Islamic Prophetic Persuasion – Abdur-Rahman Syed (summer rerelease)

Episode 72.  
After two-and-a-half years of consistent podcast production, I am taking a short break. To ensure you have something to listen to, I am re-releasing episodes. You are also welcome to look through the back catalogue and listen to other episodes you might have missed. Thanks as always for your interest and support.  

Today’s re-release is episode 53, featuring Abdur-Rahman Syed. Abdur-Rahman, a Muslim raised in Karachi Pakistan, he currently  lives in three countries, carrying the richness of his interreligious extended family and early experience of adjusting to various cultural environments. Fortified by these formative years and his years in marketing, Abdur-Rahman is creating a book called Prophetic Persuasion. Using words of four prophets from the Abrahamic faiths, he stresses the value of common messages through which people can influence others and establish a moral compass. In conversation, we explore the challenges of bringing such sources into the workplace and how to balance uniqueness of vision and need to find common ground among other things. 

 A note from my guest, Abdur-Rahman: “Meli and I approached our conversation with caution given the backdrop of the escalating Israel-Palestine war. I fear I was too cautious in distancing myself from the conflict. While some things are complex, others are simple. We must continue to seek dialogue while also speaking for justice and for peace.”


Highlights:

·       Prophetic Persuasion elements derived from biblical and Quranic prophets:  Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Mohammed

·       Framework: listen, give, connect, imagine, invite, love. 

·       Enriching lives and providing a moral compass in the business world 

·       Challenges of discussing faith in the workplace

·       Business application of the ‘Listen before you speak’ principle.

·       Risk of selectively interpreting scriptures and traditions

·       Different interpretations based on proximity to the source

Social Media links for Abdur-Rahman Syed:
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/abdurrahmansyed
Website – www.propheticpersuasion.org

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project
LinkedIn – Meli Solomon
Facebook – Meli Solomon


Transcript: 


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Transcript

Abdur-Rahman Syed

Islamic Prophetic Persuasion (summer re-release)

Méli [00:00:05]:

Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meili Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. 

After 2 and a half years of consistent podcast production, I am taking a short break. To ensure you have something to listen to, I am rereleasing episodes. You are also welcome to look through the back catalog and listen to other episodes you might have missed. Thanks as always for your interest and support. And now about today's episode. 

Today's re-release is episode 53 featuring Abdul Rahman Syed. Abdul Rahman is a business advisor and brand strategist. He is director of the Dubai based firm Algebra and has 19 years of corporate and consulting experience in the finance, technology, hospitality, education, and philanthropy sectors. He is a visiting faculty member at the Kerachi School of Business and Leadership, where he teaches management communication to MBA and EMBA students. He is also writing a book on prophetic persuasion and delivers corporate workshops on this subject.

Abdul Rahman holds a bachelor's degree in politics and religion from Harvard University with postgraduate study in political philosophy at the University of Chicago and Boston University. Originally from Karachi, he currently divides his time between Michigan, Dubai, and Karachi. His social media links are listed in the show notes. Hello, Abdul Rahman. Welcome to my Living Our Believes podcast. I'm so pleased to have you on today.

Abdur-Rahman [00:02:29]:

Hello, Meli. Thank you for having me.

Méli [00:02:32]:

We have many things that we want to talk about. I'd like to begin with my regular first question. What is your religious and cultural identity?

Abdur-Rahman [00:02:42]:

My religious identity is simple. I'm a Muslim, which is to say a servant of God and a follower of God's messengers. From Adam through Muhammad, and then we peace. The cultural identity piece is a little more complicated. Pakistan is my country of birth and nationality, but I have spent equal parts in Pakistan, the Middle East, and the United States. My kids live in Michigan, and I work in Dubai, so I split my year between the 2.

Méli [00:03:15]:

Were you brought up as a Muslim?

Abdur-Rahman [00:03:18]:

Indeed.

Méli [00:03:20]:

And what sect were you raised in, and is that still the sect you are a part of?

Abdur-Rahman [00:03:26]:

I was raised Sunni, and I consider myself Sunni. But more than that, I consider myself Muslim.

Méli [00:03:33]:

So is the sect not really such an important aspect for you?

Abdur-Rahman [00:03:38]:

When people ask me to identify myself, I I will say I'm Sunni as opposed to Shia because I think there are, you know, some meaningful differences there. But that's not my primary affiliation. And then sometimes people wanna press further. And then beyond, Sydney, I think it's it's less and less helpful.

