Exploring Psalm 105 – R. Sally Shore-Wittenberg, Anastasia Solberg, Meli Solomon

Episode 61. 
Rabba Sally Shore-Wittenberg and Anastasia Solberg join me  for a compelling discussion about Psalm 105, one of Rabbi Nachman’s ten Psalms for General Remedy. Using different translations, we delve into its connection to the Passover story and the roles of Joseph and Moses. Themes include  seeking divine intervention, the power of individuals in the face of challenges, and the symbolic implications of seeking God's presence. 

Highlights:
·       Plagues struck Egypt, leading to Israel's exodus.
·       Role of key figures Joseph and Moses.
·       Desperate cry from the pit of despair.
·       Personal agency and divine intervention.
·       Meaning of "seeking God's face".

Books and People Referenced in this episode:
·       Ten Psalms for General Remedy, according to Rabbi Nachman –
        Psalms 16, 32, 41, 42, 59, 77, 90, 105, 137, 150
·       Robert Alter, The Book of Psalms 

·       Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, 1808-1888

·       Gaya Aranoff Bernstein, Psalmsongs 

·       Koren Weekday Siddur (Rabbi Jonathan Sacks translation)

·       Rabbi Nachman of Bratslav, 1772-1810

 
Social Media links for the guests:
Rabba Sally Shore-Wittenberg, Kerhonkson Synagogue – https://www.kerhonksonsynagogue.org
Anastasia Solberg, The Music Institute of Sullivan and Ulster Counties, Ellenville NY – https://misucatskills.org/

 
Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271


Transcript:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/14549506-exploring-psalm-105-r-sally-shore-wittenberg-anastasia-solberg-meli-solomon

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Comments?  Questions? Email  Méli – info@talkingwithgodproject.org
 

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Transcript

Psalm 105 Discussion transcript

Sally, Anastasia & Meli

Meli  [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. Today's episode, number 61, is an experiment that I hope you'll enjoy. Normally, I talk with guests about how they live their beliefs, where religion or spirituality is active in their daily lives. Today, I am inviting you into one way I live my beliefs, which is through study. One such ongoing stream of learning is a weekly text study session with Rabah Sally Shore-Wittenberg and Anastasia Solberg. Sally is the spiritual leader of the Kerhonkson Synagogue in Kerhonkson, New York. Anastasia is a professional musician, a viola player. She teaches and runs the music institute of Sullivan and Ulster Counties in Ellenville, New York. Over the months, we have focused on several parts of the weekday synagogue service. Since the onset of the painful war between Israel and the military arm of Hamas in Gaza, we have turned to the 10 Psalms for general remedy according to rabbi Nachman of Bratislav. Today, we are reading Psalm 105, which you will hear in its entirety early in the recording at about the 4-minute mark. After reading the psalm and making some comments, Sally asks us to consider the use. When would we want to use the Psalm and for what? There are links to books, people, and my guests, as well as the list of the 10 Psalms in the show notes. You are invited to read along and think about what you see in the Psalm. If you want to grab your copy of Psalm 105, now is a good time to pause the recording. Welcome, Sally and Anastasia. Lovely to have you on my Living Our Beliefs podcast. This is really an exciting opportunity to record one of our weekly discussions. Just to orient us all, we are reading the Psalms of General Remedy according to Rabbi Nachman. And today, we are reading Psalm 105. Okay. So let's begin by stating what translations we are reading since all biblical reading is in translation. I have the Robert Alter translation, the Book of Psalms. Anastasia, what do you have today?

Anastasia [00:03:22]:

I have, the Raphael Hirsch translation.

Meli  [00:03:26]:

Okay. And, Sally, what's up for you today?

Sally [00:03:29]:

Today, I'm gonna be using Gaya Aronoff Bernstein's Psalmsongs, which is more of a poetic interpretation, and, the Koren translation, actually.

