The Scrolls of Deborah – Esther Goldenberg

Episode 56.
Ever since Esther picked up the Torah in high school, she has been curious about the missing bits of scripture which bridge decades of many men’s lives and most women altogether. Her love for stories led her to imagine possible stories to fill those gaps in Torah. With scripture as inspiration, Esther’s historical fiction writing is a process of wonder and discovery. Figures and narrative turns appear seemingly unbidden in her mind. Her newest novel, The Scrolls of Deborah, is the life-story of Deborah, the nurse maid of Rebekah. A large family network surrounds those two central figures, expanding our sense of Rebekah’s family and life. By filling in the narrative gaps, Esther brings these distant biblical figures alive, giving the contemporary reader an opportunity to imagine life in biblical times.  

The Scrolls of Deborah is the first of a trilogy, and will be released in February 2024, though it is currently available for pre-order anywhere you buy your books.

Highlights:
- Raised Conservative and now follows Traditional Jewish practices her own way. 

- Imagination and creation of stories

- Connection between breath and faith

- Calls the Divine Ya, a shortened form of the Name – YHVH – normally pronounced Adonai

- Incorporates belief into daily life through breath practice

- The moon is an important celestial connection to divinity

- Daily life influenced by the Torah

 References:
Anita Diamond – The Red Tent

Sue Monk Kidd – The Book of Longings

Did Jesus Have a Baby Sister? – Dory Previn song covered by Sweet Honey in the Rock and others

Social Media links for Esther:
Website – https://www.esthergoldenberg.com

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271


Transcript:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/14144469


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The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. When you hear about how observant Christians, Jews and Muslims live their faith, new ideas and questions arise:  Is your way similar or different?  Is there an idea or practice that you want to explore?  Understanding how other people live opens your mind and heart to new people you meet. 


Comments?  Questions? Email  Méli at – info@talkingwithgodproject.org

The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/

Transcript

Esther Goldenberg transcript

The Scrolls of Deborah

Meli  [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, May Lee Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking With God project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talking with god project .org. This is episode 56, and my guest today is Esther Goldenberg. A native of Chicago, she holds a degree in psychology from the University of Illinois. She is a freelance author, educator, and public speaker. Esther also leads workshops and bibliodramas. Once a reluctant reader, but always someone who enjoyed a good story, she developed a passion for writing. Her debut biblical fiction novel, The Scrolls of Deborah, will be released in February 2024 and is currently available for preorder. Esther continues to write and teach students of all ages. She enjoys adventures with her children, chanting with her neighbors, and walks in nature. Esther lives in Israel, and her social media links are listed in the show notes. Hello, Esther. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I'm so pleased to have you on today.

Esther [00:01:50]:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Meli  [00:01:54]:

I'd like to begin with my usual first question. What is your religious and cultural identity?

Esther [00:02:01]:

In no particular order, I am American. I am Israeli. I am Jewish, And I identify as traditional. I grew up conservative, but currently I identify as traditional.

Meli  [00:02:14]:

And what does traditional mean to you?

Esther [00:02:17]:

To me, it means that I incorporate the traditions that I find meaningful in ways that are meaningful to me. So traditional to me might look different than traditional to somebody else. But according to the understandings that I have of the traditions, I find them very meaningful, and I try to incorporate them into my life.

Meli  [00:02:39]:

Other Jews I have interviewed who self-described as traditional, basically, it seemed like another way to say orthodox, but they didn't like what orthodox meant to the wider world. Is that how you feel?

Esther [00:02:51]:

I don't think that anybody who is orthodox would consider me to be orthodox, and I don't consider myself to be orthodox either. But I do incorporate the traditions, for example, Shabbat. I'm not Shomer Shabbat. I don't keep Shabbat according to the laws, But I do keep Shabbat and observe the Shabbat. I mark it I mark the beginning, I mark the end, and I have that day or that 25-hour period be different for me. Same with keeping kosher. I'm actually vegan, so it's kind of like keeping kosher by default, but it's purposeful. I don't know that somebody would look at the laws of Kashrut and say, oh, yeah, she keeps kosher. She's doing it right. If so, they might see it as happenstance. For me, it's very purposeful, and for me, it's very connected with my interpretation of the Jewish intention, and so I consider that to be traditional. I celebrate the holidays. I insert my own holidays sometimes too, and my own rituals sometimes too. So I would definitely not consider myself to be orthodox, But I do consider myself to be traditional in my way.