Méli [00:03:53]:

I understand from earlier conversations that not only is your family with your children complex, but your family of origin, the extended family, is quite complex, and I'd like to hear a little about that.

Abdur-Rahman [00:04:10]:

Sure. I think we can think of this in in ways of migration, if you will. You know, South Asian history, you know, witnessed several partitions. So with the creation of Pakistan was the partition of India. My parents were born in in what is today India and then migrated at different points in their life. My father was 9. He migrated from India to Pakistan, and he's never been back. He's 78, 79 today, and has never been back to his, you know, place of birth.

Abdur-Rahman [00:04:40]:

My mother migrated when she was a college student or shortly shortly after her university studies. So that's the first wave. We grew up in Pakistan. So the second wave would be, you know, when my siblings and I went to college abroad in the US, and then each of us settled in the Middle East. And then perhaps a 3rd wave would be when, my children moved with their mother from Dubai to Michigan, and I'm sort of thinking about how to follow them here.

Méli [00:05:10]:

Since this is a podcast about your faith path, your personal faith path, I'm curious about how the waves really the wave for you in your upbringing has affected your sense of identity and your practice as a Muslim?

Abdur-Rahman [00:05:29]:

Well, I think even growing up in Pakistan, I didn't have a typically Pakistani experience, by which I mean that, sometimes my American friends will say I don't have an accent. And I have to remind them it it's an American accent, which is odd in Pakistan, but it's a function of having attended an American overseas school. And when I grew up in Pakistan already, displaced is too strong a word, but I had a sense of other places while going to school in an American bubble within a very Pakistani city. So this sense of, you know, multiple identities, I think I've I've carried with me, from Pakistan, to the US, to the Middle East and back. A friend of mine, you know, called me a hybrid, and I think that's a good word. It's a privilege, I think, to be able to see things from more than 1 perspective. I think we have certain limits. We can only inhabit so many perspectives, but it's nice to have more than 1.

Méli [00:06:25]:

Some of those countries have larger Muslim populations than others. And in terms of your religious identity, have you found that you inhabit your religion or you practice it differently, you view it differently somehow when you're in these different places?

Abdur-Rahman [00:06:45]:

Of course. III think that's necessarily the case. In particular, regardless of your religion, I think people of faith will feel a difference if they're in the minority as opposed to the majority. Sometimes when you're in the majority, you take your faith for granted, and so do others. When you're in the minority, such as when a Pakistani student moves to the US, there's almost a choice that he or she has to make whether to dissolve into the new majority or to assert or reassert what is different and and worth preserving about their particular cultural, but yes, also religious identity. I know, for example, what I miss most when I'm in the states is the adhan or the call to prayer. It's truly a part of everyday experience in a place like Dubai or Karachi, or you don't feel the lack of it unless you're in a place like DC or Detroit.

Méli [00:07:42]:

1 of the things that I just like to note before we go deeper into what you're involved with is the current situation, the current war between Israel and Hamas. Neither of us are of those cultures. I am not Israeli, though I am Jewish. You are not Palestinian, although you are a Muslim. So in certain ways, we inhabit these 2 sides, and yet it's not our issue. So I just wanted to, you know, briefly note that while this is not a political show and we're not going to get into that issue, it is the background, the context in which we are speaking. And I and I wanted to acknowledge that. I also want to acknowledge that I, and I believe you, abhor the violence and the attacks on innocent civilians.

Méli [00:08:36]:

It can really be challenging to have an inter religious conversation when these sorts of events are going on. So III just wanted to acknowledge that and give you an opportunity to say something about it if you'd like.

Abdur-Rahman [00:08:57]:

Thank you, Millie. I I think it's difficult to ignore, what's going on, and to leave it out of the conversation would feel wrong. I like the words you used, complex, challenging, and the need to acknowledge even if we don't represent or, you know, advance any particular political, statements or prescriptions. I think it's appropriate that the conversation is not about politics, but politics and religion are are both connected and distinct. But I'm not a political activist, and I'm not a community leader, and this is, I think, not the place to represent a particular point of view, except to acknowledge that, you know, these things are not simply part of the background, but part of, you know, sort of the texture of who we are. I think the loss of innocent life is is painful, as is prejudice, as is dislocation, as is occupation. So acknowledging that pain, and then choosing nonetheless to speak to 1 another, I think, are appropriate choices.

Méli [00:10:05]:

Yes. Thank you for those words. And to do so within the context of this Living Our Beliefs podcast, which is itself within my larger Talking With God project. All of this is really about bridging differences, primarily religious difference. But as we've noted already in in your case, it brings along also a cultural difference living in various countries, all of that. It's, you know, our identities are unique and complex. So this particular conversation has heightened value as an opportunity to bridge some of these differences and to seek to understand more. You know, I approach all of this work from an attitude of curiosity with an open heart and a curious mind.

