Flipping the Script – Méli Solomon (with Beatriz Nour)

Episode 51.
My friend and fellow podcaster, Beatriz Nour, takes the helm for this special episode. Beatriz normally hosts her In-betweenish podcast, a wonderful show all about people, like herself, who inhabit multiple cultures. For this episode, we have switched roles, and talk about my personal faith path, sorting out my sexuality, choosing Judaism and deepening my practice. It was fascinating to be a guest on my own show and be asked questions I had never considered.

Highlights:
00:06:12 Didn't connect with Christianity, explored Jewish faith.
00:09:17 Multiple major life changes caused turmoil.
00:13:33 Parents saw lesbianism as hard but acceptable.
00:23:34 Religious freedom is important; misuse is common.
00:26:31 Talking with God Project started in Berlin, 2014.
00:30:12 Unique experience being part of German synagogue.
00:31:28 Active member of an egalitarian conservative synagogue with female rabbi; anchor for social life, learning, and Jewish practice.

Social Media links for Beatriz at inbetweenish:
Website – https://www.inbetweenish.net/
Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/0CeFBE0vLq00T67HRa38ugv
Apple – htps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/inbetweenish/id1595556530?mt=2&ls=1
Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/inbetweenish.pod/

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271


Transcript:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/13762300


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The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. When you hear about how observant Christians, Jews and Muslims live their faith, new ideas and questions arise:  Is your way similar or different?  Is there an idea or practice that you want to explore?  Understanding how other people live opens your mind and heart to new people you meet. 


Comments?  Questions? Email  Méli at – info@talkingwithgodproject.org

The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/

Transcript

Flipping the Script transcript
Meli Solomon with Beatriz Nour

Meli  [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meili Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org.

This is episode 51 and is a special episode where my friend and fellow podcaster, Beatriz Noor, takes the helm. Beatriz normally hosts her Inbetweenish podcast, a wonderful show all about people like herself who inhabit multiple cultures. A link to her podcast is in the show notes, and I highly recommend tuning in. For this episode, we have switched roles and talk about my personal faith path, choosing Judaism, and deepening my practice. It was fascinating to be a guest on my own show and be asked questions I had never considered. Hello, Beatriz. Welcome to this special edition of my Living Our Beliefs podcast. Thank you for joining me and taking the helm of my show.

Beatriz [00:01:42]:

Thank you so much for having me in this format. I look forward to this experience. I think it'll be interesting to hear a little bit more about you and your background.

Meli  [00:01:51]:

Well, thank you for doing this with me, and thank you for the suggestion. I appreciate that. So I turn my host position over to you.

Beatriz [00:02:01]:

Well, I'm honored. And, Yeah. I think we'll we'll be getting a little bit personal today. I wanted to start off by asking you. Can you tell me a little bit about your religious identity, your religious upbringing?

Meli  [00:02:15]:

Sure. I'm a Jewish American. I was raised in a nonobservant interfaith family. My mother was protestant, and my father was Jewish. There was no education or anything formal religiously in my childhood.

Beatriz [00:02:32]:

There was never any religious upbringing in the family?

Meli  [00:02:36]:

As a child, we would visit my mother's parents who were regular churchgoing methodists, and going to church was an absolute, you know, required part of the program. Nothing Jewishly other than a Passover Seder and Hanukkah light, there was no education. The 1st time I was in a synagogue with my father was actually when I joined my 1st synagogue in my late thirties. And he came to visit me in Seattle, and we went to services, the Friday night service. And we realized in that moment it was the 1st time we'd sat in a synagogue together. That was a very strange realization for both of us, But that's just the way it was. The interest in religious identity and my religious identity started at my 2nd college, Oberlin College in Ohio, when I was asked by the Hillel rabbi, are you Jewish? Which for most people is a fairly straightforward question. But for me, given my family background, it was not.

Meli  [00:03:46]:

I was rushing. I was late like I always was, and my answer was: Yes. No. Oh, I don't have time. And I ran out. It's funny now. I mean, it's really just an incredibly accurate answer. But in the days following, I realized that is such an insufficient answer. I need to know. I need to decide.

Beatriz [00:04:11]:

And and how old were you at that point?

Meli  [00:04:14]:

About 21, something like that.

