do. I believe that if I say that I'm a Christian, if I say that I'm Jewish or Hindu or Muslim, whatever it is that I say that I am, Even if I have no religious belief but just a connection with something higher than myself, it is that faith of understanding that there's Something bigger than what we are looking at that guides us, that moves us, that compels us and impels us To move forward, that keeps me going. And that's why underneath everything that I write about, whether I write about it and I use the word sacred or not, It is my faith that's guiding me. So when I talk about taking a breath, I remember, for me, My breath is what connects me with divine wisdom, so it's inherent in everything that I do. There's no separation from me and the divine.

Meli  [00:32:41]:

Breath as a connection to the divine, to the sacred. I I say this understanding that you have used language and oriented the book to a broad audience, but you are a Christian and you're a pastor. I wonder when you think about that for yourself, who's the divine you're connecting with.

Terrlyn [00:33:05]:

Love. I can use the word God because I you know, as a pastor, I Preach, I talk about God all the time. I believe, ultimately, we are connected to an entity that is nothing but pure love. And I believe that each of us is loved unconditionally. It's about tapping into that love, though. The world has made us think something different, that we're less than for some reason. I believe that we're all connected with this divine love, and I believe that we're divinely created, created in the image of this love. I believe that there's a source much bigger than I that radiates that love. And it's almost like a power cord that I have to plug into so that I can continue to receive that love, and I can continue to be that love for other people. That's why for me, even though my identity as as a Christian, I fully accept other people and their way of understanding who their divine is. That's why you heard me use the example. If it's that tree out there, whatever it is that guides you and moves you to your highest level of consciousness, that's what I see a divineness, because the divine will never tell you to do anything that's going to hurt somebody else or to hurt yourself.

Meli  [00:34:32]:

Is that love coming into the dismantling racism? That's not something I saw in the book.

Terrlyn [00:34:40]:

It is inherent for me in everything that I do. When I'm training, when I'm coaching, whatever it is, I am coming from that place of love, and love tells me that I should not wound anybody else. So you referred to my 1st book on Sacred Intelligence. There's a scripture that I use. That's the premise of the sacred, selfish, and shared relationships, and it is you shall love the lord thy god with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Sacred, selfish, and shared. That's what those relationships are. Right? I live my life based on that principle. If I am going to dismantle racism, there's a way that I can do it in love. Now that doesn't mean that I don't get angry And that we shouldn't get angry because there's righteous anger as well. And that doesn't mean that you roll over, but there's a way That we can engage with folks in a loving way.

Meli  [00:35:41]:

Yeah. Fair enough. Let's shift to this next point I noted about mindset. I appreciated in the book you talked about the importance of being aware of your automatic thoughts, wanted to hear a little more about that.

Terrlyn [00:35:57]:

If I were to ask you, do you think that dismantling racism is possible. What would your response be? Automatically, don't think too much about it.

Meli  [00:36:09]:

Yes. But it's a long way off.

Terrlyn [00:36:12]:

I'm glad you said yes. Many people will say no, but will say they believe in social justice and racial equity. And even thinking about it being a long ways off will sometimes hinder people from doing the work. So the mindset is important for me to say, Yes. I do believe it's possible, and I'm going to do everything in my power to make it happen Even if I'm doing it for the next generation, I cannot tell you the number of times that people say, oh, White folks aren't gonna change. White people aren't gonna change. If you say that, it's like counteracting whatever actions you are going to take. So I talk about mindset because it is important to move us forward, and that comes from being a psychologist. The other thing is I think about mindset is that we think we're alone, that there's not enough people who are interested in doing this work, and I think that there are more of us than there are of those who don't want to do this work. And so even in the book, when I talk about the sacred intelligence journey faith is about having faith that other people are on this journey with us. It's also about having faith that we can do something, and that's the mindset piece. So for many white folks that I deal with, they'll say, but what can I do? I'm just 1 person. That's an automatic thought. If you were to change your automatic thought, you could say, well, what can I do as the individual that I am? What can I do with my gifts, skills and talents? What can I do at my neck of the world? That's a shift in mindset, because now you're shifting to problem solving as opposed to a defeatist attitude. I really invite people to kind of examine what your automatic: Oh, I'm too busy. I don't have time to do this. When really all you gotta do is incorporate. Right? Like a wonderful thing just just sort of thinking about the conversation we're having. You're dismantling racism right now by having a guest on, and you're talking about I'm sure there are other ways that you do as well because I've looked at some of your other guests that you've had on the show. Just by having different types of people on the show is dismantling a structure. That's what I mean when I talk about this selfish mindset. Going within, figuring out what you can do in your corner of the world.