Méli [00:11:03]:

And that is how I am approaching this conversation. When I think about you and your work, part of your expression is prophetic persuasion. And this is what I'd like to turn to now. As I understand it, prophetic persuasion is a book you are currently writing, and the subject of talks and workshops that you lead. So first of all, I wanna make sure that I understand that correctly.

Abdur-Rahman [00:11:33]:

I would amend that only to say that prophetic persuasion is a book in my mind. My day job is as a as a consultant. I run a small consulting firm in Dubai. We advise clients on strategy, communication, and branding. So professionally, I am a marketer. And as a personal interest, it has been a question of pursuit, is how can we communicate more effectively, but also from a moral center? So Prophetic Persuasion is a book that I would like to write a book in my mind that I've already done some research on and have thought about and written about and talked about. As I see it, it's a business book. I think in the vein of, if I can use some popular examples, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People or How to Win Friends and Influence People, a business book for a mainstream audience of people of faith or no faith, and yet from a spiritual perspective.

Méli [00:12:33]:

I'd like to start then with the title. What does prophetic persuasion mean for you?

Abdur-Rahman [00:12:40]:

1 way to explain things is to just look at the individual words. So persuasion is influence. It's communication with the intention to influence somebody or to inspire or affect a particular outcome. Prophetic persuasion is to influence people in such a way that you don't treat them as data or products or resources. Right? So in the business world, users are data. Clients are products, and, you know, employees are resources. If I can say more about the prophetic as opposed to moral piece, because prophetic says a little more than than moral, and I made the case for moral. If we look at the biblical prophets and the Quranic prophets, What can we glean from the words in the lives of the messenger of God in the Abrahamic tradition that, we could then employ in our personal and professional lives.

Méli [00:13:38]:

So you are tapping into the prophecies of Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Mohammed. Yes?

Abdur-Rahman [00:13:50]:

Those 4 figures are of particular interest to me. Not only because, yeah, you know, of their following among the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic faiths, but also because of the amount of material that we have on them. If you look just at the Quran, there is more on Moses than there is on Mohammed. There is an entire chapter on Joseph which tells his story, you know, really from beginning to end as it were. And, of course, there's a whole religion built around the words and teachings of Jesus on the many piece. And I think if we were to study how they spoke to people and how they inspired change, in in today's words, we might say they were influencers, and they were influencers of the highest order. And yet because they were people of God, they necessarily, you know, spoke from a higher ground. And it it it behooves us to see how is it that they were able to convince people without manipulating them, without treating them, again, in business terms, as products or data or resources.

Abdur-Rahman [00:14:52]:

It's not the prophecies per se. We use the word prophet because at least in the in the Bible, the prophets are known for their prophecies. Right? But I use the word prophets or the word messengers interchangeably for people who brought God's message to his people, whether or not we're looking at specific prophecies that they made. Sometimes the word prophecy makes people think of, oh, what do they predict about the future? And and that's not the that's not the focus of my work.

Méli [00:15:18]:

That is exactly how I see prophecies. So I feel like we need to rewind just a bit to make sure that we're clear about this.

Abdur-Rahman [00:15:27]:

Sure.

Méli [00:15:28]:

I also am mindful just as as you were speaking that the words of these 4 figures are being filtered through your Islamic lens. That's as it should be. And it's just I'm really struck by the figures that are included because, you know, from my Jewish perspective, these are not the names I would I would identify. And I'm sure if we had a Christian in this conversation, that Christian would have yet a a third different list. So how did you land on these 4?

Abdur-Rahman [00:16:09]:

It's really a pragmatic choice based on the sources and literature available to us. So there is a lot of literature about how Jesus spoke to his disciples. Right? It's in the Quran, but, you know, more than the Quran, it's in the New Testament. Right? There is more literature on Moses, as I mentioned, in the Quran than there is about Muhammad. And again about Joseph, because we have so much material about his life story. Certainly, you know, Abraham, you know, has a status as a father in our tradition, in essay our our joint tradition, that can't be ignored. And Adam has the status as the father of the human family. So the the I I don't mean anything canonical or theological by it.