Beatriz [00:04:17]:

So you grew up with a Jewish father and a protestant mother who themselves are not religious. I wanna go back to their marriage for a second. That they have a religious wedding because those are 2 different faiths. And I don't actually know enough about either to know if they allow interfaith marriages.

Meli  [00:04:40]:

We need to keep in mind when that was. 

Beatriz 

Right. 

Meli  [00:05:06]:

We're talking post war America. Interfaith marriages were not very accepted. In fact, my father's father did not come to the wedding. He was an orthodox Jew, and it was just really not okay for him. They were married by a rabbi. It was a Jewish ceremony. So let let me take a step back in terms of my parents. They were both raised within their religions. But certainly, as adults, neither of them were believers, neither of them were observant that it really was not a part of their lives.

Beatriz [00:05:25]:

So it's fair to say because your parents didn't Raise you and your sisters in a religious upbringing that neither of you had a Bar Mitzvah? Bat Mitzvah?

Meli  [00:05:39]:

Bat for girls.

Beatriz [00:05:40]:

Bat Mitzvah. Okay.

Meli  [00:05:42]:

None of us had had any of that.

Beatriz [00:05:44]:

So you went through your entire childhood, adolescence. Then you get to college, and you're asked by a rabbi, if you're Jewish, and that's when you start questioning your religious identity. So what happened then? How did you start understanding the 2 religions that your your family bought in by heritage?

Meli  [00:06:12]:

It was very quickly apparent to me that I didn't connect with Christianity at all. 

Beatriz: 

Why? 

Meli  [00:06:54]:

Well, seeing Jesus as my lord and savior was just that that didn't sit with me at all. But what little I knew of the Jewish faith, the seders and stuff that I had, experienced as a child, that felt right to me. So I started exploring that. It was an extremely long, slow journey, exploring different holidays, learning something of the history. I took a couple of courses. I would attend services here, there. I would read. It was not an intensive awakening and jumping into the deep end of the pool.

Beatriz [00:07:02]:

So you you said it's a gradual evolution. Was it months? Was it years? Was it decades?

Meli  [00:07:09]:

I'm guessing that that rabbi's question, was asked of me at 21. I joined my 1st synagogue in my late thirties.

Beatriz [00:07:19]:

So the memory that you were sharing earlier, the first time that you were in a synagogue with your father, you said that was in your thirties. Was that the 1st synagogue that you joined eventually?

Meli  [00:07:31]:

Yes.

Beatriz [00:07:32]:

When you started to show interest in religion, just exploring faith, was that something that you felt that you can bring up with your parents, especially given the fact that they were not religious, or did you feel the need to hide that from them?

Meli  [00:07:46]:

Oh, really interesting question. I don't remember hiding it at all. I think I mean, it was certainly not the Weirdest thing I'd ever done. Although given my family, it was it was pretty out there. As far as I can recall, they were just wondering. Like, what's what's this about? But it was harmless. I was joining an extremely liberal reform synagogue that was almost not even Jewish. The other thing to note in this is and you're quite right to bring up the timeline question. My mother died quite soon after I moved to Seattle. So this engagement with a synagogue was basically quite soon after her death or right in there somewhere. So, you know, in terms of upsetting my mother or something, it was a moot point.

Beatriz [00:08:50]:

Do you think losing a parent? Because oftentimes, there's 2 things that can happen when we grieve a big loss. We can either step away from religion Completely and just be like, nope. Not for me. Or the opposite happens where people become more religious and they try to Seek answers in religion. Do you think that was something that happened with you when your mother passed away?

Meli  [00:09:17]:

It's a really interesting line of questioning, Beatriz, and I I appreciate the sensitivity. It's just a little hard to remember the the timeline so precisely because I had, in a very short amount of time, experienced many major changes in my life. There's a list of 10 major stressors, and I, in about a year and a half, managed to do 8 of them or so. So it was a very rocky, tumultuous time for me. So the list included death of a parent. I moved cross country. I ended a relationship. I finished grad school. After dating women for 15 years, I then started dating men. So that was a big identity change. So I would not put my experience so starkly as I was reaching for God out of crisis. I think that does sometimes happen. I think your assessment of the options is absolutely correct. I don't think that was my experience. I think it was more I've been dabbling around for, what, over 15 years. And now I was living in a city. I knew 1 person, 2 people when I moved there. This was a way to have some community and to deepen this exploration. It was just the right time.

