Ramadan is a Capsule of Light – Nayma Tasnim Islam

Episode 64.
Since Muslims are currently celebrating Ramadan, Nayma has graciously returned to the podcast to share her experience of the annual holiday, what she does and why it is important to her. For Nayma, Ramadan is a capsule of light, a pause button releasing her from the hamster wheel of daily life. She takes us on a journey through the traditions of iftar, the unique aspects of Ramadan in Bangladesh and the U.S., as well as the profound impact of fasting on the mind, body, and spirit. She reveals the spiritual significance and explains the critical elements of the annual month-long holiday: fasting, breaking the fast in community, prayer, reading the Qur’an, and giving charity.

Highlights:
·       A celebration of strength and mindfulness.
·       Connection with God and engagement with the community.
·       Mindful practices and self-restraint.
·       Amplification of prayers and attention to God.
·       Detox for mind, body, and soul.
·       Variety of iftar meals in the US compared to Bangladesh.

References:
Nayma's episode #26 - Grateful to God
https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/podcast-1/episode/7a113141/26-nayma-tasnim-islam-grateful-to-god

Yaqueen Institute articles on Ramadan –
- https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/how-does-ramadan-work-a-beginners-guide

- https://yaqeeninstitute.org/watch/series/pillar-4-what-is-the-purpose-of-fasting

Recipe – Beguni (Chickpea flour battered deep fried eggplant):

Ingredients: 
4 Tbl. Chickpea flour
One 4-5" eggplant
Chotpoti Moshola (Chat Masala)
Cayennne Pepper and Cumin Powder (alt. to Chat Masala)
Salt
Oil (for deep frying)

Steps:

1. Cut eggplant in half lengthwise and 2-3" wide slices.
2. Mix Chickpea flour with salt and Chotpoti Mashala (Chat Masala). Add water to make a thick paste. 
3. Season the batter with Chotpoti Moshola (Chat Masala) or ground Cayenne pepper, ground Cumin and salt.
4. Heat oil in a frying pan for deep frying.
5. Season eggplant slices with cayenne pepper (optional), cumin and salt to taste.
6. Coat the eggplant slices with seasoned chickpea batter and deep fry them until golden brown. 
7. Serve hot with Tamarind sauce, Raita, Tzatziki or sour cream.

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271


Transcript:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/14781162

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The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/

Transcript

Nayma Tasnim Islam transcript

Ramadan is a Capsule of Light 

Meli  [00:00:05]:

Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. This is episode 64. Since Muslims are currently celebrating Ramadan, Nayma Tasnim Islam has graciously returned to the podcast to share her experience of the annual holiday, what she does, and why it's important to her.

If you have not yet heard her first episode, number 26, I encourage you to take a listen. In that episode, Nayma talks about her upbringing in Bangladesh, building a new life in America, and the presence of God in her life. There is a link in the show notes to her first episode as well as information about Ramadan and one of her favorite Ramadan recipes. Wishing Ramadan Mubarak to all my Muslim listeners. 

Hello, Nayma. Welcome back to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. Thank you so much for coming back to talk about Ramadan.

Nayma [00:01:44]:

Hello, Meli. It's very good to be back, and I am excited to talk about my Ramadan experiences too. And I would like to say salaam, and peace be upon whoever is listening to the podcast.

Meli  [00:01:59]:

So I'd like to start with a super basic question. What is Ramadan? What is that a celebration of?

Nayma [00:02:06]:

It's a celebration of being mindful to God and self-restraint. When I talk about mind being mindful to God, we abstain from eating and drinking, from dawn to dusk, and then we break-fast. But other than from just eating and drinking, there are many other aspects involved in the word, psalm, fasting, and that includes actions one's actions too. And controlling one actions too. That's why it's a celebration of self-restraint in our holy book, the Quran. God has certainly honored the children of Adam. But the word certainly really doesn't do a good translation because there are 3 emphasis in the Arabic. So that's certainly certainly, like, very solid have honored the children of Adam.

When we think we cannot do a lot of things without food and drink, we cannot control our actions, or I don't have the energy to be thoughtful towards somebody. I don't have the energy to be compassionate or considerate about my surrounding because I don't have the capacity. But in this statement, God states that he has created the children of Adam being in a very higher state with a very higher capability. And absolutely certain that he states that. So Ramadan is, to me, is a celebration of that. Being mindful to God and becoming the actual being that God has created children of Adam to be with honor.