Abdur-Rahman [00:16:51]:

It's, it's a question of what are the what's the source material available? And if I could say more certainly, you know, I am particularly interested in in God's final messenger, Muhammadan, MB Peace. He also happens to have the most that's been written about himself from both a personal and a pragmatic perspective. He is an obvious choice. I'm not worried about drawing from biblical sources in addition to, you know, the Quran and the commentary on the bible or the Quran because I don't have something theological in mind. My my question is, I think, easier because we're looking at people who have the following in common, that they are broadly speaking carriers of a of a common message, and they have taken it upon themselves to preach that message to people who may not wanna hear that message. So how are they able to win followers, allies, and converts is a common challenge as communicators and influencers, all the while having this moral compass that they can't stray from. And maybe I can share an anecdote to convey the point. But, really, how is it that prophet Muhammad dealt with a person in a particular situation? How is it that prophet Jesus dealt with a particular situation as it confronted him? And what can we learn from that in our own communication, not in our faith commitments, not in our political commitments, but when we seek to influence the people in our own professional personal lives.

Abdur-Rahman [00:18:24]:

What can we learn from them that we can use ourselves?

Méli [00:18:27]:

Thank you for that. I'd like to shift to really the guts as it were of this book in your mind? I understand that there is a framework. So could you lay that out for us and then we'd get deeper into that?

Abdur-Rahman [00:18:43]:

Sure. So 1 way to convey the framework is in the form of 6 simple rules or principles of prophetic persuasion. I don't mean 6 principles in the sense of 10 10 commandments that they're found in the Bible and the Quran in a particular passage. But simply from my work, I'll be able to glean these principles that I think nonetheless fit together in a particular way. The first of these is to listen before you speak. The second is to give before you take. The third is to connect with me by identifying something that you and I have in common that is otherwise uncommon. The 4th is to imagine a better world.

Abdur-Rahman [00:19:26]:

The 5th is to invite me into that world or to help you cocreate it. And the 6th is to love me and wish me well. So it's listen, give, connect, imagine, invite, and love.

Méli [00:19:43]:

And you have derived these 6 words, these 6 expressions from the 4 prophets?

Abdur-Rahman [00:19:53]:

From the material available on these prophets in scripture or in commentary on the scripture.

Méli [00:20:01]:

This is a unique perspective that you're proposing, which I really appreciate because I think the world needs unique perspectives. But in hearing this description and reflecting on what you said earlier about it being a business book, your work in marketing, the title itself, which seems completely appropriate. I'm I'm struck by this commingling, maybe a word for it, of the business world, which you and I are both very familiar with, and the world of religion, the world of faith. This can be really energizing. It can be really supportive and helpful, and Lord knows the business world could use all the moral compass it can get. But the thing in terms of business that then comes up is the expression of either workplace spirituality or faith at work. These are the terms. They come absolutely out of a Christian perspective.

Méli [00:21:06]:

My understanding is particularly Protestant. Given your situating of this book and you know, the workshops, talks, etcetera, within a business and I imagine corporate setting, how do you see it? Do you see that absolutely boldly? What is the response? Are people saying, oh, yes. Absolutely. This is a clear element in the work setting, or do you couch it somehow so the the religious element is not so strong? This is this is what I wonder about. Could you address that?

Abdur-Rahman [00:21:45]:

Sure. I'm hearing 2 questions in your question. Would I place this within the faith at work or bringing your full self to work genre, you will. And and I don't know the genre well enough to speak authoritatively on the genre except to say sometimes when we speak about people of faith, we speak of them as a demographic. Right? So in the business world, we are very interested in demographics because then we can market to people based on those demographics. And if you go too quickly down that road, what you end up with is thinking of faith at work or diversity, equity, and inclusion, to use another term, as a way of being more inclusive to people who come from different perspectives, which I think is a an idea that has a lot of merit. But I think it is limited in the way that it limits the value of that conversation to demonstrating your inclusion of people from different perspectives. If you have a workplace or a university that has a chapel for Muslims, then the Jewish students will say, well, what about our space? And the Muslim students will say, what about our space? And the Buddhist students will say, what about our space? And so on and so forth.

Abdur-Rahman [00:23:05]:

And and this idea can quickly become, well, let's give each group their space to make sure that we, you know, are inclusive of everybody, which again is is great. But that's a particular way of looking at it, which I think is is is more limiting. What what I have in mind is is something slightly different, which is that how can we articulate principles, some of which may come from philosophy, some of which may come from culture, but some of which may come from religion? How can we bring those principles into a common vocabulary that we can all embrace and benefit from so that it's not simply including including multiple points of view and accommodating and marketing to multiple demographics, but it's actually enriching our lives as a whole. Examples of that, I think, for me that are more pertinent are Alcoholics Anonymous. AA has been valuable from everything that I hear to a lot of people that come from a lot of backgrounds, Christian or otherwise. And yet it's no secret that it's originally your Christian framework, but it's made accessible in a way that you don't have to share those faith commitments to benefit from it. Mister Rogers, I think, is another example. I I learned only relatively recently after his passing that he was, I believe, a minister and that he doesn't bring that at least explicitly.