Meli  [00:03:59]:

According to that description, I'm also traditional, but I absolutely would not use that term for myself.

Esther [00:04:05]:

I understand that because tradition implies a lot of things. It it implies that it has been a tradition for a long time. I do read Torah, but for many centuries, only men read Torah. So for me, that could be one example.

Meli  [00:04:20]:

I also understand you mentioned that you are American and Israeli.

Esther [00:04:26]:

I was born and raised in America, And I spent 3 years in Israel after college, but decided to come back to America afterwards and spent basically, all of my adulthood in America after that with strong connections to Israel, but not living there. And then during COVID, I actually made Aliyah and moved to Northern Israel where I've lived for the last 3 years up until just a few weeks ago.

Meli  [00:04:55]:

That is a nice opportunity to just acknowledge the current war between Israel and Hamas. You know, it's just an awful situation. This is not a political show. We are not going to get into that topic. I do want to just acknowledge that as Jews, this is part of the headspace, especially for you as somebody who's made Aliyah, who has moved to Israel. But we are here to talk about some critical ways that your faith is present in your life. Mostly that takes the form of your writing. You have a new book. It's called The Scrolls of Deborah. I'm not quite sure whether it's out and available now or is coming.

Esther [00:05:41]:

It's available now for preorder.

Meli  [00:05:44]:

And when do you expect it to be released?

Esther [00:05:46]:

In February.

Meli  [00:05:48]:

I understand from your website that this is not your 1st published book, that there were 2 earlier nonfiction books, A Story Every Week: Torah Wisdom for Today's World, and The Out Of The Box Bat Mitzvah: A Guide to Creating a Meaningful Milestone. Let's talk about the novel since that is the new book. Like to start with the title, why the title, The Scrolls of Deborah?

Esther [00:06:22]:

Well, thank you for that question. So this novel is the story of Deborah, who is the nursemaid of Rebecca. And she has only one verse in the Torah, and it talks about her death and her burial. But the novel is the story of her life, and she dictates the story of her life to Joseph, the Joseph who we're familiar with from Genesis. Some people know him as having a coat of many colors. He is the scribe of this story for Deborah, and he scribes it in scrolls. And so these are the scrolls of Deborah, the story of her life as she tells it to Joseph.

Meli  [00:07:02]:

So this is what one might call a very minor character in Torah that you have envisioned into the world. Why her? Why that?

Esther [00:07:17]:

Well, that question actually goes to my 2nd novel, which is called 17 Spoons. It is the 2nd in a trilogy, the scrolls of Deborah being the first one. And I wrote 17 Spoons without knowing that it was going to be a part of a trilogy. 17 Spoons is actually Joseph's own story as he tells it himself. And as I was writing that book, I came to a scene where he met his grandparents, Isaac and Rebecca. And when he met Rebecca, he also met Deborah. And I was curious about this character, Deborah. Who was she? I was starting to discover that just a little bit as I was writing 17 Spoons, but I was curious enough that I wanted to dive deeper into her backstory. That's how the scrolls of Deborah came to be. When I say that I wanted to dive deeper into her backstory, what I really mean is I wanted to imagine it because this is all my imagined, story about what might have been for her life during her time and with the matriarchs and patriarchs that she interacted with. But I was so intrigued when I got to meet her through Joseph and 17 Spoons that I was pushed to develop this story for her.

Meli  [00:08:35]:

It's interesting the way you speak of it. You talk about writing fiction like you're discovering something that's out there in the world, but you're actually making all this stuff up. Right?

Esther [00:08:47]:

I mean, there are some things that come directly from the Torah. Most of it, I am making it up for those spaces between the lines. But that said, it does really feel like a discovery for me. Sometimes the writing, the air quotes “writing”, happens just when I'm daydreaming, just when I'm, you know, looking at the sky or going for a walk, staring out the window and imagining it. So, yes, it is imagination, but for me, it sometimes feels like discovery. Even when I'm writing a scene, I can surprise myself and say, oh, that happened? I had no idea that was going to happen. And so for me, it's such a process of awe and wonder because it really feels as if it is a discovery sometimes.