Meli  [00:04:05]:

One of the things that stands out for me in that explanation, Nayma, is saying it's a celebration of self-restraint, which to my ears holds a bit of a contradiction. You're saying, I set aside a number of things. I set aside all food and drink between sunrise and sunset. I set aside anger, and I tried to be more patient. But to celebrate that, I'm surprised to hear that. I don't understand the celebration of the self-restraint.

Nayma [00:04:41]:

1st, it's strength. Food and drink. It's not that we are not eating at all. We are eating at the end of the not just end of the day. It's quite a big portion of the day, eating and drinking. So that shows strength. A human being can be focused and do daily work in that state. And then the emotions, there is no controlling of emotions flowing in.

And that's the battle. It's a test. I will feel angry. I will feel devastated. Am I being angry and harming you with my words? Am I being too preoccupied of my own situation and lying because of that and causing harms to others by that lie. The emotions, he or she is not above the emotions, but they're above the action. The Ramadan comes, and it teaches us. It reminds us.

First of all, it reminds us, you are of that stage, and you can be strong. So this whole month, according to the moon, whether it's 30 days or 29 days, practice it. In Islam, it says, Ramadan is a madrasa. It's a school. So we enter it during every year once we enter it. We get out of it graduated. We get back to the craze of the world. That's why it's a month of celebration of self-restraint.

In another word, acknowledging that, yes, as human beings, we are very strong.

Meli  [00:06:22]:

I would put that as a celebration of your strength to have self-restraint and the mindfulness of your resources. The resources of your strength, the resources of community, the resources of food and energy. Am I in line?

Nayma [00:06:46]:

That absolutely makes sense. Okay. That is put very beautifully because I will eventually say more about it. But all the points that you have touched, they they make some. And the month, you have put it really perfect.

Meli  [00:07:05]:

So I'd like to hear more about what you actually do. We've just spoken quite a bit about what you don't do or the restricted times of that activity. What are the key activities in Ramadan for you?

Nayma [00:07:23]:

During the day when we start our fast from dawn, no drinking, no eating. So the daily activities are all normal. The addition is that this is also a month where God has raised the bar of reward. Anyway, we know God is merciful. The Qur’an starts with his name, Ar Rahman, the most merciful. We do one good deed. He gives a reward of 10 folds and beyond. But the month of Ramadan, he puts it with such emphasis.

This is how a hadith that is a saying from our prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of God be upon him. He said that Allah says, God says, that every action of son of Adam is for himself, but fasting is for me, and I am the one who is going to reward it. Because, say, for all other actions, if I'm praying, you have seen me pray at the mosque. You actually can see me. I'm doing that. When I'm giving zakat, that is the charity compulsory charity we have to give, the people who we are giving it, they're seeing it. They're receiving it. They're seeing it.

Even though if I hide it from everybody else. Fasting, no one can tell whether I'm fasting or not. I can tell you I'm fasting. If I go and eat, hiding from everyone, no one can tell. So this is an action entirely between the person who's fasting and God. So it's it's a trust that nobody else gets to see that. And the value, that's why also God's reward is so high. And he says the whole month is filled with so much blessing.

When it came to charity, I talked to you about charity. So we are supposed to give away that compulsory portion of our earning of the whole year by the month of Ramadan, and everybody rushes to complete it. Then, at night, we have these additional prayers. They're not compulsory, but we love to go to the mosque. This can be prayed at home and in congregation. But at the mosque, it's beautiful with the whole community and the entire book. The holy Quran is being read from cover to cover from the beginning of the month of Ramadan till the end. So at night, it takes an hour or 2.

They pray together. They break fast together. We celebrate that. This is a celebration because food should be shared with everyone. Again, another lesson from our prophet, Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Salam. During Ramadan, we should include everyone, the neighbors too, because it's it's like we're breaking fast together. There's preparation. It feels so good to have friends and family and community and sit with them and break fast.

You can put it this way that the way Islam is both seclusion with God and his book and companionship, both with full heaviness. I cannot do one more and one less. The same way Ramadan is a, embodiment of that. You can visibly see it that I want my time with God, And this is a very auspicious time to strengthen that connection between God and his servant. At the same time, the celebration with community, the involvement, the engagement, because we have a, you can say, reason. Let's pray together. Let's pray together.

