Honoring and Challenging Jewish Orthodoxy – Dr. Lindsay Simmonds

Episode 66. 
Lindsay shares her experiences as an Orthodox Jewish woman, discussing her deep engagement with Orthodox Judaism, the challenges and frustrations she faces within her community, and her efforts in advocating for women's inclusion and agency in religious practices. This is a fitting conversation during the Jewish holiday of Passover, with its themes of journeys, change, and relationship with God. Also, one of the key elements of the Passover Seder just held around the world, is asking questions. Lindsey, in her ongoing Jewish study, teaching, and earlier doctoral work, is dedicated to asking questions and seeking the answers from within her British Orthodox perspective. Her lifelong passion for studying the Jewish sacred texts, as well as decades spent on increasing Orthodox women’s engagement with that material testify to the richness of these texts, and the value of using your knowledge to effect change, however long it takes.

Highlights:
·       Lindsay's diverse roles and influences
·       Women's agency in Orthodox Jewish communities
·       Fulfillment and commitment to faith through Torah study
·       Teaching and leading study groups
·       Evolution of Social Norms and Halakhic Decisions
·       Engagement with Orthodox learning, feminism, and at the London School of Jewish Studies
·       Struggles and frustrations faced by women in the Orthodox community

Social Media links for Lindsay: 
London School of Economics & Political Science (LSE), Religion & Global Society Unit (RGS) – https://www.lse.ac.uk/rgs 

London School of Jewish Studies (LSJS) – https://www.lsjs.ac.uk/ 

Abraham Initiatives, UK – https://abrahaminitiatives.org/taiuk/

Council of Christians & Jews – https://ccj.org.uk/about-us 

Midreshet Lindenbaum (Seminary) – https://www.midreshet-lindenbaum.org.il/

Nisa-Nashim – https://www.nisanashim.com/

Nishmat (Seminary) – https://nishmat.net/

 
Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271


Transcript: 


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Transcript

Dr Lindsay Simmonds transcript
Honoring and Challenging Jewish Orthodoxy

Méli [00:00:05]:

Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meili Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. This is episode 66 and my guest today is doctor Lindsay Simmonds. This is a fitting conversation during the Jewish holiday of Passover with its themes of journeys, change, and relationship with God.

Méli [00:01:03]:

Also, one of the key elements of the Passover Seder just held around the world is asking questions. As you will hear, Lindsay, in her ongoing Jewish study teaching and earlier doctoral work, is dedicated to asking questions and seeking answers from within her British Orthodox perspective. Her lifelong passion for studying the Jewish sacred texts, as well as decades spent on increasing Orthodox women's engagement with that material testify to the richness of these texts and the value of using your knowledge to affect change however long it takes. Lindsay is a researcher at the Religion and Global Society Unit at the London School of Economics working on women of faith and peace building. Additionally, she is a fellow at the London School of Jewish Studies as well as various inter religious projects with local Muslims and Christians. Lindsay lives in London with her family. Her social media links and resources are listed in the show notes. Hello, Lindsay.

Méli [00:02:21]:

Welcome to my Living Our Believes podcast. I'm really pleased to have you on today.

Lindsay [00:02:26]:

Thank you so much for having me, Meli. It's a delight to be here.

Méli [00:02:30]:

I'd like to begin with my usual first question. What is your religious and cultural identity?

Lindsay [00:02:37]:

I would say I'm an Orthodox Jew, and, I'm British and also Israeli, actually.

Méli [00:02:45]:

Were you raised within Orthodoxy?

Lindsay [00:02:48]:

So my family belonged to an Orthodox synagogue, sure, community. But that's quite common here in the UK to be belong to an Orthodox community under the umbrella of the United Synagogue. And although they belong to that synagogue, they were not practicing Orthodox Jews.

Méli [00:03:05]:

How would you describe the practice in your, upbringing?

Lindsay [00:03:09]:

Barely traditional, but very respectful.

Méli [00:03:13]:

Okay. So what does barely traditional mean?

Lindsay [00:03:16]:

It means that we had a Friday night dinner. We had 2 Seder nights. We went to shul, to synagogue on, Rosh Hashanah, the new year and Yom Kippur, and very barely otherwise. We did not observe Shabbat in any way apart from Friday night dinner. Kashrut, you know, the laws of, food and eating were also very barely observed, and that was in the house.