Beatriz [00:10:53]:

A lot of faiths frown upon, You know, non-heterosexual relationships. So it's interesting to be exploring faith at the same time that you're exploring Your sexuality that way, was that ever a problem for you? Like, is it ever a problem you face, like comments from people or anything like that?

Meli  [00:11:14]:

No. And then, in fact, one of the most moving services, you know, in this long period of exploring and trying different things was with a gay and lesbian group in Boston when I was living here. So those 2 elements of my identity we're never in conflict. That that really was not an issue. My parents were very well, my mother, especially, was very upset when I came out to her. Her immediate response was, you know, what did I do wrong? Being a lesbian was a much bigger problem than starting to explore Judaism or not pursuing Christianity. They came around after a while.

Beatriz [00:12:03]:

It's interesting that your your mom had that reaction initially, especially given the fact that she was not a practicing Christian, and she was not religious, really.

Meli  [00:12:14]:

I'm curious about your response because I think I think you're thinking about something, and and I don't know what it is. What what was it about my mom's response to being a lesbian or to exploring Judaism, or what's going through your head?

Beatriz [00:12:30]:

I just thought it was interesting that your mom had that reaction to you coming out Even though she was not religious, because usually and this is maybe my own programming, but I I tie homophobia to religiousness. And that maybe says more about, like, the cultural upbringing I came up with. So I grew up in the Middle East, and in the Middle East, there's a very Big homophobic sentiment in many circles, not in all circles. And usually that's very much tied to Religiosity, whichever religion that comes from, whether it's Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.

Meli  [00:13:06]:

Quite right. Not just in the Middle East. Right? But if you were to talk to most orthodox Jews or evangelical Christians, they would absolutely hold that feeling. And you're right. There is that connection. I think the difference was that I was raised in a culturally liberal household. I don't know. It's it's interesting to reflect on this now so many years past. I do remember talking with my parents at one point about being a lesbian. They saw it as just a hard life because there wasn't so much acceptance. It was not, you know, it was not awful like it was in the fifties. This is post Stonewall, but being gay or lesbian or bi or whatever was not as accepted as it is now, at least in the US, in many parts of the US. So I think for them, that that was the bigger thing. There was no shunning, and there was no, you know, roadblocks. It was more about how do you want your life to go and How easy will it be for you? It was more about that really care for me as an individual.

Beatriz [00:14:25]:

I'm happy to hear that that's where their focus was, because I think a lot of parents do stand in the way of their children and adult children's exploration of self in many different ways. You know? So I'm glad to hear that both In your faith and in your sexuality, your parents didn't really sound in the way.

Meli  [00:14:43]:

Yeah. And you're right. I mean, some some kids get sent to conversion programs where they try to change you.

Beatriz [00:14:51]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:14:52]:

This is an impossibility. You cannot turn a gay person into a straight person. This is does not happen. It is a natural expression of the self.

Beatriz [00:15:03]:

So there was a progression in your Jewish faith. Well, before we get to the progression, I want to ask you about something. Because in my understanding of Judaism, Judaism can only be passed down through the mother, unlike the other Abrahamic religions that is passed down through the father. Judaism has always stood out to me in my understanding as it's the only one that's through the mother. So can you clarify that for me? Because In our earlier conversations, you said you didn't you didn't have to convert to Judaism because your father was the one who's Jewish.

Meli  [00:15:41]:

Reform Jews recognized either matrilineal or patrilineal heritage. So when I went to the Reform synagogue. They recognized me as a Jew because my father was Jewish. I had 1 parent who was Jewish, and I identified as a Jew. The argument, as I understand it, is that it can be, you know, pre-DNA testing. It's easy to not know who the father is, but you absolutely know who the mother is, and that's why it's matrilineal.

Beatriz [00:16:15]:

Oh, is that why? Okay. I didn't know that. And that makes a lot of sense.

Meli  [00:16:21]:

Yeah. And, actually, I mean, what you said was new information to me. I had not realized that Christianity and Islam are patrilineal. I had just never thought about it, but I'll take your word for it. It's something I should know.

Beatriz [00:16:37]:

It's always a question because I'm in an interfaith relationship, And it's always a question that you get when you are in an interfaith relationship. And that's why in Islam, like, a a Muslim man can marry Someone from the other Abrahamic religions only, and it's not seen as a sin because he will pass down his religion So it stays within Islam. And in Christianity, it's the same way. It's passed on through the father. So it's a question you you always get asked like, so how are you gonna raise kids? You know? It's gonna be the right religion.