Meli  [00:09:35]:

Now we're here to talk about you, but I can't, I can't refrain from asking. Is this a very common experience among fiction writers? Do you hear other novelists talk in this way?

Esther [00:09:49]:

I sometimes do hear about it that way. If you think about the phrase, the muse. Right. It's as if the muse told me something, or sometimes people will say, I downloaded this. I don't know if those phrases are really exact for my experience, but whether you think of it as discovery or the imagination gone wild, it it really is a process where it unfolds for me. And I have heard of other novelists say, you know, that the characters surprised them or that they wanted to get to know the characters or things like that. So I don't know how common or uncommon my experience is, but I have heard of it before.

Meli  [00:10:29]:

And it sounds like it's a process that you enjoy. Your voice was more energetic. You were enthusiastic. I hear the wonder in your voice when you describe it.

Esther [00:10:40]:

Wonder is the perfect word. It really is full of wonder. Wonder-ful. I'll give you an example. Since moving to Israel, I have had the privilege of being in some women's circles around a bonfire in the woods in the evening, different phases of the moon may be singing, sharing stories, just as wonderful as you might hope and expect it to be. And there have been times when I've sat in those circles physically and emotionally present with the other women in the circle while also simultaneously feeling like I'm time traveling. It feels like I could be in a circle of women 1,000s of years ago, these experiences, in addition to, like I said before, walking in nature or staring out the window, These experiences are so expansive for me that the story just unfolds.

Meli  [00:11:36]:

I'd like to touch back on the inspiration for the book. You mentioned that it emerged from the 2nd book in the trilogy, the 17 Spoons. That is also an interesting development of things emerging and evolving in quite some surprising ways. Is that book out? Since it's the 2nd book in the trilogy, I'm guessing that is not out in the world, but maybe it is.

Esther [00:12:04]:

The 2nd book is not out yet. The Scrolls of Deborah will be released in February 2024, and 17 Spoons is scheduled for February 2025.

Meli  [00:12:15]:

And what about the 3rd book in the trilogy? Is that planned or is that, where’s that?

Esther [00:12:21]:

The 3rd book in the trilogy is about one-third written at this point, and I don't wanna give anything away about it just yet because I don't even know what's going to happen as you can probably surmise, but that should come out in February 2026. That's the plan.

Meli  [00:12:37]:

What inspired you to begin the 17 Spoons book?

Esther [00:12:41]:

Well, it was 2018, and I was having a difficult time in my family, and I was up in the middle of the night. I couldn't fall back asleep. I picked up my phone to read on my phone because I thought certainly that would put me back to sleep in an instant. I don't generally read on my phone, but it was nearby. I didn't need to get up. The book on my phone happened to be a book by Janine Roth. The book that I was reading at the time was This Messy Magnificent Life, and it talked about basically how she and her husband rebuilt their life after a difficult time. And in the book, she mentioned something about the number of breaths she had taken during this time period. And when I read that, I had what we've referred to now as download, which was the story of Joseph's death. And 17 Spoons begins with the story of Joseph's death. It begins with him recounting how many breaths he may have taken in his lifetime. And from there, he reflects back on his life. I didn't go into this with the intention of writing any book at all. It was just I was reading This Messy Magnificent Life, and suddenly my life started to take on some unexpected order. And writing 17 Spoons was such a gift because it was this world of wonder, in this world of discovery. And in the Torah, Joseph is born, and then very soon after, there's the whole situation with the coat and being thrown into the pit. That's when he's a teenager. I remember he goes to Egypt, and then he becomes, like, 2nd in command. Decades pass again, and there are all these gaps in his story. And I was just so curious about what helped him to become who he was and what happened behind the scenes that then might make you go, oh, that's why. And these things just kept popping to me and coming into the story. And like I said, at one point, he comes to meet his grandparents, and along with them is Deborah, Rebecca's nursemaid. From there, the first story started to expand.

Meli  [00:15:02]:

One of the things that you're really highlighting here, Esther, is the gaps, the many gaps, the people, the names, the time periods that Torah is silent about. Has this desire of yours to kinda fill in those gaps been a long-standing interest of yours?