Meli  [00:03:42]:

Nice. Nice. And I will include links to those books in the show notes so people can tune in to those various translations. Okay. Who'd like to start reading?

Sally [00:03:57]:

For a straight up translation, why don't we use the Alter?

Meli  [00:04:02]:

Sure. Should I read the whole thing through or just some of it?

Sally [00:04:06]:

Yeah. And we'll read our translations if that's okay.

Meli  [00:04:10]:

Sure. Psalm 105. Acclaim the Lord, call out his name. Make his deeds known among the peoples. Sing to him, him to him, Speak of all his wonders. Revel in his holy name. Let the heart of the Lord seekers rejoice. Inquire of the Lord and his strength. 

Seek his presence always. Recall the wonders that he did, his portents, and the judgments he issued, oh seed of Abraham his servant, sons of Jacob his chosen ones. He is the Lord our God, through all the earth his judgments. He recalls his pact forever, the word he ordained for a 1000 generations, which he sealed with Abraham and his vow to Isaac, and he set it for Jacob as a statute for Israel an eternal pact, saying, to you will I give the land of Canaan as the plot of your estate. When they were a handful of men, but a few and sojourners there, And they went about from nation to nation, from 1 kingdom to another people. He allowed no man to oppress them and warned Kings on their account. Touch not, my anointed ones, and to my prophet, do no harm. And he called forth famine over the land.

Every staff of bread he broke. He sent a man before them as a slave was Joseph sold. They tortured his legs with shackles. His neck was put in iron. Until the time of his word had come, the lord's utterance had purged him. The king sent and loosed his shackles, the ruler of peoples set him free, made him a master of his house and ruler of all his possessions, to admonish his princes as he desired and to teach wisdom to his elders. And Israel came to Egypt. Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.

And he made his people very fruitful, made them more numerous than their foes. He changed their heart to hate his people, to lay plots against his servants. He sent Moses, his servant, Aaron, whom he had chosen. They set among them the words of his signs, his portents in the land of Ham. He sent darkness, and it grew dark, yet they did not keep his word. He turned their waters to blood and made their fish die. Their land swarmed with frogs into the chambers of their kings. He spoke, and the swarm did come.

Lice in all their region. He turned their rains into hail, tongues of fire in their land, and he struck their vines and their fig trees and shattered the trees of their region. He spoke and the locust came, grasshoppers without number. And they ate all the grass in their land. They ate up the fruit of their soil. And he struck down each firstborn in their land, the first yield of all their manhood. And he brought them out with silver and gold, and none in his tribes did falter. Egypt rejoiced when they went out, for their fear had fallen upon them.

He spread a cloud as a curtain and fire to light up the night. They asked and he brought the quail. And with bread from the heavens, he say to them. He opened the rock and water flowed. It went forth in parched land as a stream. For he recalled his holy word with Abraham, his servant, and he brought out his people in joy, in glad song, his chosen ones. And he gave them the lands of nations, and they took hold of the wealth of peoples so that they should keep his statutes and his teachings they should observe. Hallelujah.

Anastasia [00:08:29]:

Wow. Right.

Sally [00:08:31]:

So what is this telling the story of? Let's just let's just look at this whole thing that that Meli just read so beautifully. What's what's the premise here?

Meli  [00:08:43]:

Well, it's the Passover story. It's being freed from Egypt.

Sally [00:08:47]:

And how does it begin? What's the setup here?

Anastasia [00:08:51]:

The setup is with Josef. Well, he actually sets up everything. Our covenant with God and then the story of Joseph, and then on to what happened in Egypt. 

Sally [00:09:06]:

Right. Right. So I see verses 1 through 10 as the the original covenant. Right. And then we start with the story of Joseph, which is kind of interesting. We just go from Abraham to Joseph, and we go right into notice. Moshe's name is not mentioned.