Méli [00:03:44]:

It sounds like at some point you shifted deeper into Orthodox observance. What was the impetus for that and and when was that?

Lindsay [00:03:56]:

So although my parents were not practicing Jews, they were just very positive, I think. And also very, for me, very enthusiastic about things that interested me. So, for example, I have a younger brother. And given that we were members of our local Orthodox synagogue, we went to the cheder, the Sunday school there. I think my brother really did not enjoy it at all and I just happened to love it. And then when I was about 10, I decided I'd like to go to boarding school. My parents, found a Jewish boarding school and it happened to be run under Orthodox auspices. But I loved it.

Lindsay [00:04:33]:

I just really enjoyed it there. Orthodox life became ordinary in a sense, became habitual. I think later in my teens, probably from about 15, 16, I also became quite influenced by, Lubavitch families. Interestingly, that year of school, many of us after school went to seminary or yeshiva and actually took on an Orthodox life. And so those people did have impact on our lives. It was a very positive experience, positive as a young child, positive in high school, positive with the people I met. So it was all quite joyful and it only took me later post high school and into my university years where I became very, very involved in Jewish learning. And that really, that mattered. That was very substantial and and continues to be very substantial for me.

Méli [00:05:23]:

Yeah. Interesting that the whole environment was really supportive of being on this path, and interesting to hear that it was joyful and fun. Those are not words that I tend to associate with that kind of lifestyle, especially for girls.

Lindsay [00:05:43]:

Yeah. I mean, look, I'm I'm not part of the Lubavitch community now, but I do think in some ways they have it right when it comes to women in some ways because 2 or 3 main reasons. 1 is that if you go to a Lubavitch household, you will see on the wall a picture of their leader, the late Lubavitch rebbe, but always his wife, Chaya Muschka. And there weren't many places I went where you had female pictures on walls. Again, I don't know if that was something I understood actively or that was like a passive kind of influence. Also, the women were sent on Shlichut also as Emma Sarris. And also the women were learning. I was studying with the woman who was sent on Shlichut to school.

Lindsay [00:06:25]:

I found it wondrous to study with her and that she was inspired herself by it. Again, there's lots of things to say post that, but that experience was something of, of a joyful one. Yes.

Méli [00:06:39]:

So at boarding school, this is high school, you really became more deeply habituated to that life. Very positive. Clearly, lots of learning, lots of Jewish, and, of course, the the other subjects as well. Is it correct that since then you have really stayed on that path? Is that correct?

Lindsay [00:07:01]:

Yeah. That's definitely true. I mean, I think that school was also a very slow process. And then, yes, I've remained part of the Orthodox community since then. I have to say that when I left school, I was probably much more attracted to the Haredi way of life, the more ultra-Orthodox way of life, and I went to a seminary that was, more Haredi. I stayed there for the year, but after 6 months, I didn't that was in Jerusalem and I moved out. It was not what I was looking for exactly. The studying I really enjoyed even there, I have to say.

Lindsay [00:07:35]:

And then as, an undergraduate, I carried on studying when I came back to the UK and I got married in that time. And then both my I'm divorced now, but my husband then and I both wanted to go back to Israel and study. So we then got scholarships. And that meant we had 5 years of deep study in seminary, Yeshivot in Israel. That experience of learning, the study for me is still where my heart is. Jewish study is always about argument and disagreement and dispute and conflict and I find that very refreshing still. The fact that we kind of revel in it is quite shocking to some but I I like that discomfort. I feel that that's a healthy thing.

Lindsay [00:08:22]:

The constant questioning of what it means to both live as a Jew in terms of ritual, in terms of philosophy. I like that. It reassures me. That idea that stuff is up for debate, even necessitates debate. I like that.

Méli [00:08:41]:

So in all of this, you've been very much on the Orthodox track in in various ways and in various locations. Have you had very much contact with other denominations of Judaism?

Lindsay [00:08:58]:

Yes is the answer. Interestingly, I think that came from, I would say, 2 particular interests of mine. As I began teaching when we came back to the UK, I still teach actually something called the London School of Jewish Studies. For many years, about 15 years, I gave a parsha shiur, a class about the weekly portion. I got many questions about women and Judaism and orthodoxy and feminism. The more questions I was asked, the more I explored, the more frustrated and outraged I became at times. It was at that point that I decided I needed to do more work on actually my knowledge of, the history of feminism and feminist thought. And that's when I, did a master's at the LSC in gender and then stayed on to do a PhD.