Meli  [00:11:05]:

Okay. So here's what I'm hearing. During Ramadan, you fast sunrise to sunset, then you have an iftar, you break the fast, and that it's particularly auspicious perhaps to break fast in community. So not just your family, but in the broader community. You read the whole Quran during Ramadan. There are additional prayers. You give charity, your annual requirement. Did I get everything? You got everything.

Yes. Okay. So the reading of the whole Quran, are the different chapters grouped in some way normally during Ramadan? Do you just divide it by 30 or 29? Because I know some are long and some are short. So how how does that work?

Nayma [00:12:01]:

That's a beautiful question. So the Suras, some are very long, some are short. There are 2 that has only 3 verses, and there are Surahs that has 286 verses. So the Quran is being grouped in 30 Jews. So the Jews are around 20, 25 pages or something. Depends on the calligraphy, but there are 30 groups. So the mosques usually target a little more than 1 Jews a day when they perform that night prayer. There is a surah in the Quran that says, there is one night during this month of Ramadan.

That is the peak of everything. Because during that night, God sent the whole book of Quran to nearest heaven, and then it kept coming slowly to our prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasalam every time he needed it. You can also say Ramadan is the month of the Quran. That's why the emphasis is so much. You will see everybody involve themselves with Quran.

Meli  [00:13:10]:

Yeah. That's super interesting. And this business about the whole of the Quran coming to Mohammed in one night and then again kind of slowly over time is a is a really image. I'd I'd never heard that before. And I suppose this this is quite common among prophets where they have received a message from God in some way. I don't think I've ever heard, it certainly is not true of the the Bible where the entirety has been received in in one day by one person. So I think Islam is is unique in in this way. So that's really interesting.

Nayma [00:14:02]:

That's very beautiful, of you to put it that way, but I guess I might have said it wrong or I missed it. So the entire book came to the nearest heaven on one night, then it kept coming to the prophet. It came to the prophet Muhammad according to his needs in different situations.

Meli  [00:14:23]:

Okay. Thank you for that correction. It came to the nearest heaven. Nearest to to us or nearest to Mohammed or nearest to God.

Nayma [00:14:35]:

I guess it's nearest to us. And there is this beautiful understanding of verses in the Quran where one day Inshallah, we will get to know where that nearest heaven is. But right now, it's it's it's like a generic thing. And then one day when we will get to know, it will be like, it makes sense. The nearest heaven, that term.

Meli  [00:15:01]:

Hearing you say that, Nayma, you've reminded me of something that a research participant said to me, a Muslim, when I asked about what Islam was to this person, and they said it was light upon light upon light.

Nayma [00:15:21]:

That is absolutely true. Again, that another poetic expression, but it just absolutely makes sense. It's light upon light upon light.

Meli  [00:15:34]:

Yeah. You can visualize it, but it's these layers of of heaven. It's like the layers of light.

Nayma [00:15:41]:

That is so true too. So that's how it is. You you you're visualizing heavens upon heavens upon heavens, and we know there are there are heavens upon heavens. And when you have said it, I'm getting goosebumps because you can visualize it that way way to light upon light upon light. So that's why these expressions are so poetic, and they apply to be very true in many visualizations.

Meli  [00:16:11]:

Right. Absolutely. And I think that I think being able to visualize something is is something that we humans need. You know, when we're talking about something as abstract as a prophet who is no longer alive or as God or Allah or whatever word we use for the divine, it's very difficult to deal with an abstract concept. We we do at some point need to put words to it, and words have images. You know, even light. Well, light is abstract, but we understand what light is. Yes.

Right? Whether it's sunlight or artificial light, that is something that is a meaningful concept.

Nayma [00:16:59]:

Exactly. So there is an absolutely artistic verse in the Quran when you said we we want those words to at least be able to put our minds in there. And that that verse starts with the with, saying, God is the light of the heavens and the earth. And then it goes on how the light is as if you can visualize how the light is. And it's a beautiful verse, very artistic. Sometimes I feel I wish I could make a painting out of it. But when she said that, the Muslim person and the way you're visualizing the heavens upon heaven lights, all these comes because God is light of the heavens and the earth.