Anastasia [00:09:25]:

Maybe because they're just trying to make this connection and how downtrodden gets pulled up, and then that leads to a power that's within us through God that brings us out of Egypt. And the details of that are not as necessary as just the basic outline. And it is a Psalm. It's not an essay.

Meli  [00:09:56]:

He does, though, mention Moses on line 26.

Sally [00:10:00]:

True. True.

Meli  [00:10:02]:

But, otherwise, I mean, certainly, Moses does not hold the the primary place that he really does in the story.

Sally [00:10:14]:

Who has the primary place? Who's the prime actor here?

Meli  [00:10:18]:

God. Which seems appropriate. Right?

Sally [00:10:24]:

Say more?

Meli  [00:10:26]:

Well, the plagues are listed out not quite in the way we say, talk about them at the Passover Seder. But the Psalm runs through them nonetheless in a more active way, which I find interesting. It's not just saying, you know, lice, dam, you know, etcetera etcetera etcetera the way that we list them out in the seder. He turned their waters to blood and made their fish die. There's more action in it than we usually talk about, I think.

Anastasia [00:11:04]:

I'm not so sure. I mean, yes, of course, God is the the main player in this. But somehow I feel like it's, it's encircled by Joseph. I feel like it goes to Joseph and then it goes from Joseph. And that he's sort of the middle point. He's sort of also the middle point of the Psalm itself, and they use him as an example of being on the bottom and then coming up. And that's what leads us out. For me, that's the encirclement. That God is part of this is is clear, but we, as people, are the ones who do the action. So I feel like that's more of yes. Of course. God enacted the the the plagues. That's not a person thing, but we have to get there first. We have to do the work to get there. God is not gonna bring in the plagues if we don't do anything, if we're not the instigator.

Meli  [00:12:08]:

Sally, what do you think of that idea?

Sally [00:12:11]:

I can see where you're coming from, Anastasia, from the last lines that it's upon us to do the mitzvot and do the teachings. And so you could extrapolate that out. And then I think about the Exodus story where we were pretty passive. Mhmm. Moshe was the actor. God was the actor. We I mean, we had to get dressed in a hurry, and we had to go. No. I mean, we had to go. Right? There could be people who didn't wanna go. So in that, I do think we had to have some, you know, like, buy in as it were. I don't see that we were big actors in that story. So looking you know, wanna kinda zoom out into that this is a tikkun aklali, that this is a general remedy. So it begins with talking about God as a wonder maker. Praise God. God acts wondrously. And then we have this, you know, the prequel, the story of Abraham, a little bit of Abraham, the covenant. And then we go from Abraham to Joseph to being downtrodden in feathers. The language they use around Joseph is not language that we use in the Bible, that we hear in the Bible, in the Torah. He's not clapped in irons. So then we go right from Joseph to Moshe and Aaron. Right? There's one line where it says, you know, that things changed between Joseph and Moshe. And then we come to Moshe, and we have the plagues, as you say, Meli. They're they're fleshed out much more than they are in the in the Haggadah and much less than they are in the Torah. It's like a little preci of each plague. And then it goes to the end. Right? And that's where, you know, the Psalm always wants us to go is at the end. And we're let out in gladness and song. We are given land in order that we keep the laws and observe the teachings, right, conditionally. So that's kinda how I see this. And so, again, I wanna ask the question of all of us. When would we use this? Like, we usually ask. What is this a remedy for? When would you wanna read this?

Anastasia [00:14:39]:

I think it's a reiteration of the power of us as individuals. I know you say that we were passive and therefore, you know, and God brings the plagues and we didn't all want to leave, but I still see it as somebody who's downtrodden brings themselves up. Moses as well. I mean, he didn't have a particularly perfect future at the beginning of his life, and he was able to even though he he grew up within the royal family, he was able to still associate with his Hebrew side and respond accordingly. That's not exactly a given and what Josef did was also what happened with Josef, how his life developed, which leads us to, as I said before, leads us to this whole series is also not a given basic how somebody acts. Also the beginning, the covenant, you know, that sort of ties the beginning in with the end. So I feel like when it looks like it's just nothing's going to work, that if we persevere in our hearts and soul, that we will succeed. I think this is this is sort of that remembering that we did come out of Egypt. We did actually get out. We did actually become a people. We did cross the sea. All these things. Yes, I understand the miracles were wrought by God, but if we didn't do anything, it wouldn't matter how many miracles God wrought. And I don't think that he brings us miracles unless we do something first. So even if it's the the work that somebody did in a previous generation moving us forward, and even if the people as general don't move forward immediately, it is that residual, energy that is bringing us forward. We could even tie that all into what's going on right now. And the different facets of how we how we, approach the situation and who's passive and who's not or even during the Holocaust, who's passive and who's not. What brings where? How? What? And so I feel like this is just like a basic reiteration of all of these things. On another note, if I may, I just would like on my translation, verse 18, they they translated, they tortured his foot with fetters. His soul was laid in iron, which is very different than his whatever your translation said, Meli, his neck was in iron, which is for me, means something very, very different. And I'm looking if there's a side note. I see a very long side note, so I'd have to parse out to find out where it's specifically over 18. But what does the Hebrew translation, tell us there?

Sally [00:17:36]:

Meli, how the word is nefesh, and I bet that Alter has a very specific reason for translating it as neck.

Meli  [00:17:47]:

Yeah. His note for his neck was put in iron, line 18. Alter writes literally, quote, “His neck came into iron, unquote, the Hebrew nefesh refers here to the neck, a complimentary parallel to the shackled feet, and certainly does not mean soul.”

Anastasia [00:18:09]:

Do you agree, Sally?

Sally [00:18:12]:

I would be most, arrogant to weigh in against Robert Alter. Nefesh is often referred to as the body, And I can understand how he would say neck as, like, your life flows through your neck. Mhmm. Right? Your breath comes through your neck. So if your neck is constricted, your life is constricted. Also, Koren also has neck. I can understand nefesh also. And and I agree, Anastasia, that that's a completely different sense. And I if I may just pick up on something Anastasia said, that it's a question of that we had to do something, right, in order for God to act. And, really, what did we do that got God's attention was to cry out.

Meli  [00:19:14]:

Mhmm. Yep.

Anastasia [00:19:20]:

But one does have to recognize first that one needs to cry out. That sometimes isn't the case.

Meli  [00:19:28]:

I don't know. I wonder if we cry out when we're really at the bottom of the pit. And it's a cry of desperation. It's a cry of, it is so dark down here that I cannot even see 1 foot in front of me, and so I cry out in desperation. Not, I cry out, oh, I see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel and I'm looking for a hand. I think that's a very different expression.

Anastasia [00:20:01]:

That is true.

Meli  [00:20:03]:

And what and what we say at Passover from the Haggadah is: “And the Israelites cried out and God remembered”. Remembered. Reconnected. Remade whole. I always find that really moving.

Anastasia [00:20:20]:

But my question is, do we have to be at the bottom of the pit before he hears us? Do we have to always go to the bottom of the pit? Can we respond earlier? Do we have to wait until it's

Sally [00:20:33]:

Yeah. I think it's a really important question for people to ask of themselves. Mhmm. Do you wait? Do are you a person who waits until you're down for the for the 3rd count before you reach out for help? Or are people slash God just waiting for you to ask for help whenever?