Abdur-Rahman [00:24:31]:

I'm sure it informed his work, but he made a conscious decision at some point that his programming was for everybody, and yet it didn't come from no place at all. It came from a very particular space. So I think those are 2 examples, and and we I could think of some others to prove the point that something can be spiritually rooted or spiritually centered. It can come from 1 faith tradition or more than 1 in the case of the Abrahamic traditions and nonetheless be framed in such a way that it can be of benefit to all of us. And and that's, I think, more of what I have in mind for for this particular topic of prophetic persuasion. Would you like me to answer the second question that I thought you asked?

Méli [00:25:12]:

Oh, right. Yes.

Abdur-Rahman [00:25:14]:

How is this received when I try to mix business with religion doc? To bring the 2 together can lead to some interesting results. You know, in in practice, what I've had to do is I've had to practice the first rule, which is to listen before you speak. And I've had to be very careful and deliberate about how to use the framework depending on, you know, the audience to whom I'm speaking. I've used this framework with corporate clients. I've used this framework with public audiences. I've used this framework in business school. And depending on who the audience is, I will call it prophetic persuasion, or I'll call it persuasion at work. Because what I don't want is I don't want the the frame, prophetic persuasion, to get in the way of the message.

Abdur-Rahman [00:26:04]:

And the other way in which I would adjust that is the principles are the same because they come from this common source. But then the examples that I use, for each of the 6, it might be I I use 3 examples from scripture and 1 from business for 1 audience, but I might use 1 from scripture and 3 from business for another audience. So, yes, of course, it varies, and the reception has varied, but I've been able to, I think, communicate the ideas if I'm attentive to, you know, the audience, and I'm able to adjust how I communicate that accordingly.

Méli [00:26:38]:

Yeah. It's interesting that you actually are using different titles. So it's either prophetic persuasion or persuasion at work.

Abdur-Rahman [00:26:47]:

There's a marketing reality. Right, when you're selling something, and this is part of persuasion. You have to know who your buyer is. And when it comes to the business world, you won't have a chance to talk to people about this without going through, you know, HR or procurement, whoever and no 1 has been given the mandate. Oh, can you find a speaker on prophetic persuasion? Because that doesn't exist. Alright. Can you find a a speaker on persuasion? Okay. Can we do communication training? Yes.

Abdur-Rahman [00:27:18]:

So if if I'm, you know, someone in HR or learning and development or procurement, and I've been tasked with this job of identifying vendors or suppliers or trainers or consultants in the field of communication, then this is going to, you know, show up on my radar. But prophetic persuasion, you'll be like, that's interesting. I might read a book on that on my side, but clearly, this is not what the boss wants. Alright? So you don't get a chance to to win over an audience, because you first have to, you know, think of the of the buyer's decision. It's a very pragmatic I do prefer prophetic persuasion, and I'm more interested in writing a book on prophetic persuasion than persuasion at work. But I think there are other ways to get at the same ideas.

Méli [00:28:01]:

What inspired you to write this book?

Abdur-Rahman [00:28:05]:

I just thought of something from my if not first job out of college, second job out of college. So now more than a year out of college, I'm working at HSBC, which is a global bank in Dubai in their Islamic finance, head office. And my desk is it literally touches the office of the CEO And my senior colleague, Keith Driver, from Philadelphia walks by, and he sees among my books on my desk, the Mars Engles reader. If you've gone to college in the US, you would recognize this bright red book. You can spot it from a mile away. And he said, Abdul Rahman, what are you doing? You're a banker. What do you do with the Marchingles reader on your desk? And and I think that for me is an early reminder that, you know, the world of business is a great place. But very often, the way that we do business carries with a certain set of principles that we don't always pay attention to or question.