Meli  [00:17:39]:

So taking that idea one step further, when you then think about Ramadan, is it a particularly light filled month

Nayma [00:17:52]:

for you? And you have put it again so beautifully, and that's absolutely what how it is. It is filled with light to me, and I have my personal reflections on how that the month of Ramadan is for me. One expression has to be absolutely it's light the whole month. If I look back when I was a kid or when I was a teenager, however, it was hard. But still, Ramadan always used to be, always felt like a month of celebration. We would look forward to it.

Meli  [00:18:28]:

Despite its challenges.

Nayma [00:18:30]:

Yes.

Meli  [00:18:32]:

So when you think about looking forward to Ramadan, you're saying you still feel that way. Right? That you look forward to Ramadan.

Nayma [00:18:41]:

I look forward to Ramadan.

Meli  [00:18:44]:

What is it about Ramadan that that causes that anticipation for you?

Nayma [00:18:50]:

You have used the word such a pretty word, light. And I look at Ramadan as a capsule of light where you can enter and lock yourself. Now I will go to our world a little bit. Even though, say, perhaps, my generation, we think that we have moved away from the standardized thoughts that you achieved this by this age, that by that age. So you broke out of it. We haven't necessarily solved that problem. We might have walked away from that, but there is some other things cave and filled up the space, brought more anxiety. It's a hamster's wheel churning nonstop.

The consumerism is at its peak right now, and pressure is at its peak right now. Taking ourselves away from that notion that have you achieved this, this, this by this age of your life? Yes. We have moved from there, but we have added this extra pressure that I can do whatever I put my mind in. But then it's very toxic in a way because I'm removing God from the picture completely. I can do my best, but there is failure. So after doing my best, if there is not so called success, then then what is that? So that's full pressure on myself. Again, I start churning the hamster's wheel because I have to get that success. So it's constant run run run.

And, of course, being human being having those qualities of anger and depression and feeling anxiety, all those things plays a part. Working, doing day job, all these other aspects. And, also, I want to add is that it's more like intoxicates their mind, body, and soul. Ramadan to me is a detox for mind, body, and soul because right now, anxiety and loneliness are the biggest epidemic of this day and age. Sometimes I feel, can we put a pause? Like, is there a pause button? I feel Ramadan is that pause button. It's like, oh, it comes. It's a capsule of light. I'm going to call that.

You have put a nice word. So it's a capsule of light. I get in. I lock it. And the world does come to a pause. So to me, Ramadan is that madrassa where we don't graduate high school. We don't go back to high school and graduate again and again. But God being the most merciful, he brings that month every year and says, here, you're very intoxicated. Enter. Get a detox. Graduate the school. Get out. Get ready. You'll have to go back to the world again.

Meli  [00:21:48]:

It's rather like an annual retreat where you have quiet time, you have reflection, you have some community, you step off as you say, you step off the hamster wheel.

Nayma [00:22:00]:

That is so true. And because the whole community has the same mindset, there is this option for you to hit the pause button.

Meli  [00:22:11]:

Yeah. And that is, in my experience as well one of the benefits of being part of a community and being part of a tradition where you are all in the flow together focusing on a certain activity, on a holiday, on a certain set of prayers, you know, what have you, doing that together spiritually and also physically is very powerful.

Nayma [00:22:40]:

It is. It is. And, again, you're using all the right words today, really. You know, the word powerful that you said, and I talked about there was this very auspicious night, the night when the book came to the nearest heaven. So was sent down by God. Then that night is called Al Qadr, And one of the translation of the word Al Qadr is power. So the night of power. One of God's name is Al Qadr, the most powerful, the one who decrees. So the power of decrees in his hands. And it's very powerful. It is.

Meli  [00:23:17]:

Another question about the experience of Ramadan for you. Is it your sense that God or Allah is more mindful, is more attentive to your prayers? I'll explain why I'm asking this. So in the Jewish tradition, our major holidays are in the fall, Rosh Hashanah and then Yom Kippur. There is a common understanding that kind of the spiritual energy is heightened during this time, and that going to synagogue and really paying attention to the prayers and really being mindful and being present will yield more in those days than on other days. And and I just find myself wondering whether that is also true for Muslims during Ramadan.