Anastasia [00:21:01]:

If we use any of our historical examples and, we always excuse everything. Oh, it'll be okay. It's not that bad. I'm not gonna be touched. It's not gonna affect me. With this rhetoric, then, we're not we're not supplying the energy of crying out, even though we know that things aren't quite right. If that energy could be otherwise, manipulated or energized, repeat of the same word earlier, then perhaps we could move things sooner for more forward. I just feel like there's a lethargic attitude and a waiting attitude that I feel like we don't have to be at the bottom of the pit to actually invoke the energy to get the motion for the eternal to help us. But through non action and non-processing of the facts around you, It doesn't allow for enough energy. It's like the idea of Psalms, like, to hear them. When we pray for somebody. If somebody's ill, the more people that pray, the more energy there is focused in that one direction that that will bring forth healing or bring forth a positive, outcome. This idea is the same idea. And I think at the beginning of, for example, the beginning of October 7th, there was a huge outpouring and there was learning and there was psalms and there was praying and there was and now it's sort of become very flat. And I feel like that's if we wanna use a contemporary example.

Meli  [00:22:54]:

I think the question to to pick up on Anastasia, what you were just saying. The question that comes to mind is when you ask, do we need to be at the bottom? Who are we thinking about will help us? In this psalm, it's God. For many people in daily life, it's also God. Right? This is this is why we observe as as we pray. But that's, that's not for everybody, And it's not the only source of help and maybe not the appropriate source of help. I mean, this is this is kind of an open question for me is when I am in need and who isn't in need often, Is God the one who's going to answer my call?

Anastasia [00:23:49]:

I think it depends on who you think God is.

Sally [00:23:53]:

So there's that great story, right, of the guy who is the flood has come, and the guy is on the roof. And people come by to rescue the man, and he says, no. I I'm praying to God. The helicopter and the boat and the the swimming and all, they all come. And he ends up drowning and he goes to see God and he says, God, I was praying to you. Why didn't you come? God said I sent a boat. I sent a helicopter. I sent a person with a floating device. So I think that's exactly it's right both and.

Anastasia [00:24:31]:

Mhmm. And I firmly believe that the energy if we if we think that God is ethereal, we have this energy within us, each of us as a person, and we could, in theory, translate that energy force as being God. And if that energy force is God, by activating that energy force, the more people activate that force, the more we're able to move forward.

Meli  [00:25:04]:

We we as a as a people, we as individuals? Who who who's the we for you?

Anastasia [00:25:12]:

Oh, I just meant people in general.

Meli  [00:25:14]:

Okay.

Anastasia [00:25:14]:

We as a people. But I think in people in general. I think all people have this energy capability, and all people have something of God in them. Their God is not necessarily our God in its physical, in how it's written about. But for me, I think it's all the same God. But the energy force is an easier way for some people to grapple with if they don't want to use the word for God and they don't want to how else do you explain understanding things that are not understandable? How else do you explain the energy that each of us as individuals have if that is not something that comes from a supreme I can't use the word being because it doesn't fit, because being is then, personal.

Meli  [00:26:02]:

Energy?

Sally [00:26:04]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:26:06]:

Divine energy.

Anastasia [00:26:09]:

Thank you.

Meli  [00:26:10]:

Maybe.

Sally [00:26:11]:

Even that suggests God, though.

Anastasia [00:26:13]:

Yeah. Exactly.

Sally [00:26:14]:

You know? I I I don't I don't want us to dance around that that there are plenty of people who don't believe that there's a supreme energy, that there is a God. I mean, period. They don't. And that's great. That's fine. I don't wanna pretend like, oh, we'll just name it something else, and we'll we'll all be in agreement.

Meli  [00:26:33]:

No. Absolutely not. I was not I was not trying to go to that point at all, Sally, but thank you for for clarifying that. I was trying to suggest some alternate wording for Anastasia that was leaning into divinity without it becoming a physical aspect. I think this is the the tricky thing. I think that's what you were tripping on. Correct, Anastasia? In saying being?

Anastasia [00:27:01]:

Correct. I think maybe maybe the word supernatural is, a word that would be more generally accepted. Although, of course, there's many people who don't believe in anything supernatural. I just think channeling of energy is not something that we are necessarily we cannot touch it. We cannot explain it. And I think this is where this concept of God comes from, is through those energies that we cannot touch or explain that then contribute to certain things happening.