Lindsay [00:09:46]:

But that track it's kind of the gender and Judaism track, and then my interest in other faiths, specifically women of other faiths, led me to much interfaith work and subsequently peace building work. Both of those worlds have meant that I have been at conferences or, taught in different spaces that are not just orthodox. For me, it's been not only an interfaith journey but an intra-faith journey. And when it comes to the Judaism and feminism conversations, they too take place within many denominations. They obviously take place in different within different contexts, within different frameworks. And so that's been a a real opportunity.

Méli [00:10:33]:

Part of what I'm curious about in how you live as an Orthodox Jewish woman is this question of other aspects of your life and how things fit together. You've already mentioned about the studies. You've mentioned about feminism. Not frequently a combination with orthodoxy. So curious about that, and of course, your researching, you've mentioned the peace building. So I'd like to hear a little more about how these disparate elements fit together, and are there particular stress points when these different things come together?

Lindsay [00:11:17]:

So this is like a 20 hour conversation, so I will be as brief as I can be. Let me mention a couple of things. So I was very privileged to learn at 2 two places, Nishemath in Jerusalem and Midrash at Lindamal in Jerusalem. And I named them because I think that's very important, because of the work they do and the, impact that that experience had on my life. In both those spaces, women's Torah, advanced Torah study is taken very seriously. In both of those places, there are now basically rabbinic courses. Some are called that, some are not. But whether you want to do this work in an evolutionary way or a revolutionary way, you know, depends sometimes on the leader of these institutions.

Lindsay [00:12:03]:

But both of those spaces enabled me to feel that my life as a Jewish woman, as an Orthodox Jewish woman, was a long-term project, was valuable, was meaningful, was transformational. It meant that not only did I receive wisdom, but I contributed to the community, communities. And that really at a very basic level, my relationship with God was a worthwhile endeavor. I'm sure there are people who would argue and say, well, you don't have to study Torah for that. You know, you could do a 100 other things. That is all true. For me, this is where that relationship happens, and this is where I feel most committed. So I would say that rather than limiting my world through Torah study or feeling that it was a discipline that reduced me in some way, I felt that it very much enabled me to flourish, that it was expansive.

Lindsay [00:13:06]:

Even though one of the heads of these institutions kinds of talk about evolution, she's an incredibly revolutionary woman. I like that kind of subversive revolutionary, twang a little bit. I do. Perhaps that's I'm just made like that. Perhaps it's a little bit of fun and joy again. Perhaps I think that's what my contribution is. I mean, if I'm a person who can stand up and argue calmly and with hopefully some semblance of thought, then that is what I feel I have to contribute to the world. In addition to that, there was, one institution that I felt had, different political leanings from the one I had into and that was when I was living in Israel, in Jerusalem.

Lindsay [00:13:52]:

And I think that when living there I was exposed to a kind of Jewish perspective that I was much more attracted to with regard to other other peoples. I think that that made me think very deeply, actually, about what I taught, how I taught on my return to the UK, and my relationship with the non-Jewish community. It it also is where, kind of, worlds collide. I think that I didn't know that my life would take such an interfaith leading to peace building trajectory. I saw myself much more in the education and I I did stay in in adult education, but then I've moved into academia, more directly and into peace building again more directly. And the interfaith work, as I said, began with women. What happens is they bounce off each other. So, for example, the London School of Jewish Studies is offering a course on the late rabbi Jonathan Sacks' thought and philosophies.

Lindsay [00:14:58]:

I'm a research fellow there. And I was asked to reflect on his position, his philosophies about other peoples and other religions because that's what I can do. And so delving into those things that matter to me, not only does it mean that I'm contributing to the Jewish world by teaching Jews, because that that's who go to those courses almost exclusively, about Rabbi Sacks' philosophy. But I'm also learning more about an Orthodox perspective, on other peoples and other peoples' faiths. And so these things speak to each other. I go out also when I maybe speak to other congregations or a couple of weeks ago I was asked to speak at a vigil, for the local council, where they had school children and they had faith leaders and they had the King's Lieutenant. You know, and it's a wonderful opportunity to speak about the way in which I see the Torah as espousing love, respect for all human beings. That's something I strongly believe in and also, hope to put out there.

