Bonus. Religion in Our Modern World (Wajahat Ali)

Episode 48.
As a columnist (The New York Times, the Daily Beast and elsewhere), speaker, published author, recovering attorney and practicing Muslim, Wajahat Ali brings a sharp eye and thoughtful commentary to the issue of religion in our modern world, especially the USA. The current political dissension and aggressive efforts by the right wing and Christian nationalists to impose their values regarding education and health care on all Americans, as well as the ceding of religion by liberals, raises critical issues. In this lively discussion we address a few of the related challenges, including religious liberty and illiteracy, religion as a cocoon against modernity, how to bridge the divides, and the role of fear in driving antagonism and protectionism. Discussing these issue and how religion plays a role is timely.

Highlights:
00:04:00 Post-9/11, Muslims face discrimination and fear.
00:17:30 White Supremacy fuels bigotry against Jews, Muslims.
00:23:36 Traditions and identities shaping multicultural society.
00:28:28 Living in fear activates stress, impairs judgment, and turns people inward, selfish, and ignorant. Privileged individuals fear the gays and trans community, forgetting they face the same hate. Religion can act as a cocoon, but also as a sword against perceived enemies.
00:35:33 Take control of your actions and intentions.
00:41:06 Religious weakness of liberals and Democrats explained.
00:48:33 Intentionality in Islam leads to selfless love.

References:
Mallory McMorrow, Democratic State Senator (Michigan) – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLWo8B1R0MY

Social Media links for Wajahat:
Website – https://www.wajali.com
NY Times opinion piece, 23 June 2023 – https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/23/opinion/lgbtq-muslims.html?searchResultPosition=1
NY Times opinion piece, 16 Aug. 2023  – https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/16/opinion/albuquerque-shia-sunni.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271

Transcript: 
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/13500414


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Transcript

Wajahat Ali transcript

Bonus – Religion in Our Modern World

Meli  [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs. A home for open conversations with fellow Christians Jews and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. At work, at home, in the community, in good times and in bad. There is no one size fits all right answer. Just a way to move forward for you, for here, for now. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This is episode 48 and is a bonus episode, which means we focus on a topic rather than a personal faith path. Today's topic is religion in our modern world. My guest today is Wajahat Ali. Wajahat is a New York Times contributing op Ed rider and daily beast columnist. public speaker, and recovering attorney. He also regularly appears on cable news and radio to discuss politics, religion, foreign policy, and culture. Wajahat often speaks on the multifaceted American experience. covering our growing needs for cultural unity, racial diversity, and inclusion. Additionally, he has published his first book Go back to where you came from, and other helpful recommendations on becoming American. He believes in sharing stories that are by us for everyone, universal narratives told through a culturally specific lens to entertain, educate, and bridge the global divide. Wajahat had grew-up in the Bay Area, California to Pakistani immigrant parents. He graduated from UC Berkeley with an English major and became a licensed attorney. He knows what it feels like to be the token minority in the classroom and the darkest person in the boardroom. He is married and the father of three kids. His social media links are listed in the show notes. Hello, Wajahat. I'm so pleased to have you on my Living Our Beliefs podcast today.

Wajahat [00:02:23]:

Hello. Hello. Thank you so much for inviting me. I I feel very, very celebrated and honored.

Meli  [00:02:31]:

So just a note to the audience and a reminder for us, this is a Bonus episode. And as such, it focuses on a topic rather than your personal faith path, although, obviously, you are speaking as an individual. The focus for our talk is being religious in the modern world. And with that, I'd like to begin with my usual first question. What is your cultural and religious identity?

Wajahat [00:02:59]:

I am a left-handed son of Pakistani Muslim immigrants and an exhausted father of three kids. but to answer it like an adult, I am a forty-two-year-old American citizen who is a, believe it or not, practicing Muslim, and, son of Pakistani immigrants who was born and raised in the Bay Area, California.

Meli  [00:03:24]:

I'd like to begin addressing the question of the commitment to faith or observance or beliefs, whatever word you wanna use, and how you feel acceptance in a pluralistic society. You know, it's 2023 the past number of years have been very challenging on the political social religious front. And I think that really is the context in which we speak. How do you see this balancing of being an observant Muslim and yet living in a pluralistic US.