Esther [00:15:27]:

It has been, actually, and I can pinpoint where it started, which was at some point in high school, I don't know what led me to pick up the Torah and start reading it in English. I must have been bored and Certainly didn't have a phone or any electronics to keep me busy, but I had gone to Hebrew school all of my childhood, 6 hours a week, and I had learned a lot of Prayers and a lot of Jewish history and some Hebrew, all these things. And and I knew very well the story of Abraham becoming the 1st monotheist because he, you know, broke the idols in his father's shop And blamed the action on the largest idol. I was very familiar with that story. And so when I was reading the Torah Those days in high school, I was looking through it, and I saw Abraham's birth. And I saw that the next thing that happens in the Torah To Abraham is his marriage. And I thought, wait a minute. What? What about this story that I know so well? This is the story about Abraham is how he became a monotheist, and yet it wasn't in the Torah.

Esther [00:16:36]:

And so I'm sure that was a very defining moment for me. It helped to guide me to imagine what happens in those gaps. Now the imagining really happened much more as an adult, Much later in life, but I think that was the seed.

Meli  [00:16:53]:

What I'm hearing, Esther, is that really through your child, and you'd mentioned that you were raised within a conservative synagogue setting. And it sounds like not only where you well educated Jewishly, but it was a positive aspect of your life, something that you cherished and valued to the extent that you picked up the Torah and started reading just on your own in English. Is is that a fair representation?

Esther [00:17:25]:

I'd say it's close. I'd say that I cherished and valued it From my young adulthood on, maybe my early twenties. And when I really started to show that interest and feel that connection, I was lucky that I already had a solid background.

Meli  [00:17:42]:

You mentioned that you've shifted from conservative to traditional, So there have been changes in your observance and your beliefs perhaps as well.

Esther [00:17:53]:

Yes, definitely. I mean, over time, I like to stay open to new ideas and new thoughts and growth. I don't wanna be stagnant. It's okay to find your understanding in your youth and then hang on to it, but I'm not sure that I've found complete understanding just yet, and so I'm open to learning more and, experiencing more and discovering more.

Meli  [00:18:17]:

I'd like to hear more about how your practice and how your beliefs are showing up in your life aside from the writing. This is clear. Where else does it show up?

Esther [00:18:29]:

Well, one thing that does kind of connect to the book because I've brought it to the book is that my preferred way to refer to god is yeah. I feel like the word god is very loaded and conjures up Pictures that don't align with my beliefs. And using the word you does align better for me. It's Short for the four letter name for God, which is in English, I suppose, would be y h w h. Yeah would be a shortened version. I said I include this in the book, but it came from me to the book or from tradition to me and then to the book. I use the word Yeah, the name Yeah, in my daily life, and I use it in practice with the breath. I actually have, little alarms on my phone that say I am here.

Esther [00:19:22]:

It's like Hineni, I am here. And The times that those alarms go off, I take what I call an I am here breath just to be reminded that I am here in this awe and wonder, And I might have been doing the daily grind, but just pause for a moment. Take the deep breath. And connect with all that was, with all that will be, With all that is, in the wonder of all of that. And in addition, I've incorporated whenever I see that the time of day is a palindrome. Maybe it's 949. Then I will pause and take a breath. So I do live in this world of movement news and needing to get things done.

Esther [00:20:21]:

It's just a reminder for me that I also live in this world of wonder and connection and Was, is, will be. For me, that's possibly one of the most powerful ways that I incorporate this into my life.

Meli  [00:20:39]:

How often during the day does that little reminder bell go off?

Esther [00:20:43]:

That one goes off twice a day. I don't actually know when when it is. And as my phone moves from different time zones, it could be at different times. It's not always the same time. And truthfully, my calendar will remind me of other things, like I have a podcast interview, and so it dings when I do that too. And I just I just stop and breathe. I'm just thankful for the reminder because otherwise, I might not have paused.

Meli  [00:21:10]:

Muslims I've interviewed have spoken of their 5 daily prayers in that way. You know, a brief moment to disconnect from the busyness of work, Have a short prayer, some breathing, a little body motion. Is there anything else in terms of how beliefs influence your daily life that you'd like to mention?