Méli [00:16:05]:

Yeah. Super interesting. And I'm hearing how there's been quite a natural flow for you from early studies, time in Jerusalem, deeper studies. Okay. So maybe that particular school wasn't so comfortable. You shifted out, but the studies were still good. And then back in in England moving into research and interfaith and peace building. I don't hear any major points of conflict or stress.

Méli [00:16:37]:

Is that an accurate statement?

Lindsay [00:16:39]:

So I would definitely say that in terms of kind of career, but in terms of my personal private experience of Orthodox Judaism, I would say that there are points of stress in the sense that, I would say there's, I don't even know, 30 communities here now, shawls in this area, and none of them are a place where I could call home. So that is a definite stress point. And I would say a couple of years before COVID, a very close colleague and good friend of mine, we decided to start a new community. And it lasted about 2 years maybe, and then COVID came and it hasn't come back. But but we talk about it still as a work in progress. I feel that even the local communities that extensively call themselves modern Orthodox are led by Haredi, ultra-Orthodox rabbinic leadership, and it's just not a place that I can call home. I can give you an example of that. There's something in this community that is sent out which is like a newsletter.

Lindsay [00:17:48]:

There's like a rabbinic committee that sort of oversees what's in it. And on a Shabbat afternoon, about 10 years ago, 8 years ago, myself and a friend who's since moved to the US started a Mishnah Havurah. So we we have a study group on a Shabbat afternoon from Pesach till Sukkot, where the afternoons here in the UK are very long on Shabbat. And it just lasts an hour. And it's for women to study Mishnah who've mostly who've never studied it before. Many couldn't even read Hebrew. They certainly wouldn't want to prepare and kind of share. But we try to get everybody involved.

Lindsay [00:18:22]:

It's really a very safe space, specifically for women, especially for women who've never learned Misha before. And I don't know what you know about the UK, but even in the high schools, the religious high schools, the women do not learn Mishnah or Gemara. So there's a lot of ignorance when it comes to oral law. Anyway, it's a wonderful thing. It's been spectacular. It's in my PhD, but they wouldn't put it in the newsletter. You know, I wrote a PhD about this stuff. What can I tell you? It's difficult.

Lindsay [00:18:48]:

You know, you talked about points of stress. I think I'm over the stress. I'm 53. I'm over the stress. I'm just sad about that. So I just get on with it. Right? I go to a Gemara shiur, a Talmud shiur once a week. That also is not advertised.

Lindsay [00:19:01]:

It is led by one of the senior rabbis in the community. What can I say? I'm I mostly hold it in my home, which is an absolute privilege and joy. It's been going for about 20 years. Yay. So we have the Mishneh Chabor on Shabbat after Pesach for those sort of 6 months. And then as I said I'm, for the past 15 years, have been teaching both the parsha once a week, and then often I did some other courses. So for example, probably 15 years ago, we wrote a course or I wrote a course called the female Jew. The 1st semester we studied Jewish women as, described or prescribed in biblical narrative.

Lindsay [00:19:37]:

The 2nd term we did work on the Talmud and oral law, women as depicted there or actually who, were themselves included as authorities in Talmudic literature. And then the last semester was about Jewish women and Jewish law. We did that for a few years, and then actually that was taken to other communities. Part of the United Synagogue that I mentioned earlier actually took on those courses and took them to to different communities in the local areas. So that was great. So we've done done that kind of work. But again, you have to find ways to do that. So the London School of Jewish Studies, LSJS, is a real, hub of Jewish education, modern Jewish education.

Lindsay [00:20:21]:

It is under the auspices of the chief rabbi, but the chief rabbi's kind of orthodoxy is is still quite different from what I would call the Haredi leadership in the area that I live.

Méli [00:20:35]:

What I'm guessing when you speak of the course, for instance, not being listed in the newsletter, that the issue is that these are led by women for women, and therefore, the the men aren't interested in advertising, or is there some other issue?

Lindsay [00:20:53]:

No. I think it's women learning oral law, Talmud and Moshe. If it was a Parasha shiur or something like that, they list all of those. And the other thing they don't list is I've been, gabbai-ing, so kind of running, with with a a very close friend who also comes to the Gemara shiur actually, Edgeware Women's Megillah Reading, which I also started with the same woman who left for the states. So we also started that here. That's been going about 10 years. I was very, very lucky. I was, just because I was I was teaching in another area.