Wajahat [00:04:00]:

Every day is an adventure. I joke. Take it back. I'd go to a post-9/11 climate and for many Muslims, especially Muslims who were born and raised in this country, or perhaps those Muslims who tasted privilege or perhaps those Muslims who thought, oh, we've made it. We're part and parcel of the American narrative. We might not be the heroes, but at least we're no longer the antagonists. You know, 9/11 was, what I call the baptism by fire for my generation. I was twenty-one years old. I was a senior at UC Berkeley. And for us, born and raised in this country, there's always a fork in the timeline. There's a pre-9/11 and a post-9/11. And and what happened with 9/11 is Islam became the enemy. Right? It's not like this has not happened before. Right? When we were growing up in the eighties nineties, even those in the seventies. You saw how America looked at you. You were either, ignored you were the stereotype, the punch line, or or the villain, and we saw this in, like, Hollywood movies that we used to consume. But the villain oftentimes was like the middle eastern villain that that that brown foreign guy. Islam itself was seen as something exotic and foreign, but not the enemy. And what happened after 9/11, if you remember, was these words like us versus them. You're either with us or you're against us. That's what George W Bush said. And he even used the word foolishly, and then he later apologized it's a crusade. It was Islam versus the West. And you're sitting there thinking to yourself, what's Islam and what's the West? How come I've never met either of them? it's interesting when you're both Islam and the West, right, you're us and them, and your country turns on you. and your country sees you as a suspect and as a foreigner, not as a citizen, not as native. For many of us who were born and raised here, you know, that was a rude awakening, Meli. That's what I say. And you kinda realize, oh, no matter what we do, it'll never be enough. And then in the background, black people are like, told you, And you hear lessons from Japanese Americans and the Irish Catholics, especially the elders who remember in Jewish Americans, the elders who remember and other groups and you realize, oh, it's always been like this. You have to love a country that doesn't always love you back. So then the question becomes How much do you push for acceptance? People forget that there were hate crimes, still hate crimes. You know, there was a deportation a registry. FBI showed up at our homes. Right? Like, the the magnifying glass is on you. So there is this fear and this desire to protect your community. In doing so, how much do you give up if anything to, How much do you apologize for? How long do you have to apologize for? Do you even apologize? Why do we have to condemn violent acts done by people we've never met? And then there comes a shift, Meli, where you're like, I don't wanna apologize for being myself. I don't wanna condemn people I've never met, why am I engaging in these double standards and why am I engaging in the circus where white people don't have to do this, nor should they do this, right, It's about living in a country that doesn't always love you back, loving a country that doesn't always love you back, fighting for your own people and your faith and your which are under active assault. I mean, people forget, you know, now the whole thing is CRT and and transgender, but in the 2010 midterm elections in 2012 is all about Sharia. The same exact manufactured panic. People forget this. You know, people also forget Muslims forget 7 years ago, Donald Trump said on CNN, quote, I think Islam hates us. That was the guy the elected president. It's it's this nonstop ride where you feel quintessentially American because you're born and raised here, and you're like, oh, I have really freedoms. And, you know, I'm Muslim, and I'm American. I'm Pakistani, and I faster in Ramadan, and I watch the Simpsons, and I raise my kids. And then I'll eat Dahl but I'm still not part of the Judeo-Christian framework. And for those of you who know your American history, that Judeo was added in the 20th century folks. It wasn't always there. So it's an act of resistance, It's an act of trying to love yourself, trying to love a country that doesn't love you, trying to impart these traditions in a hostile climate where based on the color of your skin and your religious identity, let me put it this way. When I was growing up, a Republican could not get away with rank Islamophobia and racism, they had to do dog whistles. So people say, Oh, you've come a far away since 9/11. You have, Miss Marvel. you know, she's part of the avengers. She's Muslim and Pakistani. And you have Muslim elected officials, and you got Muslims on television. Correct. Yes. However, I have never heard this blatant open racism in bigotry and Islamophobia. I never grew up with that. And the fact that there are some people who will be rewarded for this, you have the 2 extremes side by side, and that a country where my kids are inheriting, and my kids are brown skinned. They have Muslim names. We're raising the Muslim, and my generation that was born and raised here, just to give you an interesting sobering example, a couple of years ago, a friend of mine who was about to have a kid that said, I wanna give my kid a Muslim name. She was pregnant, but a name that also could be safe. I didn't realize a lot of my friends without realizing we're self-policing their unborn kids' names just to make them feel safe. That's how it feels.

Meli  [00:09:25]:

As a Jewish American, I get it. Now I have the advantage of white skin. But then I'm a woman. Right? So We each have these multiple identities, and some of them are more problematic sometimes than others. I think this issue of representation is important. Where and how much are we represented? you mentioned a moment ago about there are Muslims in in comics and journalists and politicians and and all of that you know, and you mentioned kids. Right? I think it's really important for kids to see, ah, that person up there -- Yeah. -- looks like me. this is possible. Yeah. Right? I think for every minority group, this is super important.

Wajahat [00:10:11]:

Correct. Yeah.

Meli  [00:10:13]:

Does it protect us? No. And really the question that then comes to mind listening to you watch out is what would it take? Now what would it take for your friends to not be self-policing about their kids' names? What would it take for this issue of I'm tired of defending myself? I'm tired of explaining. I'm tired of being the model minority or the the punch line, what have you. Is there an out? Is there a solution here?