Abdur-Rahman [00:29:06]:

And if you begin to question, then you also consider alternative possibilities. For someone, not necessarily from Marxist perspective, although I think we can have that conversation, but someone from, let's say, a non capitalist perspective or someone from a faith perspective to, you know, work in a capitalist business organization is to either adopt or to question the underlying economic principles that go into that work. You don't have to go very far down that road to think, okay. If I'm marketing in a particular way, what does that mean about the people that I'm marketing to, and what does that mean about me? And if I've been given this bag of, you know, tips and tricks, do I really wanna use these? There's another image that comes to mind. You know, a typical beer ad in the US will end with the cautionary note, drink responsibly. But that drink responsibly doesn't undo, right, the message of the app. Steen cynically, it's a hand waving gesture. And the well, the marketing is saying, okay.

Abdur-Rahman [00:30:08]:

We're gonna give you these principles. Just use them responsibly. So you're left to, use principles that can be misused that are not within a particularly moral framework. They're an amoral framework. So you're free to use them or misuse them as you like. And for a person of faith, I think it's useful to ask, well, is there a moral framework? Is there a better way? Could I be doing this differently? If again and again I have to ask myself, really? Maybe? Maybe not? And so that I think was the starting point, some years ago about the curiosity of this subject.

Méli [00:30:46]:

Yeah. Interesting. I was wondering if part of it had come out of working in some kind of interfaith situation, but I'm not hearing any of that.

Abdur-Rahman [00:30:58]:

It's funny you should ask about interfaith. I think I sort of brought that to the question. That wasn't the question I was trying to answer. The question I was trying to answer is, as a marketer, how can I market from higher ground? The the interfaith bit, you know, is is also relevant, not to why I began down this road in thinking about the subject, but simply, this goes a little back to family history. So I I married into a Christian family. My ex wife is Muslim, but her parents are not. My brother married into a Jewish family. His wife is Muslim, but her parents are not.

Abdur-Rahman [00:31:32]:

Alright? And sometimes, you know, when I think about speaking to people, I think of, you know, my in laws or his. That's part of our family history, and that's, you know, part of the context in which I've lived, and we've covered that. So, certainly, you know, when I think about faith, I I think of Islam and I think as a Muslim, but I also think of other religions and particularly Christianity and Judaism.

Méli [00:31:59]:

Yeah. Interesting. And it helps to clarify really how this book in your mind is is situated. What does writing the book mean for you and your faith path?

Abdur-Rahman [00:32:13]:

I think of myself as Muslim using slightly different vocabulary than I did earlier in my life. I'll I'll give you 1 very specific example. When you asked me what my my religious identity is, right, growing up my religious identity very clearly because the testament of faith is very clear or the testimony of faith is very clear. Being Muslim is as simple as there is no god except god, and Muhammad is the messenger of god. That's a very clear cut answer to what it means to be Muslim. But if someone asked me now, I would think not only of Mohammed, but I would think of the line of messengers from the same god with the same message. So I have sort of a broader conception of what it means to be Muslim than than I had when I was younger, and hence, following the messages of god Adam Thakram. Does that change the content of my beliefs? I I don't think so, but I I do think speaking of it or thinking of it in a different way changes something.

Méli [00:33:13]:

As someone who really dislikes proselytizing, I'm absolutely allergic to it. I'm having quite a conflicted response, just my emotional internal response to your book. And this is what I'm wrestling with in our conversation. I absolutely align with this question of living according to your morals, being authentic in that way, and coming to work as your whole self. Very supportive of that. But I do find myself going back to this question of how does faith show up at work and how do we both embrace the wholeness of people while accommodating the diversity. I think this is an ongoing challenge. And,

Abdur-Rahman [00:34:13]:

you know,

Méli [00:34:14]:

as we've acknowledged, this work you're doing is coming absolutely out of an Islamic perspective because you are a Muslim.

Abdur-Rahman [00:34:23]:

I wanna go further. I think, it may be even harder, but also in a sense easier, than you mentioned. And the word allergic is, I think, a very good word in this context because, an allergy provokes an immediate reaction, which really doesn't give you the opportunity for further conversation. So that that I think is definitely a risk. And certainly, if you were to see a book in a bookstore called Prophetic Persuasion, it would select its own audience. Right? There are people who would be drawn to it, and there'll be people like, no. Thank you. And that's okay.

Abdur-Rahman [00:35:00]:

But it is to acknowledge that it's it is provocative, and I think personally provocative. The sense in which it's it's more difficult, I think, even than than you're saying goes back to what we talked about earlier, which is to say, the way I would have it, it's not only a matter of accommodation or multiple perspectives. Because then at least you can say, while we have the chapel for the Christians and we have the temple for the Jews and then we have the mosque for the Muslims, we got a little thing for everybody. Just stay in your box. Alright? And sometimes, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion does go in that direction. We'll give you the high holidays. We'll give you Eid, and we'll give her Christmas. As long as it adds up to x number of days, we can figure it out because it's a matter of accommodation.