Lindsay [00:21:23]:

When we first got back to the UK, my husband was in the, role of rabbi at a a kind of local community, And we were there for about 4 years. It was lovely. We had a good time actually. It was a very nice community. And whilst I was there, I became involved in a neighboring community and I taught there too. And I did a weekly class for them. And whilst I was there, the rabbi there actually suggested that we did a women's Megillah reading. And it was the 1st women's Megillah reading that took place in a United Synagogue, so in any kind of Orthodox synagogue in the UK.

Lindsay [00:21:53]:

And he spearheaded it. It was really up to him. He's subsequently left and lives in Israel. I was asked to be part of a McGill reading in a community called Rablet just outside of London nearby and I've been doing that. I think this year is their 24th year of doing it, 25th maybe. We missed 1 year because of COVID, and that's that's fantastic. But that has enabled many other United Synagogues to then do women's McGillis reading. We were just asked last week, the local United Synagogue asked us who doing the women's McGill reading in Edgeware, where I live, if we would want to do it in the synagogue.

Lindsay [00:22:29]:

So we've been doing it in my home, friend's home every year for about 10, 12 years and we were just asked. So we hopefully will be doing that, which is good. You know, we we kind of like our being at home. We like, in that sense, having our own autonomy actually over it. But I think this will open it up to many other women to come, to see what we do, to see how women can participate actively in ritual, that it's led by, organized by women. These steps are baby steps. They're very small. They're very slow.

Lindsay [00:23:03]:

And you have to decide whether you can cope with that or you move to Jerusalem or, you know, New York or wherever it is. Right now I'm here. But you know, these synagogue services, the Mishnah Havurah, the Talmud class, the Megillah reading. You know, you can do that and you you can find your own space to enact your Judaism. I I guess I've come to this space now. I think 10 years ago, I was still shouting at the local rabbis and communities and having those conversations. And also, probably 10 to 15 years ago, feeling like I needed permission. This is the other thing.

Lindsay [00:23:43]:

Feeling that you needed a local rabbi to tick the box and give it a stamp of approval, is something that many of the women I know who live here began life thinking was necessary and important and have got to the stage. Again, I think it's a little bit of where you sit in the community, your age, you know, if if you worry about your kids getting married, you know, this is what people worry about. I don't worry about those things I have to say. But when you've got to get your kid into a school and the rabbi is the one who has to sign the form, you know, it is. It's it's all very kind of controlling and contrived and can lead to incredible frustration. It did lead to incredible frustration, but I was I also had that 5 years of study and the year before that gave me just much more confidence to say, well, you know, actually this and actually that. And what about this opinion? And also I have to say having a husband as a rabbi helped. It's a really awful thing to say actually.

Lindsay [00:24:41]:

But I think at this stage it's a lot easier for me to just get on. I just get on. Even though those things do make me sad because I feel I think what I mostly feel is that these things are opportunities for relationships with Torah, study, mitzvot, God, you know? And that cutting off your nose despite your face is just not helpful. And it's so not helpful for the women in the community, many of whom really excel professionally. Many of them would like a more active

Méli [00:25:14]:

You're very, polite about these things, but I I am hearing and, frankly, not at all surprised by this under the surface tension and, you know, being shut to the side or not getting opportunities, you know, simply because you're a woman. We each have to find our place. I think that's really what is the key criteria for me is do you does does one feel that they have a place and that that place is valued and respected? And I really hear that you have made your peace talk about peace building. Right? You've made your peace with certain parts of the Orthodox community. This life clearly enriches you. I don't hear any thoughts of, oh, well, I think maybe I'll shift to a conservative or I'll shift to a whatever. Part of these, conversations are about understanding how somebody who's leading a different kind of faith path, How is it working? Where is it maybe not working? And so this is why I say all this, you know, reflecting back is to make sure I'm understanding what your life is because it's quite different from mine.

Lindsay [00:26:27]:

Absolutely. Thank you for saying that. It's interesting that I sound kind of calm and measured and level-headed. I do feel like that, but it's taken many years. And sometimes I don't feel like that. Sometimes I'm enraged, outraged, disgusted, offended, horrified. There's several things to say. The first thing to say is that a very dear friend of mine who unfortunately passed away about 5 years ago, Maureen Candler, who was a wonderful educator in the Orthodox community.

Lindsay [00:26:57]:

She always said, if you leave, you you can't make any comment. Don't threaten to leave, threaten to stay. That's what she used to say. And I found that helpful. Also, there's no way I'm gonna say that you get to make the choices about my life or that you get to define and create orthodoxy to the kind of men in charge. No, actually. I'm here. I'm staying.