Meli  [00:27:34]:

I'm with Sally in in agreeing that there is no languaging that is going to fit every person. Mhmm. And I don't think we ought to try to be all in agreement. I think that's a hopeless mission and it diverts our attention from naming things appropriately for us, individually or for us as a community. So that's one point. So God, divine, Hashem, Jesus, Allah, There are lots of words for the divine. Or you say, I don't believe in the divine. I don't believe there's anything, or I believe it's energy or whatever. I'm not worried about that. I my approach is use whatever language works for you that is meaningful to you.

Sally [00:28:28]:

I'd like to go back to the 1st couple of verses of the Psalm. Let's look at 1, 2, 3, and 4. So we say, basically, praise God, call on God's name, proclaim God's deeds among the people, sing praises, speak of of God's wondrous acts. Exalt in God's holy name. Let all who seek God rejoice. Turn to the lord, to God's might. Seek God's presence constantly. Alright. I wanna read this translation, which is so lovely. And I think it speaks to what we were talking about is where who we calling out to? And this is the trans this is the interpretation by Gaya Aronoff Bernstein. The name of the book is Psalmsongs. One word. “Thank God in public. Write hymn songs and praise his miracles. Seek to find him everywhere so those in search of meaning notice patterns that appear.”

Meli  [00:29:33]:

That's really interesting. So those who notice patterns appear. Is is that correct?

Sally [00:29:40]:

“So those in search of meaning notice patterns that appear.” Right? So this the way I understand what what the poet is saying and a little bit in the language of the Psalm. This is particularly verse 4. Deershu, Hashem Ve'uzo B'kshu Panav Tamid inquire deeply into Yod Hey Vav Hey and Yod Hey Vav Hey's strength. And seek panav, God's presence, God's face always. So there's this hidden and revealed nature of God that's being suggested here that we're invited into. This is the way I understand it, which is perfect because we're coming into Adar, the months of hidden and revealed nature. Even though this is the 1st Adar, the 2nd Adar is more hidden and revealed. But still, Meli had asked, you know, are we calling out to God? Are we calling out to people? Where are we seeking the divine?

Meli  [00:30:52]:

Where are we seeking support and help, really, more broadly?

Anastasia [00:30:58]:

My question is the use of face, since obviously we're not going to see his face. Does that have a different meaning, Sally? Face?

Sally [00:31:11]:

So the word is panav. Mhmm. So panim is face. The language of Psalms, the language of the Tanakh is filled with that. So Bifnim is inside and Lifanim is in front of. The translation I have says presence. Is Panav is presence. How about yours, Meli, with Alter?

Meli  [00:31:35]:

Line 4. Yeah. Yeah. Seek his presence always.

Anastasia [00:31:40]:

Okay. I'm just wondering what it's it's continually used, and what is its implication? Because, obviously, we're not gonna see his face literally. So what does the face? Does it mean face value? Does it mean just a literal front? What does it really mean? What is it really implying? Because we're not going to see his face.

Meli  [00:32:10]:

When I think about face and the way it's spoken of in Torah, it's a very intimate meaning. And there's almost a sense of danger. Right? Moses asks at least once, twice to see God's face. And God says, no. You can't see my face and live. I will put you in the cleft of the rock. I will pass by, and you will see my back.

Anastasia [00:32:43]:

Okay.

Meli  [00:32:44]:

The request is to to have the intimacy to really closely identify his speaking partner. Now who is he, he Moses, who is he in dialogue with? From whom is he getting direction that he then passes on to the Israelites?

Anastasia [00:33:08]:

So in other words, what you're saying is when God says you cannot see my face, basically, you can never see his face. But the face is not necessary. We do not have to see someone to understand what they are about. It's something deeper. That by trying to see his face, to actually physically see him, you're defeating the purpose and the energy and everything of God. So then that's why I go back to then what does seeing his face mean? Does that mean an understanding? Understanding that you can't see, but it's the what comes from? I'm not sure. I understand what you're saying, Meli. But then that contradicts the usage of it all over the place.