Wajahat [00:10:51]:

You have to eradicate white supremacy in America and replace it with a truly multi racial, multicultural, democratic vision. And white supremacy, unfortunately, is part and parcel of the American dream and American nightmare. And every time there has been an attempt to eradicate white supremacy from our institution than our mindset. As you can clearly see right now, there has been hostile, hostile resistance. Right? Optimists would say two steps forward, one step back. Phoenix would say for every one step forward, two steps back. Women, if we're finally able to get rights And America is like, nope. We're gonna remove a 50 year constitutionally protected. Right? black people are saying, hey. maybe don't choke us to death if we're unarmed, and we're gonna do some protest. Look at it. All we're saying is Black Lives Matter. Black they're not saying black lives are the best. They're not saying Black Lives are preferred. Can we just agree on Black Lives Matter? And a part of America is like, nope. It's a zero sum game for them. And each time a, if you will, a minority or anybody who's been excluded from the American tent or the American narrative, simply asks or demands that can we have this thing called freedom and equality that America kind of, promises to everyone? That's all we want. No one wants special status. At the end of the day, we just want equal status. And and you see the country in the part of this country anytime if it's black, if it's a woman, if it's LGBTQ, if it's an immigrant, anytime there isn't any effort whatsoever to promote that group so that they can just get some bootstraps. It's always seen that it's come at the expense of the white majority. Right? And you looked at all the data. It's always there. It's always seen as an us or them, or you took my share of the pizza. That was my birth rate. That belonged to me. The example I always try to give folks is, suppose for a 100 years, there was a photo of a boardroom. And every generation, there were ten seats in the boardroom, and every generation, there were 10 white guys. And then 30 years ago, there was one white woman. And then 20 years ago, there was one black person and one white woman. And now there is one black person one white woman, 1 Asian 1 Latino and 6 white folks. For the rest of us, the, quote, quote, minorities, we're like, yay. There's one of us. for the others, it's they are replacing us, and the data backs that up. what really prompted Trump's victory was not. Let me repeat, not economic anxiety. It's a nonsense BS euphemism that we keep using to infantilize and rationalize white supremacy and white rage. It was merely cultural anxiety again and again and again every single study has shown it. The fear that they're replacing us. We are losing power. And we're like, no. No. No. Trust me. You are still in power. Look at all the data. You guys are crushing it. Right? We just want a seat at the table. Can we have a seat at the table? And literally the narrative goes, we will allow you to have the seat at the table as long as you know that we are the ahead of the table, and you better behave yourself, and you better know your place. And when you said people resist, and there's a generation that says, no. We're not gonna apologize. we don't have to thank you for a seat at the table. We deserve to be here. We're citizens. That's where you see the tension. So we have to wait for it. Be aware. Some would say be woke as opposed to being asleep, Basically, from faith traditions, it's gaining knowledge. Be aware. Don't be ignorant. How can you help people? How can you cure hearts how can you use your prophetic messages to treat the people if you don't even know how to diagnose them? If you can't see the symptoms. Right? And so that's where the wokeness comes in when it comes to identifying what I think is the primary disease of America, which is I would say white supremacy. And another one I would probably say is materialism and greed. And so confronting this, and dismantling it will finally allow us to get to a point where in shallow, we don't have to have these conversations about representation but we're a long way away from that. Even though we're a long way away from that, we have to give respect to our ancestors, including women, people of color, who really struggled to get us to this point. And if you don't know your past, you don't know your present, you can't chart the future. That's the reason why authoritarians and fascists always, always, always want to ban books, want to have a single story, want to have a single hero.

Meli  [00:15:30]:

So a couple of things. One is you've raised a question of the value or the necessity or even the possibility of things like religious literacy. There has been in the last couple of decades, a push for that. Now there's, you know, been various DEI efforts. That's now under attack. And I do think the knowledge among those who are willing and interested has come up with every issue. We're like, oh, who are they? Where is that? What's that problem? You know, and people start reading and they get into reading groups, and they listen to folks like you and listen to TED Talks and and and what have you. And I think that the knowledge is increased. But there is an overall dark cloud that just doesn't seem to go away. And again, as a Jew, I'm quite with you that that there is this default to white supremacy, white nationalism.

Wajahat [00:16:39]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:16:39]:

I might add White Christian Nationalism.

Wajahat [00:16:43]:

You should add that. Yes. That is the number one threat to this country, in my opinion, right now.

Meli  [00:16:49]:

It's a gigantic problem. We do seem to periodically take a step forward. Now for you and I, that step forward is greater acknowledgement, greater support, more comfortable pluralism, more understanding, more knowledge.