Lindsay [00:27:25]:

And the Orthodox life that I lead is an Orthodox life. It's both a choice that I've made, but I hope also, something that enables other women to make similar choices. Maureen, the woman I just mentioned, myself, and several other women, about 8 of us, formed a group about 15 years ago. But it consisted of many women who are part of the Orthodox community, but who also teach, who write summer academics, and they rant about the horrors and the experiences they have that make them want to tear their hair out. That helps too. That is a space within which we can have these discussions. And the truth is that all of these women, all of them without exception, teach in the Jewish community and the Orthodox Jewish community as well as outside, belong to Orthodox synagogues. Some of them, for example, Lain and Megillah, but also Lain from the Torah in say partnership Mignanim, which are more egalitarian they're called open orthodox, you know, use your own terminology.

Lindsay [00:28:37]:

For example, some write books, some create courses, some actually are married to rabbis and are working also, as well as their own careers, they serve communities. A couple who are sort of honorary members live in Israel and when they visit they we we we we meet with them too. But they are very world-renowned Torah teachers. So I I feel that I'm not alone and that really helps. And that in and of itself is a community. But these women, I mean some of them are, for example, one is working extremely hard on Jewish educational material that is much more than it used to be with regard to gender roles. So these women are really doing stuff and the reason they can do it within the Orthodox community is because they stay within the Orthodox community. So that's one thing I think that gives me a lot of strength.

Lindsay [00:29:29]:

Even when we're ranting and feeling hopeless, it still gives me a lot of hope. Also, there's a lot of wit in that group of women. So that laughter is, is, is, is an excellent thing. And the other thing is that I'm still asked to speak. I'm asked to speak at many places. I've just been asked to speak on Pesach, on Passover. I'm I'm walking to another community. On Shavuot, on the Tikkun Lel, you know, the night time learning.

Lindsay [00:29:52]:

I've been asked to speak. So that's lovely. But that means that I have a a voice and I have a podium to share things. And I I don't have to always go out there and be rah rah. Just the fact that I am there, just the fact that I'm an Orthodox woman, just the fact that it's me teaching a particular biblical verse or a particular Gemara or a particular law means that women are involved in both the study of these sacred texts, the interpretation of these texts, how these texts are platform to be considered, within a certain world. And I'm just going to use it, you know, I'm just going to I hope I'm not going to abuse it or misuse it. But if I have that opportunity to encourage young women to go and study Torah, to feel that they are worthy members of communities and that they can hold power to account, then I will indeed continue to do that.

Méli [00:31:01]:

Yeah. Fair enough. And what I'm hearing is that in these various roles, you and the other women are your models. You're models for the younger generations.

Lindsay [00:31:13]:

I hope so. I mean, I also have daughters, and I have sons and daughters. I'm a very blessed woman, but, you know, they also hold me to account. They're frustrated on my behalf and a little bit with me, you know, because I'm their mom. Like, oh, seriously? You may give it up, you know. I think I put up with more stuff than my daughters will without question. But I think that's how life goes. I'm not gonna give myself a hard time about that. I feel it more as a responsibility. I mean, it is a privilege and a responsibility, but and I know that just by being there, you know, by being present, by doing this stuff, that's what I need to do.

Méli [00:31:48]:

So a couple of the things that I'm I'm hearing, one is this question of permission, and I would add agency. You didn't use that word. And then a second is the importance of really being grounded in knowledge. And then you get the invites, then you can participate. And, you know, as a woman, you might or might not be allowed to, but that contributes to having a voice and a platform. And then the third thing I'd add is we all need to pick our battles. And I just think, you know, these three things really are coming through very strongly for me when I hear you speak of your life in the Jewish community there.

Lindsay [00:32:29]:

So absolutely. Okay. Let's get to the agency thing first then. I got to kind of pursue my frustrations with the Jewish community outside the Jewish community. I applied for an MSC, a master's at the LSE, London School of Economics, in the Department of Gender. I thought, you know what, I'm teaching all this stuff. I can read Simone de Beauvoir. Do do I really know what she's talking about? It'd be better if I was in a classroom and discussing it and all the other works that are necessary for these kind of conversations and for me to teach better, the stuff that I was teaching.