Anastasia [00:33:56]:

Unless it has a certain meaning through that context, that means it's not a physical thing.

Meli  [00:34:03]:

I'm not quite sure I'm tracking you, Anastasia, on this point. The sense I have is that part of God saying you can't see my face is to make the divine human distinction.

Anastasia [00:34:18]:

Mhmm.

Meli  [00:34:18]:

That having a face and having that connection is is a deeply human and, I would say, animal. Right? It's a being, and God is distinct from that, is the nonbeing. So I I think that's one aspect.

Anastasia [00:34:35]:

I agree.

Meli  [00:34:35]:

The other, I suppose, is the is the power differential I mentioned earlier. But a a third thought is we do, in fact, as people, as as animals, we read a lot from our faces. Right? This is why a video call or, really, in person is a better conversation than on the telephone. Though, there are benefits to the telephone because you can say things that where you feel a sense of privacy, right, because you don't see. And people talk about now I can't even think of what religion or culture talks about eyes being the window of the soul. Mhmm. Right? So I so I think you have a really important point there, but I do see this distinction.

Anastasia [00:35:32]:

Sally, can you give me light on that face business? I understand exactly what Meli says and I agree with you, But then I just don't understand why it gets used. And yes, Meli, your idea that it's a more intimate relationship, I still don't know why that word is being used over and over again and if it maybe has some other meaning.

Sally [00:35:55]:

My feeling on this is that, first of all, the language of Torah is a very it's a very small vocabulary. It it's not a deeply it's not what I would call a rich language. You have words that mean they're opposites. Biblical, especially Torah Hebrew. It's it's a it's a small language or maybe 500 words or something. It's very small. So if we're thinking about the Torah that we received, it's written using language that was available of God's face. There was not a word for presence. There was a word for face. And, Meli, speaking to your point, God says about Moshe that I speak to him face to face. He does use that actual language. However, what I think is really maybe speaks to what Meli was getting to about, you know, what is this God's face thing or or what, and and Anastasia was asking. In the Torah, it is suggested that the Kohanim, when they don't in the future, when there's no Moshe, when they don't have an answer to something, they're going to, use this thing called the Urim and the the the Tummim. Right? This this, you know, one of those, like, magic balls. Yes. No. You know? I don't know what it is, but it's this thing that goes on the chest of the the Kohen Gadol. Isn't that interesting that it goes on the heart space of the Kohen as the Kohen comes and asks God for an answer. And then the answer comes in this thing, in this Urim and Thummim that's on the Kohen's chest. Right? And and the the Quakers would call this the inner teacher. Deep wisdom. So speaking to God face to face. Going back to what Anastasia said about the spark of divine that is in all of us. Is it accessing that spark of wisdom that was implanted in our soul? I don't know. Just a question.

Anastasia [00:38:29]:

What is this breastplate made of?

Sally [00:38:33]:

I'd have to look it up, Anastasia.

Anastasia [00:38:36]:

I'm just wondering if it's got any kind of stones or metals or something that have a certain energy that can be activated.

Meli  [00:38:48]:

Okay. Lots of great questions. We are going to have to leave it there, but this has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you, Sally, for suggesting this idea, and may the studies long continue.

Sally [00:39:08]:

Amen. Amen. So good to be with all of you. Wishing you all blessings for a good month, a month of 

Anastasia: 

joy. 

Sally: 

A month of completion and a month of joy. This is our extra Adar, a month where you give yourself time to catch up with the things you wanna catch up with, and a Shabbat shalom.

Anastasia [00:39:34]:

Thank you, Meli.

Meli  [00:39:35]:

Shabbat shalom. Thank you all. Shabbat shalom. Okay. Bye bye. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to get notified when new episodes are released, hit the subscribe button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be sent directly to info@talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. Thank you so much. Till next time.