Meli  [00:38:49]:

Part of that is understanding where your starting point is. Right? Learning, asking questions. And I liked your note in the book, listening for the wisdom so that this continual growth it's really it's a long process. Right? And I think that our work is well, we're very much in tandem. I think the umbrella work is bridging differences, understanding each other, breaking down un-reflected biases and misconceptions that really lead to hate or distrust or disengagement, distancing. We now turn to this last point I thought about, which is the righteous anger, but the complexity of what do you do with the anger. So I'd like to talk about that for a moment. I thought you were quite right in saying, you know, be focused well, these are my words. Be focused, be effective, and lean into healing. You wrote, yet anger, righteous as it may be, is ineffective unless it moves from acts of raw emotions to transformative and healing actions that can create a world where equity exists for all and move toward bridging the racial divide. So, again, I just say, amen to that. I wanna see if you had thoughts about that you wanted to add.

Terrlyn [00:40:19]:

I do think it's really critical for people to move from that place of anger, I think it's important to acknowledge that the anger is there. And if you can find healthy ways if you need to get out Some of that anger, get it out in a way that does not harm you or anyone else, then say, well, what are we going to do about this? Anger must lead to action steps. Otherwise, it festers inside of us, and we're the ones who are ultimately harmed as a result. I just wanna encourage people to let that anger move them into action.

Meli  [00:40:54]:

And that the anger is part of the very real struggle that they were in in doing this work.

Terrlyn [00:41:03]:

Yes. And I wanna invite people to really be truthful with themselves about why they're angry and then to take responsibility. It's okay to be angry about those things, about a system that duped you, but, also, what reflections do you need to do about yourself? When we examine our emotions, whatever those emotions are, that's what the reflection is. Let's not look side of ourselves. Yes. We can talk about the system. There's much to change. But if we do our internal work, Then, you know, we can address the system in the way that we need to.

Meli  [00:41:40]:

Yeah. Point well taken. It's really about taking responsibility for your action, inaction, anger, whatever. And as a leader, what what is your responsibility yourself and also for whatever group you are leading?

Terrlyn [00:41:59]:

If you want to lead and do this work, then you must examine yourself. It's just what we're called do. So I wanna encourage our listeners to to really see themselves as a leader in this work no matter what their status is in life.

Meli  [00:42:14]:

Again, you were born for such a time as this. Stepping into the moment when it seems appropriate. Okay. So we've said a lot of words, a lot of good words. Do you have any closing words for us today?

Terrlyn [00:42:32]:

My closing words really are the words of Arthur Ashe again. “Start where you are, use what you have, and do what you can”, because, really, we are all called for such a time as this. And if we all work together, we can dismantle racism.

Meli  [00:42:51]:

Amen. Well, Terrlyn, this has just been a wonderful conversation. So pleased that you came on to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. Really appreciate your work and your willingness to engage in the passion with which you do it.

Terrlyn [00:43:10]:

Thank you so much. Thank you. I so enjoyed having this conversation.

Meli  [00:43:20]:

To receive new episodes when they are released, hit the subscribe button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be sent directly to info@talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options. Go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. Thank you so much. Till next time.