Wajahat [00:17:06]:

Correct.

Meli  [00:17:08]:

And yet, two quotes come to mind. One is from the Charlottesville Unite the Right. “Jews will not replace us”.

Wajahat [00:17:17]:

Yep.

Meli  [00:17:18]:

That was scary to hear. And the other is a slightly more humorous take. I think it comes from a jazz standard: “Help yourself, but don't take too much”.

Wajahat [00:17:30]:

Yeah. know your place. And it's one of those situations where when the unite the right rally happened, and the forces of white supremacy kind of assembled like the KKK Avengers in defense of a a racist statue, that should have been enough for people to say, woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. What's happening? Even for many Jews who, mean, you know, this better than I do. You know, I was trying to warn so many Jewish Americans who thought and still think that they're white and believe that their white skin will protect them. Still, even now, I say, listen. What's animating a large part of white nationalists both here and abroad, you assume it's anti blackness true, but it's anti-Semitism. specifically that helps fuel all of this bigotry and racism, right, because they believe that the Jews, and you always have to say the Jews, and you need, like, thunder and lightning and, the Jews, the nerve center, are the brains behind the International cabal to help weaken and replace Western Civilization, which is oftentimes, a standard, fill in for like you said, White Christian Nationalists have been trying to weaken Christianity, white people, and white men. And they're using the savages the Muslims, the Blacks, the Latinos, because and this is what's really important. There's no way that these blacks and these Latinos and these Muslims have the cultural and intellectual bandwidth to come up with this themselves. They're beasts. We are the intellectual superiors, but you know who might be even more smart than us and more conniving the Jews. And the fact that this is so sobering, and I hope people are really paying attention. About a third of Americans believe in the white supremacist conspiracy theory called the replacement theory. And the replacement theory is exactly a manifestation of what I said that the Jews are using all these groups to weaken and replace Western Civilization. And now the euphemism for it is the deep state in George Soros, which is a mainstream talking point of Republicans, and a mainstream talking point of fascist movements both here and abroad. You see it being used by Orban, by Putin. You see Erdogan dipping into it. You're seeing it happen right now in Argentina. And so in particular, the two religious groups that are most affected by this are the Jews and Muslims. We are seen as the invaders. Right? It's so it's a situation where it all comes to a head where you see white supremacy, white Christian nationalism, fear, disinformation, age old prejudices being used by a global movement that is committed towards creating a world in which, quote unquote, the white man stays at top and the rest of us, we will at best rent the room in the house, never be co-owners, and they will allow us to stay there if we know our place. I've talked to some older Jews and like, listen, listen, listen. You know when you're a minority, don't flex too much when you have power. They come after you. And then a part of you then also wants to assimilate and integrate by giving up your tribe and other tribes You know, you become the Nikki Haley's and the Vivek Ramaswami's and the so forth. And then there's resistance, but then what comes with the resistance and maintaining those religious values is exhaustion. And then you say, well, how much for how long can I resist? And then on top of that, it's modernity. You know, then we have our religious traditions battling with the forces of modernity. And you’re trying to make this thing, this tradition, these stories, and these these these morals, and these practices relevant to our children. And then our children are like, people hate us. Why do I wanna be a Jew or Muslim? Or secondly, why am I doing this stuff? If it doesn't give us peace of mind or happiness, right, when when my parents and my everyone around me is miserable. I don't wanna be on the losing team. So then it's about, okay, modeling strength. outwardly because you have to resist, but then also modeling happiness and joy internally for our families and for the next generation. and you could see that pressure. And you see how that pressure's cracking and straining so many of our communities. I'm sure what I've said resonates with you in the Jewish communities that that you're a part of.

Meli  [00:22:02]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And just as you were talking, I wrote a few words. One was balance. So balance of the –well, there are so many. Balance of the pluralism and the tribe. Balance of history and modernity. balance of religious observance, and and this basically a secular public square. So that's one thing. The other word that popped up was code switching.

Wajahat [00:22:31]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:22:31]:

I don't know. I mean, maybe this is just par for the course of being a minority in the US. I mean, we are famous for being a multicultural country, right, where the great immigrant country. We're unique in that way. The whole world is here. Folks from every other country want to come live, right, despite all of this. Yeah. Folks are doing everything they can to come live here.

Wajahat [00:22:59]:

Yep.

Meli  [00:23:00]:

A small personal note. When I moved to Germany, one of the questions I got very often was why?

Wajahat [00:23:08]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Meli  [00:23:08]:

But it was really moving. to be an observant Jew in Berlin. Because of the history, not despite it, but because of it, to to help it rebuild and yet be mindful of rising anti-Semitism. Right? That is always lurking. So that that's a piece of that. It was super interesting. That's another conversation.