Esther [00:21:34]:

Well, the Torah influences my daily life, And so I suppose my belief that the Torah is an important guidebook would go with that question. The Torah for me is a book of Stories that can teach us things, and sometimes it teaches us what we want to do, and sometimes it teaches us what we don't want to do. But all these stories are opportunities to learn things about ourselves. I have a story in the book, in the scrolls of Deborah, in which Deborah is leaving her homeland. And she's not sure where she's going, and she doesn't know what lies ahead of her, and she's Pretty certain that it's going to be rough. And so she has a lot of fear and uncertainty ahead of her. Just before she leaves, she's given a drum. The woman who gives her the drum says to take it with her because even though she might right now that she's not going to have joy.

Esther [00:22:33]:

When joy comes, she wants to be prepared with a drum. I put that in the book because of the time when The children of Israel crossed the Red Sea, and Miriam leads our women in song and dance and has her timbrell. One question I've always had or one thought that I've always had is if Miriam and the women are playing their instruments after crossing the sea, They brought their instruments with them. Even though it was a tough time, they were preparing for better times ahead. Just now, as I'm in America, while my actual home, as well as my heart are in Israel, I reflect on the story that I wrote in the scrolls of Deborah, the story that's in the Torah. And for me, it is is not only a guidepost, but an opportunity to feel less alone, to be reminded that for generations, people have struggled in these ways and that there is somewhat of a road map, and I can choose to follow that road map or to make my own road map. This is just a story for me to take and use how it fits in my life right now. Right now, how it fits is that it's Comfort because I'm not alone.

Esther [00:23:46]:

It is wisdom that joy will come again or encouragement that joy will come again. And so my belief that the Torah has a lot to give us really guides my life because I have those stories inside of me all the time.

Meli  [00:24:02]:

And you know the scripture so well, so you can really tap into that. When you think about the reader of the scrolls of Deborah. Does the reader need to know a lot about Torah?

Esther [00:24:16]:

The reader can, but they definitely don't need to. So a person who doesn't know anything at all about the Torah could just pick up this book, and it can just be a multi generational family saga, like historical fiction, but during biblical times. And somebody who does know about the Torah Will be somewhat familiar with some of the characters, more so familiar with their names. Because as I said before, there's not a lot about the characters In the Torah, there's a lot that's skipped. So whether you know these characters from before or you don't, This gives the opportunity to really begin to relate to them or not. Right? And take the pieces that provide connection for you And incorporate them into your story, and reject the ones that don't. That's fine.

Meli  [00:25:06]:

In reading your book, I found myself getting, frankly, a little confused. When I was deep into it, I was thinking, I should have started a little family tree. And I was wondering, was that my own lack of knowledge, or did you shift some family relationships?

Esther [00:25:30]:

Well, I wanna thank you for reading an advanced copy of the book because the actual book does have a family tree. And so it should hopefully be easier for the other readers. There are a lot of characters who are mentioned at the beginning, but if they're a major character, then their name and their relationship to the other characters are now listed at the beginning of the book.

Meli  [00:25:54]:

Did you make changes to relationships, or did I just misremember how some people were connected?

Esther [00:26:03]:

I did make some changes. I did take some literary license. Most of them were changes that I feel that I can explain based on the text. The biggest example of that probably is that In the book, I say that Deborah is the daughter of Digania, and I say that Digania is the daughter of Hillel, And I say that Hallel is the daughter of Abraham and Sarah. Now Hallel is never mentioned by name in the Torah or any Midrash that you might pick up other than my book, The Scrolls of Deborah. Right? Nor am I aware that anybody has said that Abraham and Sarah had a daughter. But in, the Torah portion that we recently read just last week at the time of this recording, the portion was Lech says that god spoke to Abraham and told Abraham to leave where he was and go to a land that god would show him. And then Abraham packs up and he leaves.

Esther [00:27:01]:

And he takes with him his wife and his nephew And all the property that they had acquired and the soul that they had made while living in Quran. I take the interpretation that the Soul that they had made while living in Haifa was their daughter, Halal.

Meli  [00:27:20]:

On a larger level, I did find that The structure of using scrolls was just so appropriate to the time and as a structural device. I thought that was a a really good and effective decision.

Esther [00:27:36]:

Oh, thank you so much.

Meli  [00:27:38]:

On a tonal level, I found that the book was reading as a coming of age and almost a fantasy book. How does that sit with you?