Lindsay [00:33:04]:

Okay. So I did that, and then I did my PhD. My PhD having that space to take a step back, to see myself as well as Judaism or Orthodox Judaism from a very different perspective was a fantastic way for me to engage. That meant I didn't have to confront directly the Jewish community. So that helped. I was encouraged there to do a doctorate probably because of the way in which I was kind of exploring ideas there at the LSC. And I was very encouraged by my, lecturers and and and so on to to pursue a PhD. My PhD is entitled generating piety, agency in the lives of British Orthodox Jewish women.

Lindsay [00:33:55]:

So it's all about that. It is based on Judith Butler Saba Mahmood work about well, Saba Mahmood in particular, her work about Muslim piety and agency. But I wanted to explore the agency of women in the British Orthodox Jewish community with regard to their education, with regard to their ritual participation, and with regard to issues of authority and leadership. And those three areas of Jewish life, especially within the Orthodox Jewish community are the spaces where women's agency is questioned, is wobbly, is invisible, is subversive. It is perhaps, I would say, mobilized in ways that are not necessarily obvious, certainly to gender theorists who writes about religious subjects. For example, I mean, one of the things that interests me is this idea of choices. You know, you either do what the authority said and you or you don't. And then you're somebody who has made a choice, who has agency.

Lindsay [00:35:04]:

But let's take the case of the Megillah readings. If you submit to Jewish law, does that mean you don't have agency? You can choose in or out. So, according to kind of the binary concept, you know, perform according to what people expect or you don't. And if you, sort of, perform out of what is anticipated, then perhaps you show agency. But what about women's Megillah readings? But what is that? On the one hand, you are submitting to Jewish law. You are performing the obligation because you must. But at that very moment you're performing the obligation. You're doing in a way that is subverting the normative intelligible in her words, the intelligible way of doing things.

Lindsay [00:35:48]:

And you become unintelligible with your, in your own community, even at the moment when you submit to the law. So those very fine points of where theory breaks down in some ways, or isn't expansive enough to think about those complications, about what agency looks like in different situations. Learning Mishnah. Learning Talmud. So I think those are very interesting and and the word agency is exactly the right word. I I think, yes. You know, over the last 20 years, of course, things have changed. Right? We do have women's Megillah readings in Cinnabons.

Lindsay [00:36:19]:

We do have Gamara Shiurim for women. There are all shifts. They are just so painfully slow, you know, walking through the mud in stilettos kind of feeling. You know, it's pain. We can hear the screeching. Having that space to reflect through a different lens really gave me both the opportunity to ensure that those women had voices but also to recognize sort of publicly in a way that actually these things were going on. You know, if you don't know what those things mean, if you don't know what different head coverings mean, if you don't know what it means when a person belongs to this synagogue or that synagogue or learns this but doesn't study that or sends their kid to this school but not that one or who won't go to a woman's Megillah. You know, you don't understand the nuances.

Lindsay [00:37:04]:

And so I think actually I'm so glad it was me who did it because I feel like I was able to really understand what those women were trying to say.

Méli [00:37:14]:

Yeah. And, again, what I'm hearing, Lindsay, is these waves of study, teaching, pushing the envelope a bit. Okay? Then the women who come after you don't have to fight that battle. They have that room, and they will keep pressing forward. I think this is quite a natural process. The other aspect that's connected for me is you're talking about the halakhic questions, but right underneath that or as a result of that, then there are these social norms. And this is just part of the Jewish process. I'm actually going to need to speak with a Christian and a Muslim whether they see this in their communities, but certainly within our communities there have been waves of what started out as a cultural social norm then takes on this strength of halakhah, then we have to fight the battle and say, wait a second.

Méli [00:38:23]:

It isn't. It's just been the social norm that's gotten hardened, calcified.

Lindsay [00:38:30]:

Absolutely. Look. There's lots to say about that. You know, we can start from the premise of all knowledge is situated. You know, we can do that. You know, we can think about that. We can think about the fact that the Talmud has, for every question, 17 different opinions. We can also add to that that the Gemara itself says, what does it say? Puk hazi my ama davar [Hebrew].

Lindsay [00:38:52]:

Go out and see what the people are doing. So the halakhic process itself has within it this kind of, like you said, the social knowledge. When you make a halachic decision, what do you do? So someone comes, say, to ask the rabbi a question. So what does the rabbi do? The rabbi does 3 things. 1, the rabbi looks up. Has this question been asked before? Have similar questions been asked? But what is the discussion? So text, both written and oral text. Number 2, the rabbi looks out, Puk hazi, looks out onto the community. What do the people do? What is the normative behavior in this community? And it will be different in Poland, from Morocco, from the United States, from London.