Wajahat [00:23:36]:

It is interesting because just like our parents, or, like my parents, they came here after the 1965 Immigration Nationality Act, and you have to remember back in those days, you know, my father came with his brother as teenagers. There weren't Halal markets. There weren't mosques. My father says in those days, if you were just walking the street, and across the street if you saw a brown person. Forget Muslim. Forget Pakistan. Let let's just say like a sick Indian man wearing a turban. Right? He said that in those days, we would run to each other and exchange phone numbers because you just saw someone who looks like you. Right? And he said we used to, like, drive sometimes in the Midwest, across the state to find Halal meat. You know, we were, like, trying to learn what could research and ask our parents when it came down to do Eid. And we're like, hey. Who knows how to do Eid prayer? You don't take for granted the religious traditions and cultures, you have to fight for it. In in that, there's some beauty. Right? Like, you stick together and you remember, and you hold on to you hold on to it, especially when you feel like it's so precious that it might be lost. Fast forward 30, 40 years. I'm like, wow. Look at that. You know? and our communities are parents who were they were just kids, and they held on. And as a result, this this thing called tradition keeps going. being that minority, it gives you pride. Yes. There's a target on you. Also makes you hold on fast and tight. to those traditions that you otherwise would I'm sure when you go there that you when you see a synagogue or you see a mosque and you see a church and, like, look at that. At the end of the day, what is it? It's just brick and mortar. It's but it's the people who built that, who who stayed true, who were able to be simultaneously German and also Jewish. German and also Muslim, who contributed something inshallah, hopefully positive to that community, while retaining their values. And that is the the hope and the tension of living this, what I call this multicultural society called America. I hated the melting pot analogy because I don't wanna melt into anything. It's like it's more like a salad. So the tension is, how do I maintain my unique organic shape but still be part of this ensemble. That's the tension. And I feel like it's one of the situations where America is always trying to figure out how do I maintain my identity? But when another person's identity makes me uncomfortable. What do I do with that? And I think that's what we're dealing with right now. The discomfort of other identities emerging. Right? And so you see this in particular. with people of color, women, immigrants, Muslims. I'll say Jewish, even a lot of Jews think they have assimilated, trust me, this country will turn on you. They don't see you as white. Those white nationalists see you as Jewish, and in in particular right now, Meli, the LGBT, especially the T. And that's where you're seeing the breakdown happen.

Meli  [00:26:39]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Fear and discomfort drive antagonism and protectionism.

Wajahat [00:26:45]:

Yep.

Meli  [00:26:46]:

Every time. And those roots are deep. Right? For the white folks who are fearful of losing their supreme position, that fear is triggered into antagonism incredibly quickly.

Wajahat [00:27:04]:

Mhmm.

Meli  [00:27:06]:

And then I suppose an I do feel like this is kind of a dark conversation. So I'm I'm looking for the light here. I suppose on on the side of the minority, It's a different kind of fear. Right? It's a fear of well, it's a fear of hostility and attack. Right? Your life could be on the line. Right? For Black men in America, this is a very real fear, unfortunately.

Wajahat [00:27:33]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:27:34]:

And for those of us, not quite so strongly with a target on our back, I think we can relax. I think we do relax. Sometimes a little too much. We start taking things for granted. We think, okay. Yeah. We got it. We're okay. So there is, I think, for us, value in retaining some amount of the fear because it keeps us alert to the dangers out there. So, again, I return to this word of balance. Like, how do we balance those things? Because I don't know about you, Wajahat, but I do not want to live on the trigger line.

Wajahat [00:28:14]:

Yeah. It's not it's not healthy.

Meli  [00:28:16]:

This does drive some of us, at least, into you are the one who phrase it this way that religion is a cocoon against modernity. You know, into the tribe.

Wajahat [00:28:28]:

Yeah. But why would anyone wanna live in fear all the time? Right? And what we've seen is that what what you're basically doing is living perpetual fight flight. And when you're living in perpetual fight-flight, you're activating stress. And now we know we have enough data that stress kills. and impairs your judgment because your body through evolution is primed to survive. So if you're triggering fight flight, You don't have the the the capacity in that moment to think rationally, to think long term, to think about your consequences, It turns you inward. It turns you selfish. You you like the capacity to be selfless where best intentioned people with good values and morals because they give into fear and ignorance, they allow those emotions to dominate love. They allow those emotions to dominate kindness. Because what happens is then you say, I have to protect myself. I have to protect my family. I have to protect my community by any means necessary. And when you're in a fight flight mode where self-preservation is your only end, oftentimes what gets jettisoned is morality. and ethics and selflessness and sacrifice. And I would even say, God. God oftentimes gets sacrificed, right. And so it is not a healthy way to live. It is not a healthy place to be in. And the tragedy is is so many people who are driven by fear are people whom God has given everything. And what I mean by that are folks in the suburbs right now. And and, you know, I'm living in the suburbs, and I could tell you on the WhatsApp chats You have everything except peace of mind. You're terrified of your shadow because it's black. You're terrified of poor people potentially encroaching. You're terrified of, you know, immigrants even though they're not bothering you, you're terrified of the women getting too much lip. You're terrified of the gays, even though there's no gay people in your home, you're terrified of your kid trying to transgender, even though your kid is homeschooled and goes to private school, you know, is not reading these books. You're terrified of everything. And I'm sitting there thinking, like, you have your the top 5%. You have everything except peace of mind. It's almost like a a curse a a gilded cage that they've created for themselves, right? A cocoon. We're gonna put our heads in the sand. We're gonna turn away We're gonna live in our own Facebook algorithm. We're gonna ban books. We're only gonna have a few select friends, and then maybe just maybe just maybe we'll be safe. And you know and I know having lived this thing called life that when whenever we talk like that god laughs, Right. And when you wanna protect the kids, your kids ain't protected. Your kids have TikTok. Your kids have Instagram. Your kids are curious. Your kids will be exposed, and you have not prepared your children for this multicultural world. You have not prepared your children for dealing with people who are different from them. You have not prepared your children with the type of confidence that they need to have in their religion, in their identity, in their morals that if they are placed in any situation, they can rely upon it and draw from it, a well of strength that says everyone else is drinking alcohol, I'm a Muslim. I don't drink. Let them make fun of me for the 1st couple of days. I won't make fun of them. And, oh, look, after a couple of days, they respected me. That was my story. Right? What I've seen, Meli, because I've seen this, and I'm seeing this right now happening in my communities where you would think the number one fears climate change, gun violence, authoritarianism. You know what the number one fear is in these WhatsApp chats? The gays. the trans. They're coming after our kids. And the sad part is the privileged folks are forgetting that those forces that are coming after the trans are the same forces that hate us and the Jews. but their fear has hijacked their faith, I would say, and hijacked their capacity for self-sustaining kindness. And also the way it also and I will mention this. The way it also is all, like, intertwined to protection is they feel like if they don't batten down the hatches, everything that they've built will fall apart. Their daughter is gonna become a lesbian. Their son's gonna be a girl. No one's gonna fast. No one's gonna pray. No one's gonna wear a hijab, and it's all over. And I always tell them, like, listen, I was born and raised in this country. You and I were born and raised in this country. We're still Muslim. That doesn't make sense. We should have assimilated an abandonment longer. We should have a abandoned it after 9/11. Like, that's that's like a losing team. to be, you know, Muslim after 9/11. But here we are. So maybe maybe maybe have faith and have some hope in the kids And maybe there's a different way where instead of being so terrified, you can lead with strength, confidence, and love. That's a challenge. Right? I know I gave you a lot, but this is this stuff on on my mind right now. When you mentioned, like, a religion acting as a cocoon, I would also say religion, unfortunately, is acting as a sword. against our perceived enemies, of modernity. And that oftentimes if we're to be honest, are women and LGBTQ right now in America.

Meli  [00:33:42]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I just wanna pick out two bits of what you just said. Wajahat that I think are just super important. One is this need of those in power who are afraid to attack the weakest link.

Wajahat [00:33:58]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:33:59]:

Right? And as you just said, I think absolutely accurately that at the moment, that weakest part is the LGBTQ community, especially trans kids.

Wajahat [00:34:09]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:34:10]:

It's a tiny, tiny part of the population.

Wajahat [00:34:14]:

Less than a percent.

Meli  [00:34:15]:

But again, Sorry to keep saying this, but as a Jew, that doesn't matter. Right? It's not about data points.

Wajahat [00:34:24]:

Yep.

Meli  [00:34:25]:

And I think, frankly, this is part of where the folks on the left, this is where we fall down sometimes in terms of the public discourse. You know, we, we like to say, oh, but we have the data, but it's really an emotional thing. We need to address the emotional experience and the emotions of fear and anxiety. It is systemic. It's a big challenge. There's no one quick fix. I personally feel like change happens one conversation at a time. Yeah. It's very slow.

Wajahat [00:35:02]:

Yep.

Meli  [00:35:03]:

But with one conversation, as I have on this podcast, as I have done in my talking with god project research. One:one conversations or small group conversations have the benefit of going deeper and being able to tease out ideas and unpack things. And I think that's that's where it happens. When we get into these bigger groups into the into the mob mentality as as the Jan 6 attack shows, -- crazy shit happens.