Meli  [00:17:09]:

Yeah. That's true in a lot of communities.

Beatriz [00:17:12]:

Yeah. So You started off going to this Reform r=Reform synagogue, and it's a certain, I don't know. In Judaism, do you see sect? Like, it's a certain sect of Judaism?

Meli  [00:17:25]:

Denomination is the word used in Christianity and Judaism and sect is the word that Muslims use.

Beatriz [00:17:32]:

Interesting. I didn't know that. But you moved away from that denomination. You moved towards a more orthodox Jewish faith. Is that right?

Meli  [00:17:44]:

I do wanna be careful about the language. I moved from a Reform to a Conservative.

Beatriz [00:17:50]:

Conservative. Okay.

Meli  [00:17:53]:

I think the danger of saying more orthodox, because Orthodox is a stream within Judaism, and I did not move to Orthodoxy. So I just wanna be about using that word. But, yes, I shifted from Reform to Conservative after 10 years, about 10 years at the Reform synagogue.

Beatriz [00:18:15]:

And what ignited that desire to change?

Meli  [00:18:19]:

It was a feeling that I was no longer learning and growing in the Reform synagogue. And I wanted something that was more observant, that was deeper, that would bring me along on this on this path. So that's why I did it.

Beatriz [00:18:35]:

So having not had a strong religious upbringing in your childhood and then as a young adult and through your adulthood, you kept moving more towards religion. What do you feel religion gave you in your adulthood that you you maybe wanted or were lacking in your childhood?

Meli  [00:18:59]:

Another great question, Beatriz. Yes. Oh, wow. I guess it was a sense of clarity of identity. I felt like at the beginning when I realized, okay. I have these 2 religions, but, really, I have no religion. That was very dissatisfying to me. I have all these other aspects of clear identity, and religion is clearly a major force in the world, always has been, continues to be. And I felt like I needed to understand more about religion in general, and I needed a clear identity. It was a very internally inspired desire. And then as I learned more, I got more clear on what kind of Jew do I want to be, how do I want to practice, what kind of community do I want to be a part of, while still being myself.

Beatriz [00:20:03]:

I have difficult, complicated feelings towards religions of all kinds. Like, this not this is not about Abrahamic religion specifically. I think a lot of people misuse religion.

Meli  [00:20:15]:

And you're right. This was part of what I was wondering about. Religion was clearly a major force in the world throughout time in every country. Lots and lots of different kinds of religion, but religion as a whole was clearly a force, a very strong force, for evil and for good.

Beatriz [00:20:36]:

Absolutely.

Meli  [00:20:37]:

It starts wars, and it causes people to be incredibly generous to go and help do things for other people with no benefit. In fact, you know, maybe risk to themselves. And it remains part of what I find so interesting about religion. It's really a crazy thing. Right? You're believing in an intangible being, and it's causing you to behave in a certain way. And groups of people over time have developed beliefs, and behaviors, and ways of serving, and ways of observing and ways of treating each other and defining a community and all these things. All of this is engaged around an intangible something. When I think about it in those terms, I think this is crazy. This is really. And yet it is powerful, and yet it does good. People do good because of it may be a better way to say it. One of the things that I value about it, One of the reasons that I am continuing to be observant is because besides community, which is something I get from being a member of a synagogue. Right? I could be Jewish and not a member of a synagogue. Right? So then I wouldn't have the community. I'd have the identity. I'd have the set of beliefs. But the beliefs, the precepts of Judaism help me to be a better person. That's the value of it to me. The annual holidays. There's the weekly cycle. There are life cycle events. All these things structure my life in a way that I find very helpful, cause me to think more deeply about things that otherwise maybe I wouldn't, I find that valuable. I lean very strongly into the benefits. What's good about being part of a religion? I certainly you know, one of the things that I like about Judaism is that we don't proselytize. This is this is important to me. I'm not interested in trying to tell anybody else how to live, and I really resent it when people push that on me. I I have zero tolerance to that. I have high respect for people's practice as long as they're not hurting anybody. I might find what they do or what they believe to be quite strange or outright upsetting, but I respect their right to do it and their right to believe it, but don't push it on me.