Nayma [00:24:13]:

I guess the word you have used, it yields more because of the energy. So God's attention is as strong in every moment as possible. But it's the servant's intention. If, say, when I am talking to you again, I'll come this day and age. I can look at my phone. That happens a lot. We're having a conversation. I'm just checking my phone at the side.

I'm not being present fully. We are not present. Our minds drift away while even we are doing prayers. And, of course, God, even though I am not doing my best, my breathing doesn't stop. The oxygen, he doesn't seize it. He doesn't make the sun stop shining. So him being the all merciful, that aspect is there. But when it's my personal needs, when I'm having the conversation, am I present there fully? Am I being mindful there fully? If that's done at any moment at anywhere, it just reaches right away.

But I guess, Ramadan, what you said, it's a congregational energy that people brings together. They are they are all present, praying altogether at. The light is deemed down. Beautiful recitation of Quran happens, and we're all standing side by side, shoulder to shoulder at the mosque. That just makes an ambiance and brings somebody very present and mindful. So, of course, that message also reaches to God. But God is there at every moment with his full attention. It's the servant, I being not present all the time.

Can I pay him the full attention with my urges, my prayers, my wants and needs talking to him? So how mindfully am am I talking to him?

Meli  [00:26:17]:

And that, again, reminds me of of something else. It reminds me of one of the descriptions that I have heard within the Jewish world of God. The question is, where is God? Not who is God, but where is God? And the answer is God is wherever you let him in. And I use the gender just because it's normative, not because I believe it's God is is male. Okay. And I find that a a beautiful image and that you've reminded me of that in your description that when any one of us are really present, really paying attention in that moment, especially in a communal prayer situation, and we are focused, then our full attention means that it is all going to to the divine and what our what our prayers are saying.

Nayma [00:27:30]:

So what you said, there's exactly something like that. Our prophet Mohammed sallallahu alaihi wa sallam has said that Allah says, I am to my servant the way he thinks of me. If he comes to me with a arm's length, and he will come, what, yards. If he comes to me walking, I go to him running. So what you said that where is God? Right? The explanation you did, it's almost the same. That it's the servant's mindfulness and presence with God. There, they will find him.

Meli  [00:28:11]:

I'd like to turn our attention a bit to how the holiday has changed for you. And I have I always hesitate to ask 3 questions in 1, but I I'm going to do it to show you the the different aspects that I was thinking about, and and you can respond to the part or parts that are meaningful to you. So one is, how has it changed over the years? The second is, how has it changed year to year, kind of over your lifetime and then maybe more recently year to year? And how has it changed between your growing up in Bangladesh and now your life in the US?

Nayma [00:29:00]:

Let me answer all of them in one answer. I guess they they just overlap. Right? When I was a kid in Bangladesh, it's it's a Muslim majority country. So hearing the recitation of the Quran and the religious songs, we call them nasheed at dawn. So we woke up with that beautiful sound. And I used to wonder, when does he eat? I keep hearing him. The time is running out.

Then at dusk, again, those recitations. And national TV will have the Quran recitation that will be played. And even though we cooked the same cuisine, and you would not make separate meals for others, but the same meal you're making, you'll make it extra and give it to auntie next door upstairs, downstairs. Whenever a plate is to come to our house, we would be so excited because even though it's the same cuisine, every house makes something unique. So we would be waiting to see what what extra does that plate has. And then everybody dressing up. At end of the month of Ramadan, we have the celebration of Eid. The tradition was, yes, we will have new dresses.

As children, we used to get money, which was something to very much look forward to. Being a kid, the month of Ramadan was a bit hard. Fasting and going to school, giving exams. When I came here in USA and I started going to college, Not drinking, not eating will tire you. Like every college kid, I used to work at coffee shops full time. So one day, I fell asleep on the train. On my way to college, the train went to the college, passed the stop, and came back to the same station where I got on. And I woke up, and I was thinking, no. I'll just go home and finish the nap. But at the end of the day, we used to hold iftar our Muslim students club. With all these exhaustion and tiredness, with full spirituality and excitement, then as a group, we will go to our local mosque and pray at night. So with exams and studies and all that, I might have not been able to give you a reflection that time. But now that the years have advanced and location has changed, now it is more that I have been involved in different mosques in the area. Now I have these communities whom I go and see, pray with, sometimes break fast with, and they're our friends. In my previous talk, I've mentioned, this is what I love about it. There are many many of us here from many different backgrounds.