Abdur-Rahman [00:35:40]:

I'm not asking you to celebrate Christmas, and I wouldn't want you to. Alright? You're not asking me to celebrate Passover. Right? We're not forcing these on 1 another. We're simply asking for accommodations. And I think, in a sense, I'm aiming for more than that, which makes it more challenging, which is to say, whatever principles that we have at work, including marketing, come from somewhere. They didn't emerge in a vacuum. It's just that we sort of forgotten about the roots of those. So that's the way in which is more telling me that force is not the word that I mean, but I but I do want to speak in a human and universal way about principles that anyone could adopt, which is why I think, like, AA and mister Rogers are are relevant examples.

Abdur-Rahman [00:36:22]:

The sense of which I think gets this little easier is that certainly from a scriptural perspective, certainly from a spiritual perspective, this is why I've been careful about the vocabulary, We don't have to read the bible. We don't have to read the Quran to decide whether or not we agree with these principles. Right? To listen before you speak, that for an intelligent person can stand on its own. It comes from somewhere, and everything, as as I've tried to develop it, may fit together, but it has to be for it to be sort of adopted by people of different faiths and people of no faith. It has to be in a more universal and more accessible vocabulary, which people can can accept or reject on their own terms. 1 thing that we haven't done, which you might like is if I share an example of here's an anecdote. Alright? And then here's how we can apply that anecdote very simply to a business perspective.

Méli [00:37:17]:

Yeah. Sure.

Abdur-Rahman [00:37:18]:

Okay. So, we spoke about 6 rules. If I were to share an anecdote on the first rule, from the life of of prophet Muhammad. I'm thinking of when he was relatively new in his mission as a prophet. So very brief background, he was born into a city called Mecca, which is now known as a Muslim city, but at that time was a pagan city even though it was founded by Hagar and Ishmael from Abraham's family. When he was preaching his message, because it was winning converts from disaffected members of the population, it threatened the status quo, and it was particularly unpopular with the elite. So this story is about a man named Utba, who is 1 of, you know, a a high status person among the pagan Lita Makkah who decides to go negotiate with this man named Mohammed, who's preaching this message, which they would rather, you know, he not. So he says to his peers, you know, why don't I go offer him some things to see if he can leave us alone? And they say, okay.

Abdur-Rahman [00:38:23]:

So he walks over to the prophet. He sits down, and he begins to offer him whatever, you know, Mohammed might might want in the way of wealth or kingdom or a beautiful life. And Muhammad's response here, I think, is instructive. He says, have you finished? To which when Mutba confirms, yes. I have. He says, then listen to what I have to say. He then proceeds to share certain verses from the Quran, which as a native Arabic speaker, Utbah, although he's not a believer, finds striking so compelling and overwhelming, in fact, that he walks away, goes back to his peers, and tells them to leave this man alone. What I like about this anecdote or what I find instructive about this anecdote in the field of communication is how the prophet structured the conversation.

Abdur-Rahman [00:39:12]:

It was very strategic. He knew who was approaching him. He knew that he was unpopular with the elite, and this was a member of the elite likely telling him to go away. Given that this was his mandate during his mission and his vocation, I I think it would clear to the prophet that he wouldn't be accepting whatever was being offered to him, but he didn't interrupt him. She let Utba go first. And not only did he let Utba speak, he sort of confirmed it, almost sealed it by asking explicitly, are you done? When Utba's fully heard, what what you've done as the communicator is that you've locked someone into a reciprocal relationship. So Utbah didn't come to hear from the prophet, but he gave the prophet his audience so much so that he was sort of convinced, not to be Muslim, but at least to leave the prophet alone and to tell his peers to do that. So this for me is an illustration of listen before you speak and has multiple benefits that I would go into with this teaching session.

Abdur-Rahman [00:40:12]:

You might ask, well, what does this have to do with business? When I discussed this in business school, the example that that came up in conversation with my students, and and I think you would relate to this, is imagine someone has either in office hours and a student wants their time, or at work, you're a manager and your team member wants their time. And maybe, let's say, it's 20 minutes before you wanna clock out. They're coming in with something, and you have something you wanna tell them. So you could assert your authority, alright, as a professor or a manager and say, hi, Jane. I'm glad you came in. Let's talk about this. Jane's not gonna listen to you because she has something for which she came to you. If you're more strategic about it, in those 20 minutes, you might instead say, Jane, lovely to see you.