Beatriz [00:23:34]:

I very much agree with that. I I think everyone should be allowed to practice whatever faith and religion they want to practice as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's Life and choices. And, by the way, I I do agree with you. I I think religion can be used for good as well as for bad. I don't think it's, you know, it's it's not it's not all bad. You know? I do think a lot of good comes from religion as well. I just think it's very easy to misuse it. And it has been, you know, historically misused so many times.

Meli  [00:24:11]:

Lots and lots of things can be misused.

Beatriz [00:24:13]:

That's true.

Meli  [00:24:14]:

Right? The knives in your kitchen can make a salad, and they can also murder somebody. So I I think that that kind of statement is is true for for religion, but it's also true for all kinds of things.

Beatriz [00:24:28]:

But the difference with religion is what you were talking about earlier, it's this belief. Religion is belief. Right? It's it's this belief in this intangible entity. To a large extent, when you are a practicing whatever it may be, you do have this blind faith, and that's very easy to manipulate in people. Religion has this element where there's this blind faith, which can be a beautiful thing, but it could also be misused.

Meli  [00:25:00]:

Two things. 1, I can hear the call to prayer, the adhan in in the background. And I think that's really beautiful. In America, you'd hear or in Germany when I lived in Germany, you would hear church bells if you're near church. Clearly, the call to prayer in an in a Muslim country is is much more audible. I just wanna also be careful about language. You mentioned blind faith. Many followers of religion do have blind faith, but not all. And I think we need to be careful about that. I do not have blind faith. And in fact, I find that really problematic. Yet another thing that I find beautiful about Judaism is a strong encouragement to question everything. We do not just read Torah and say, oh, yeah. Okay. We question, we discuss, we write, we comment, we go on and on and on. So I think that's an important distinction that I just wanted to add in there.

Beatriz [00:26:05]:

Fair enough. And to be honest, I I just don't know enough about Judaism. I very much value questioning things. At some point, you decide to start your Talking with God Project that focuses on Abrahamic religions. So when did you it's not take a step back, but it's it's look at it the overall Abrahamic faiths Instead of just focusing on Judaism, like, what prompted that?

Meli  [00:26:31]:

I started the Talking with God Project when I was living in Berlin, Germany in 2014. And what prompted that was that I was attending an egalitarian conservative synagogue. Every Saturday morning, I would be sitting in services and saying prayers. Some of them really raised questions for me. They raised questions about how did I see God and how did I relate to God. I found myself just going around in circles and not coming up with answers, and it seemed like a good excuse to talk to people I didn't know. In terms of why the Abrahamic and not just Judaism or why Abrahamic and not more Mhmm. Was really about recognizing that as with any research project, you have to set a boundary, and you have to stick to it. Otherwise, nothing makes sense and you waste your time. Abrahamic makes sense because we share common roots. And why not just Judaism was because I was living in an international environment. I was very interested and engaged with the intercultural aspect, and it seemed like a natural opportunity to go beyond the Jewish community. I was really interested in in the variety of experiences and beliefs and understanding that more.

Beatriz [00:28:03]:

So I was I was wondering if when you moved to Germany, did your practice and your faith change as a result of this move? Because the city is so different and because you'd all lived in the US, and now this is a completely different environment.

Meli  [00:28:21]:

One of the things that was really interesting about living in Berlin living in Germany was that as a Jew, it was a completely different experience because of the history. I had lived in Boston, in New York, in Seattle. All those cities have big Jewish populations. It is really easy to be Jewish in those cities, not so much in Germany. I was never attacked for being Jewish. I never had any incident. But because of the history, the Jewish community is quite undercover. You have to actively seek out ways of being Jewish in Germany. And that's a very different experience. There are armed police outside of every Jewish synagogue in Germany. You go through security. It's like you're at the airport. This does not happen in US synagogues. With the rise of anti-Semitism, there has been increased security, but not armed police with machine guns, plus security inside the door, inside the locked door. You can't just show up at a German synagogue and attend services. You have to call ahead the day before or so and get on a list, and then they'll let you in. Right? This does not happen in American synagogues. So that's that's that's one end of it, which can be quite shocking the first time you encounter it. On the other hand, it was fabulous to be part of a synagogue, to be part of helping to rebuild a living Judaism in Germany. That was incredibly enriching courtesy of the Nazis. The population of Jews is quite small. It makes a difference if you show up or not. You can't be casually Jewish there. One, you'll end up doing nothing because it's not just in the air, and 2, you're missing the opportunity to help support and grow a community. So it was a completely different kind of experience.