Esther [00:27:48]:

I can definitely relate to the coming of age part. It really is Deborah's whole life story, her birth to death, And a lot of that is her coming of age. And then when she meets Rebecca, Rebecca's coming of age as well. And then, you know, later on, Esau and Jacob are born, and there's They're coming of age to recount, so I can definitely relate to that. Fantasy, I'm not sure about that one. If you experienced it that way, then great. For me, when I think of fantasy, I think of more sci fi. Now that even has a different name.

Esther [00:28:22]:

So And I have read actually another biblical fiction book that does incorporate sci fi, time travel, and all these other things, which my book is not. My book is intended to read just as if it was a period piece. So I don't know about the fantasy piece. If you have other Examples. I'm happy to think of them.

Meli  [00:28:42]:

I hear what you're saying, Esther. And, yes, fantasy might not be quite the right word. Was the word I jotted down, but, you know, I do appreciate this is historical fiction, and that's obviously very different from science fiction. But I think the reason that word popped up was because you were imagining you were imagining all these things. You were filling in the gaps of scripture, and and I think that's why it came up in my mind. Who do you see as the audience for this novel?

Esther [00:29:16]:

So it's not intended for children. I'll say that right out of the gate. Other than that, I think it's for people who enjoy Historical fiction novels, as well as people who have an interest or a curiosity in the Torah or in tradition. You don't need to know anything of Jewish tradition or of the Torah in order to read it. And at the same time, there are stories in here that are intended to imagine how some traditions may have come about. So if somebody has an interest In Jewish tradition or an interest in the Torah, in scripture, an interest in having a fuller experience almost even though it's a fuller imaginative experience of what life might have been like back in those days. It's for them. Now there's a strong women's peace in this book, and it can certainly be read by and enjoyed by men.

Esther [00:30:15]:

And some of the early readers have been men who have enjoyed the book very much. There's also a bonding like a sisterhood. The women's tribe, It's been described as a feminist retelling. I don't know how I feel about that description or not, but what it does do is give An angle from the women's point of view, whereas the Torah is more from the men's point of view. And so this says, you know, what were the women doing At that time, what were their songs? What were their struggles? What were their relationships? What were their feelings and beliefs? The Torah answers some of those questions for men, not all, I don't think. And the scrolls of Deborah can't possibly answer all of those questions either, But it does purposefully try to answer them imaginatively for the women.

Meli  [00:31:05]:

Yeah. Fair enough. Hearing you explain that, Esther, 2 other similar things came up in my mind. 1 is the now very famous novel The Red Tent. And that, as I recall, had a very strong women's perspective, you know, reimagining women into Torah element, and I think that's part of why it became so popular and and widely read. The other reaching back to your comment about Abraham and Sarah taking the soul with them, and you imagine that was a daughter. There's a wonderful black women's acapella group called Sweet Honey and the Rock, and they have a song that I just adore, did Jesus have a little sister? And it's very much along the lines of what you wrote. So I think I'm going to have to go dig up that song and and take a listen again.

Esther [00:32:04]:

Thank you for that referral because I will go dig up that song as well. I love Sweet Honey in the Rock, and I love The Red Tent. And another book along the lines of The Red Tent is a book by Sue Monk Kidd called The Book of Longings, in which she imagines imagines and tells the story of the wife of Jesus. And so both The Red Tent and The Book of Longings, I would say that The Scrolls of Deborah is a book people who enjoyed those 2 books, when I tell people about The Scrolls of Deborah, often I'll say, have you heard of the book The Red Tent? And they'll say, oh, yes, I loved that book. And I say, well, it's kinda like that. And they're so grateful because there wasn't another book like that yet. The Red Tent and The Scrolls of Deborah do have some overlap in characters and in time period of the Torah, And I imagine it differently than Anita Diamond did. But I absolutely loved The Red Tent, and I think one of the things that I loved about it the most, in addition to the Story that she created is just the fact that she created it. And so what I hope for readers who really love The Red Tent and the book of longings and the scrolls of Deborah is that they will also feel the freedom to imagine it differently. Please take my story and love it if you do. And if you think something happened differently, please imagine it your way. But just have that expansive mind of the possibility of diving deeply into the story and feeling that connection.

Meli  [00:33:40]:

Yeah. Great. These are all good references. I will put all of these into the show notes so people can check these things out and expand their sense of the scripture and how they might relate to it. It is such a wonderful example of the heart of the work I do. Right? How is faith and observance and your beliefs alive in your life? 