What is the normative, as you said the kind of local custom? But the third thing the rabbi does is he looks at this person as well. If this person can afford another chicken, do I have to be lenient or can I be more strict? And in this case, if the milk fell in the pot, you know, could should I be more lenient in this case? And you look for leniencies or stringencies depending on the situation. But what is most interesting is that then as it were his decision, I'm saying his loosely here, his decision itself becomes part of number 1, the thing that other people then look at to see what decisions they make. So in that sense, it is very alive and vibrant, dynamic. And there's something for me very positive about that. Of course, there's this unbelievable calcification as well. I don't want to sound all pink and fluffy and and be ridiculous and apologetic even. But there is something in the system that enables dynamism and and evolution.

Lindsay [00:40:29]:

Harvey Veloski, Rabbi Veloski, calls it a responsive evolution, that halacha is a is responsive evolution. Look, it could be in some situations that responses are very slow, and in some other spaces, they march quickly on. But nevertheless, as a system, it has that kind of dynamism to it. I'm aware of myself here sounding very cheerleader-y. And to some extent, I do think as a system that that's a healthy system. And I think, actually, most legal systems are like that. Right? You set precedents, you argue against the precedent, you rework the law, and you just keep going. Again, knowledge is always situated.

Lindsay [00:41:08]:

So we we have that. And those situations shift over time, you know, historically and geographically, they differ over space and time. But having a system, nevertheless, I see it more as an enabling device rather than a disabling device. And I know I'm a a glass half full type of person. And and there's every reason to, you know, not believe in the system and see it as limiting. And I I I get that. I just don't sit there. I don't sit there.

Lindsay [00:41:36]:

And I've thought about it a lot. I have to say, look, if you we have this conversation in 10 years' time, I might have changed my mind. But right now, that's certainly where I sit. It impacts on the issues of peace building. I think that's also something that's very of the time and absolutely necessary. Your comment before about Christian and, Muslim women and and their experiences of their own communities, that's also impacted me because those are the conversations that I had with them, and that has led me to a lot of these peace building opportunities as well.

Méli [00:42:10]:

There is so much to say. So many words have been said, and, hopefully, we can do this again and explore additional ideas. We do need to wrap this up though, Lindsay. Do you have any closing comments, something really important that we didn't get in?

Lindsay [00:42:31]:

I suppose I could say a couple of things. One is I think that having children, and I have a child with special needs as well, humbles you and enlarges you to think differently from the way you thought you'd be doing life. And I think that has a huge impact on everything, your religious life as well. So I think that hearing different voices, knowing that the way in which you see the world is going to be constantly challenged. I think the other thing I would just say is that, with regard to the peace building work that I do, chief rabbi's access thought has impacted me quite significantly. But when you read the pasuk, the verse, rhyme, love the stranger for you were strangers in the land of Egypt, is repeated so many times in the Torah. And he writes actually, not that as a consequence of being in Egypt, we should be the most sensitive people to others, especially others who are suffering. He speaks about the fact that God necessitated us to have that experience in order that we were the archetypal model to ensure that all human beings are seen in the image of God.

Lindsay [00:43:43]:

There are times in life, one's own life, but also historical, you know, life with a capital l, where some parts of the Torah feel more meaningful and necessary and others are quieter. And I I do feel that this point in historical life where these are the things we ought to be focusing on. This is what we need to bring to the world in our very small local way.

Méli [00:44:13]:

Yeah. Point well taken. Well, Lindsay, this has just been such a pleasure to speak with you about your life in the Orthodox Jewish community in London and all of your various travels, Jerusalem, etcetera. I just really appreciate you giving me the time and being willing to speak so openly. Thank you.

Lindsay [00:44:36]:

You're very welcome, and thank you for asking me. It's been a joy. It was a joy to meet you, and it's a joy to to talk with you today. Thank you.

Méli [00:44:46]:

Thank you so much for listening. This Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. In that research, I explore how Jews, Christians, and Muslims live their faith, including their sense of God, prayer practice, and how faith is present in daily life. If you'd like to keep up to date about the project, subscribe to my twice monthly newsletter at www.talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.