Abdur-Rahman [00:40:57]:

There is something I wanna talk to you about. Since we only have 20 minutes, why don't you go first? In fact, if you would take 12 minutes, I'll save the last 8 for me. I've acknowledged that you have something that you wanna talk to me about. I've been generous to allocate you more time, but I've locked yourselves in a relationship so that you now have no choice but to hear what I have to say once I've heard what you have to say. So that's a sort of straightforward business application of what is originally a a prophetic principle.

Méli [00:41:28]:

As I understand your approach, you are using words of tradition making them more accessible. You talked about a more accessible vocabulary. The question is, are you watering down these words, these messages in the process? And or are you co opting 1 tradition, 1 religious heritage, the roots as you spoke of, in the process of applying it to, in your case, the business community?

Abdur-Rahman [00:42:08]:

I think there's a methodological problem. I'm not taking a scripture or a text and coming up with an authoritative interpretation of the text. I'm not even taking a whole tradition and trying to surface the most important moral lessons from that tradition. I'm working backwards. I'm speaking as a modern, alright, who is the beneficiary of a series of texts and related traditions. And as a business person, knowing that I have a certain set of problems that I wanna solve, and I'm looking for resources, there is a risk, I think, of maybe proposing certain interpretations over others because they cohere with our own views just as moderns or as, you know, workers in the business world. If I see something about diversity, I'm more likely to highlight that because there's there's an overlap between my values as a modern worker in a capitalist workplace and what the scripture happens to say.

Méli [00:43:09]:

And, honestly, I I wrestle with this stuff. Right? This is this is absolutely not an accusation. It's just you've raised something that I wrestle with in general because I deeply respect traditions, but I also value diversity and encountering other ways. 1 of the examples that that I see is yoga. Right? Yoga has a deep spiritual, I might say religious, set of roots with a particular history. I wrestle with this because I recognize the deep roots, and I am concerned that Americans in particular are skimming off the elements of yoga without understanding, acknowledging, or appreciating the deep particular roots. I understand that it has benefited many, but I struggle with the superficial application.

Abdur-Rahman [00:44:24]:

Yeah. I think something similar can be said of rooming, who's popular among people who, you know, may not be interested in where he was coming from, at least, you know, in his time and and faith.

Méli [00:44:36]:

I don't know what to do with this, except I struggle. Right? And this is this is part of my Jewish tradition is is to wrestle.

Abdur-Rahman [00:44:45]:

Now this is a fascinating topic. I so what you're saying can be said about Rumi. It can be said about Sufism. It can be said about Kabbalah and so on and so forth. Can I share an image that just came to mind? I remember in chemistry class, there was something like where in a particular liquid, if you were to dip in a paper towel, The different elements in that liquid will travel to varying degrees given the density of the molecules. So the smaller molecules will travel further, and the larger molecules will travel a shorter distance. For me, that's a metaphor for you know, if you're connected to the source, people closer or further away from that source will, you could say, more or less authentic. If we could jump off the paper towel, I think we'd have to appreciate that if you have a source of inspiration and meaning, people will take it to varying degrees, and it will look different.

Abdur-Rahman [00:45:36]:

And is that okay? Maybe I'm too far to say that's okay, but I think that happens. And I don't think that you can avoid that, certainly not in a in a plural world and certainly not over the course of history. So is the book not gonna be Abrahamic enough? Maybe. Is it gonna be not be Islamic enough? Maybe. Is it gonna be of practical use, to people in a way that also acknowledges the value and role of religion in public life? I I certainly hope so.

Méli [00:46:05]:

Well, that is the fascinating creative journey that you have embarked on, and I certainly look forward to watching you move through that process and seeing the end result. So this has been a fantastic conversation. We do need to bring it to a close. Final question. How can people learn more about you and your work?

Abdur-Rahman [00:46:31]:

You can find me on LinkedIn And for my developing work on prophetic persuasion, you can go to prophetic persuasion.org.

Méli [00:46:41]:

Okay. And I will certainly also put those links in the show notes. Well, Abdul-Rahman, this has been just a delightful conversation. Thank you so much for coming on my living our beliefs podcast. I've really enjoyed it, and I certainly wish you all the success in the world.

Abdur-Rahman [00:47:02]:

Thank you, Meli. Thank you for having me. Thank you for asking your questions, presenting your challenges, and and being present for the conversation.

Méli [00:47:12]:

Thank you for listening. If you'd like to get when new episodes are released, hit the subscribe button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be sent directly to info@talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. Thank you so much. Till next time. Bye bye.