Esther [00:34:03]:

For me, so much of my connection with Ya, with God, if you will, is about all just the wonder, as you said, of creation and existence, and there are definitely things that are painful here. There are also things that are just so spectacular. Long, long ago, the Israelites built a temple and built another temple, and now they build these beautiful synagogues. And these are visual reminders that will hopefully allow us space to congregate and also hopefully allow us that connection with the awe. And for me, I feel that way about the moon. You might have noticed that the moon is very present in this book as it actually was in The Red Tent. When I see the moon regardless of its phase, it's just a visual reminder for me About the things that I don't see. I mean, I see the moon, but I don't see the millions or countless, really, stars that are blocked by whatever it is, the clouds, the light pollution, the atmosphere, whatever it is. Right? But it's all out there. And for me, the moon is a physical space. Even though my body is not physically there, the moon is a physical space for me to connect with that awe.

Meli  [00:35:22]:

This word awe, I wanna dig into this for a moment. The days around the high holy days are described as the days of awe. And the sense I have had of awe is that in in this context, it has kind of 2 elements. 1 is wonder and the other is, well, fear is the word that comes to mind. Being connected to a god or yeah that is very powerful and much, much bigger than we are. Is that your sense of awe, or do you sends it some other way.

Esther [00:36:04]:

So for me, the word awe implies something to which I would just say, wow. I'm almost speechless because it is so big and so vast and so all encompassing. It almost takes all of my senses at once and it just makes me go, wow. And even though this vastness contains things that I might respond to with fear, It's still to me the the main idea for me of the awe is wonder and wow.

Meli  [00:36:40]:

And not a sense of God as judge. Right? That's not part of the awe for you.

Esther [00:36:47]:

For me, that is not a part of the awe at all. For me, I don't have a sense of God as judge. It's not a part of my feeling of Ya or my understanding of all that is that we still don't really have a great name for. But for me, when I really pause and say that name, I'm actually not capable of feeling fear during that moment.

Meli  [00:37:18]:

This whole business about the breath, using breath very intentionally, connecting to the wonder, connecting to yeah. And what I'm now realizing in this moment is you can't breathe and feel fear at the same time. Right? When we feel fear, we either, like, hyperventilate, which is not a sustainable way of breathing, or we freeze and we actually hold our breath. So that's really interesting. That's really food for thought.

Esther [00:37:52]:

Well, if I can bring this back to the question of tradition, I'd like to say that this name of God that is the the deep breath or that I interpret as the deep breath. I'm not the only person who interprets the name of God as the deep breath. To me, this is traditional. This comes from the tradition. This is the four-letter name of God that could be pronounced as a deep breath. To me, that is very tied into the tradition. And there has been evolution of tradition over the 1,000 of years we've been here, and there will continue to be evolution of tradition. There is no one way. But the dominant way has become to refer to God in English as God or in Hebrew as Adonai, which means my Lord or my Master. These are names that for me personally, feel like a separation between me and yeah. Whereas when I use the traditional name for God, and I pause and I take that breath, then I feel connected to the droplets of water that first came on Earth, and I feel connected to the footsteps in the mud that the dinosaurs left. And I feel connected to people on the other side of the planet and the other side of time and all of that put together to me is the oneness of God. I come to that through the traditional saying of the name.

Meli  [00:39:21]:

Thank you for those additional words. Well, we have spoken many words. Our time is now coming to a close. So I do want to ask, where can someone find your book and enjoy it.

Esther [00:39:36]:

Thank you. The easiest place is either esthergoldenberg.com or wherever you like to buy your books. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your local mom and pop bookstore. You should be able to preorder it from there too.

Meli  [00:39:50]:

Alright. Well, Esther, this has just been delightful to speak with you, to learn more about your life and how you practice your Judaism, how it shows up in your life, and really to dive into your new novel, The Scrolls of Deborah. It was an enjoyable read, and I encourage everyone in the audience to pick up a copy and give it a read.

Esther [00:40:14]:

Thank you so much for this conversation.

Meli  [00:40:22]:

Like to get notified when new episodes are released, hit the subscribe button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be sent directly to info@talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options. Go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. Thank you so much. Till next time.