Beatriz [00:31:03]:

I wanna ask you about how you practice Judaism today. You've clearly there's been a progression over the decades of how you practiced and you left 1 denomination for the other, and then you went to Germany and it was Slightly different. Now you're back in the US. So what's your practice like today, and what does it bring to you today?

Meli  [00:31:28]:

I'm an active member of my Conservative synagogue. It's egalitarian, which means that men and women sit together, women can lead. 1 of our rabbis is a woman. That's really important to me. The synagogue continues to be an anchor for me in my life socially in terms of learning, in terms of my Jewish practice and identity. I observe certainly, all of the major holidays and some of the minor holidays were just now ending the fall High Holy Days cycle. So we're in Sukkot, the Festival of Booths. These holidays, these cycles, the weekly and the annual cycle really shaped my life. I work a Sunday to Thursday schedule because of the Jewish calendar, because that Jewish Sabbath starts Friday sundown and goes to Saturday sundown. At home, I say prayers at bedtime and at waking. I say prayers before I eat. I keep a kosher diet. And in fact, as we speak, I have a Yahrzeit candle going for my father's father. The Yahrzeit is the the anniversary of his death. Those are the big ways that I practice my religion.

Beatriz [00:32:52]:

When, you know, when you found Judaism as an adult, did you then have a bat mitzvah?

Meli  [00:32:59]:

Right. In typical fashion, I did things all out of order. Okay. So at my first that Reform synagogue, In order to go to the conservative synagogue, I mentioned I had to jump through some hoops. That included writing an essay about my spiritual path, how I lived Jewishly, why I wanted to join a conservative synagogue, all of that. So I did that, And I had to go before a. A is a panel of 3 rabbis of your denomination. So in my case, it was conservative Jews. It was the, I would say, woman rabbi, I will note, wonderful rabbi, from the conservative synagogue I wanted to join. And she brought in 2 other women rabbis, also conservative. Basically, it's an hour of answering questions. It was very intense. I didn't really know any of these women. All they knew from me was this thing I'd written, 2 pages. So I was quite surprised by some of the questions I got asked. I now wish that I had a recording so I knew what was asked. But I do remember being asked things like, do you keep kosher? What is your favorite holiday? How do you observe? What is a favorite, story in the bible? In Torah. I obviously passed. Right? They they could've, they could've said, no. We don't accept you. Really? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Why have a questioning if the automatic answer is gonna be okay? So my answers were sufficient. After the, then I went into the mikvah, which is a sacred pool of living water that you go into before major changes, before you get married. For orthodox women, they they go in at the end of the menstrual cycle so that they can be intimate with their husbands again. Men can also go in, you often do before they get married or at some other major change, maybe when they become a father. I I don't know. Yeah. So Beit Din, Mikvah, and then and then they said welcome. And I have, you know, an official piece of paper that says that this happened. Yeah. That was a big transition. My father was really ticked off that I had to do this. He was like, but you're Jewish. I'm like, yeah. Well, for Conservatives, I'm not. You know? It's like it's hoops. It's like going to college. Right? If you wanna go to college, you have to apply. You wanna get a job, you have to apply. You don't just walk in and say, okay. Now I'm here.

Beatriz [00:35:59]:

So it's very interesting because in in certain religions, it's easier than others. I just find it very interesting. The the the whole process is is quite interesting. So let's end with this question. What is your source of hope?

Meli  [00:36:17]:

I would say that given the difficulties in our world these days, my sense of hope is that I see acceptance, and social justice work, and learning, and striving to improve the world and ourselves. And on that note, I wanna thank you for having this conversation with me, Beatriz. You've asked wonderful questions, and We've gone in directions I didn't expect to go, but it's been a great conversation. Thank you for your sensitivity and care. Appreciate that.

Beatriz [00:36:55]:

Thank you for trusting me and inviting me on to to host this episode where we get to know you a little bit more. I really appreciate it. I appreciate the trust, and thank you.

Meli  [00:37:08]:

You're welcome. Thank you. Okay. Bye bye. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to get notified when new episodes are released, hit the subscribe button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be sent directly to info@talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. Thank you so much. Till next time.