You get to share the food. You get to share and experience the way they spend their day. I cannot eat a lot, but I'm a gourmet person. I enjoy that aspect of trying new things and learning about them, and I love to cook. So giving them iftar. And our prophet Muhammad said, if you feed a fasting person, you get the as if you fasted. And then, of course, it comes the neighbors, next door neighbor, even though they're from different faith. Because, again, a lesson is that we have to be, mindful of our neighbors.

Doesn't matter what faith they're from. So sharing that. I have built these up over the years here in USA. Beginning was difficult because I had to find it out. We didn't know what to do. Now over the years, we have got to know. So there is a balance of I having time with my family and having a relaxed iftar and take a rest and then go to pray. And there are days I would go to the mosque or go to my friend's house and break fast with them.

So over the years over the change of country, one funny thing I remember, every Muslim majority country, preparation of iftar is such a big deal. I remember they would put a curtain in front of the restaurants so that to respect the fasting people back in Bangladesh so that you don't see it. But nobody can close off the fragrances. Right? So it used to smell like crazy. I remember that. So those are incredible aspects. And then there is Eid, of course, at the end of the month. I told you about my childhood Eid with my family.

But after coming here, now I have been involved in different communities, and we have family and friends too. So Eid, also, we prepare that way. We go to pray in the morning. All everybody and another thing I love, everybody wears their ethnic dresses. So it looks gorgeous. You get to see whoever is wearing what. And the it breaks a conversation also. Throughout the day, visiting each friend's and family's house. It's a very busy day, the Eid day. That also makes you tired at the end of the day. It's a good tired, very happy tired.

Meli  [00:34:22]:

These differences, these contrasts between your youth in Bangladesh and your adulthood, your college years in adulthood in the US, really makes sense. You know, part of it is that shifting from a Muslim majority to a Muslim minority country really makes such a difference for any of us. I mean, that is just a fact of human experience. Are there different foods? I mean, you mentioned in Bangladesh everyone was cooking pretty much the same things. Do you do you find that that is a difference where in in the US, there are Muslims from all over the world, that the food at the iftar's is more varied?

Nayma [00:35:10]:

It's it's adorable because a very American suhoor will be bagel and cream cheese.

Meli  [00:35:16]:

Jewish food.

Nayma [00:35:17]:

Jewish food. Okay. Bagel and cream cheese. And then they feel comfortable breaking fast with cereals and milk sometimes because it's comfort food. Right? I had the privilege to go to a retreat with a bunch of teenagers. We stayed at a house, the all these girls. 2 days, we fasted together. We had lectures.

We prayed, and we, of course, we played also. They're all 13, 14, 15. And we made together, together, and broke fast. And I saw how much the girls, when we made, that stayed. But when we made pancakes and fruits, they just vanished within a heartbeat. So even though these kids might have different origin of background of countries, they're all Americans. So pancake is the big deal, and bowl of fruit was the big deal. And in my cuisine, whatever we make, we not necessarily make that for the rest of the year, but I kind of like to make that during Ramadan. It again has a memory.

Meli  [00:36:30]:

The food is food is always so important.

Nayma [00:36:34]:

Food is beautiful and the topic of fun and conversation and bonding. At the same time, it's a topic the abstaining of it is a topic of one's one becoming more compassionate and caring towards the community and the broader world.

Meli  [00:36:54]:

Thank you for that additional note. Well, Nayma, this has been, again, just a delightful conversation. Thank you so much for coming back on my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I really appreciate this. And to do so during Ramadan, it's a most appropriate bit of timing. Thank you.

Nayma [00:37:14]:

Thank you, Meli. And I felt it the way you said celebration. Today's conversation was an addition to the celebration. It was really lovely. Enjoyed it very much as always. Thank you very much.

Meli  [00:37:29]:

Thank you so much for listening. This Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. In that research, I explore how Jews, Christians, and Muslims live their faith, including their sense of God, prayer practice, and how faith is present in daily life. If you'd like to keep up to date about the project, subscribe to my twice monthly newsletter at www.talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.