Wajahat [00:35:33]:

You know, it's one of the situations where at the end of the day, we're only responsible for our own intentions and actions. It's very hard to change anybody. you know, Islam, you believe that, you live your life. And then, inshallah, you will have to meet your creator one day. And on that day, each soul is responsible for their own actions and is responsible for their own deeds. This does not mean that you forfeit your response as a parent or as a child or as a citizen or as a neighbor. But there's only so much you can do. Right? Even like the the story of Noah, that a new Islam as we call them in in Islam. Right? Like, people y'all always tell people, like, when they say, what about my kids? What about my kids? I'm like, you do what you can. Even Noah, who's the prophet of God, who's literally like, hey, guys. There's a flood coming. I'm a prophet of God. His son's like, nah, I'm not gonna get on the ship. That was his son. Right? So it it, like, just reminds me sometimes. Right? And I I say this is a parent of three kids. They're like, Wow. The heartache of Noah. Can you imagine? He's like, I'm the prophet of God. My people are gonna get destroyed. I'm trying to protect everybody. I'm trying to protect my family. And even my son rejects me, and he knows. Oh, like a dagger in the heart. So what I'm trying to say is at the end of the day, really, if you think about it, we can only control our own intentions and actions and we have limited time. So the question that we ask ourselves is with this limited time that we have been given on this place called Earth, where we live this thing called life, where if you do believe in god, you think you're created for a purpose, you create through love, and in shallow one day, you will meet your creator. What can I do? And then I believe that what we can do is make three choices. Do you choose to be aware? or do you choose to be asleep? Am I aware of what's happening inside me around me in my community? Then if you become aware of what's happening, then the second part I always say is, do I intend to do something about it? and Islam intention is key. You know, our actions are based upon our intentions. The opposite of intentionality, I think, is heedlessness. Right? So I intend to be a better person, but intention is not enough. Now you have to act. So the third part I would say is action. how do I choose to act? The reason why I'm I'm saying this is she could be overwhelmed, and you could be like, there's so many problems, man, apathy, materialism, hate, ignorance, white Christian nationalism, white supremacy, climate change, student loan debt. Who am I? I'm nobody. What can I do? I'll just bury my head in the sand, or I'll draw a protective circle around me and my family. I'll get paid. I'll watch TV, and that's it. and I'll give him the cynicism and apathy and selfishness. But I think everybody's got something. God has given everybody something. Kiness is a superpower. You know, listening is a superpower, raising good kids. And so if we, in our daily life, choose to be the best versions of ourselves. And if we can lead with kindness and love, then at the very least, maybe in your home, you are modeling an example that will impact and influence your kids, and that will, in turn, inshallah impact generations. at your workplace, at school, in your community, in your mosque, even though you might not get a medal or you might not be in television, you have done something. You've made a contribution. Right? And when people see this, what inspires in them is hope. there's a spiritual saying that if you wanna get better, hang around with people who are better than you. Right? And so people look at that. They're like, oh, wow. Look at that. That that person's got something. They seem happy. They seem joyful. They're they're living a life of service. They they seem to be a good partner, a good parent. I wanna have what that person's have I was moderating a panel at the American Psychologists association on Hope as the antidote, and these are doctors now. Right? Like psychologists who have studied hope. A doctor was saying this, he said hope begets hope. Hope begets hope. And at first, it's hard. It's like driving a manual car. But once you learn how to drive it and once you learn how to, like, you know, shift the gears and you do it, internally, it has effect on you. It has like a ripple effect. And then people see it And then when people collectively come together, that collective action also inspires collective hope. people see other people doing good. They're like, ah, I'm part of something. And that's how you get people protesting. That's how you get people coming out to like defend. That's how you get people coming out to vote during a pandemic. That's my hope, Meli. Control myself. Do what I can do. My family, my kids. And then in Charlotte, link up with other people who I see trying to do that, and maybe we can create what I call the multicultural Avengers. and do what we can do with the limited time that we have on this place called Earth.

Meli  [00:40:30]:

Excellent. I think we need a comic book there. multicultural avengers. So we're coming close to the end of our time here, watch out, but I do have a couple of closing questions. One is – we've spoken in this conversation and in others about the co-opting of religion by the Right.

Wajahat [00:40:49]:

Yes.

Meli  [00:40:50]:

How would you suggest that the liberals, the Democrats, the Left wing, however you wanna phrase it, could incorporate the religious voice, the religious communities and leaders into our liberal stance.

Wajahat [00:41:06]:

Very good question. Something that I've always said is a a a major weak spot for progressives, liberals, Democrats, all of them. I know they're not the same, but basically those who are not part of the GOP agenda who consider themselves to be, I guess, center left. The majority in this country is that they have ceded the ground of religiosity and spirituality to the right. The right wing has hijacked it and is using oftentimes fear and performative religious language to win over religious communities. The reason why the the left, again, the majority, abandons religion for the most part, is two reasons. Number 1, live in a secular society, and we have to differentiate ourselves from these right wing folks who are White Christian Nationalists and we realize that their vision is very, if you will, stingy and miserly and is only for a religious nationalist. Right? So we need a big and then that big tent, you have to lead with secular language. Secondly, it's because so many of them have been oppressed. Let's be honest, the religious institutions, especially women. young people, people of color, LGBTQ, that they find no meaning anymore, and they see it as archaic, and they see it as, like, unscientific, right, And then what I tell folks is you are missing out because whether you like it or not, you have to meet people where they are. and where a lot of people around the world are, Meli, isn't a religious community. And this ignorance and this lack of awareness of how religious communities talk, operate, and think is a massive weak spot for liberals and Democrats, right? I feel like when you're in liberal circles, they think, like, most religious people are either, the vegans or carnivores. Right? They either, like, I'm spiritual, but not religious. I'm secular Muslim. Or they're they think they're, like, you're a fundamentalist, like, extremist. Right? I'm like, no. Most people are omnivores. They're like, yeah. My mom is religious. I used to go to church. I'll go on church for Ash Wednesday, bam, mess around, but I guess I'm still Christian. That's like how most people are. You know, religion gives people meaning It gives people values. It gives people identity. It gives people in this modern age community. for better or worse, that's where people find community through religion. And what happens is when progressives mock religion, crap on religion, they go ahead. I understand why you do it. But when you abandon them, and you don't speak the religious language or you know how to talk to them, guess who comes in? Franklin Graham, Donald Trump, Rick Santoro. Nikki Haley, these frauds, these modern-day pharaohs, right, who who who speak fascism through a religious language and use Jesus as a mascot for white supremacy. And they and they win him over time and time again on moral values and family values. time and time again, Millie. And religious communities are like, hey. At least they believe in God. Hey. At least they have these values. Hey. At least that, you know, they quote the Bible in the Quran, and what they're doing right now with LGBTQ is a classic divide and conquer technique. See? They're trying to shove this down to your throat. They're trying to make the sinful into lawful. They're celebrating hedonism. Sodom and Gamora. Right? These are, like, like, terms that if you know religious communities, they they activate them. The flip side to this is there's a response to this. Mallory McMorrow who is a young democrat. She's from Michigan, white woman, suburban woman mother and actually Catholic. A GOP colleague of hers called her a groomer, and she finally responded video went viral, and it kinda, like, really boosted her is she took four-and-a-half minutes to respond. So number one, you have to respond. She responded proactively by identifying as a white mom and a Catholic, and she said her religious values teacher to lead with love, not hate. She responded because she saw that this language was being used to attack LGBTQ kids. And she said, you won't be able to do that by claiming and hijacking religion. My religion teaches me love and compassion for the other. So this is where by using that language, flexing with her whiteness, flexing as a mom, and flexing with her Christian identity, she was able to reclaim it. and she was able to give a narrative to religious community and said, oh, yeah. You know what? We think that this is in Haram. We don't like it, but do we really wanna be this cruel? Do we really wanna focus on this? Do we really wanna be this mean? Yeah. That's not right. and it appeals to the better nature of religious communities. Right? Another example I'll give where I give a shout out to Pete Buttigieg and Joe Biden. Joe Biden's Catholic. Pete Buttigieg is religious, and he speaks with that religious language. And a lot of liberals are like: God, why does he talk about religious? So stupid. I'm like: do you wanna win elections? Have you traveled across American? The answer is no. Like and so this is where it's a great disservice. to Democrats who are trying to fight for democracy, and it's a great disservice to religious communities that they are being tempted as I'm speaking right now by bad faith right wing actors who do not like Jews or Hindus or Muslims and are using them co-opting them to attack the Ts right now. And after they're done with the Ts, Meli, guess who they're gonna turn on? The rest of us, which is why you need religious leaders in this moment to lead with love and to give a big picture narrative and say, listen. We have difference of opinions. We live in a multicultural society. It's a tall salad society. They don't wanna agree with everything with us. We wanna agree everything with them. But guess what? That community that they're attacking right now? That community, even though that community might not be a fan of religious communities, for a variety of reasons, that community came out and stood with us during the Muslim ban. And maybe it's time we stand up for them because in this time right now, all of us are looking for dignity and freedom, and each of us and our families have a right to live with security and peace and those forces are using an abusing god, religion, and Jesus to spread hate, and they ain't gonna do it with our help. and they ain't gonna do with our god, and they ain't gonna do with our religious language. That is a type of leadership I would like to see, and that's the type of language I would like to see from our religious leaders in a way that doesn't compromise their morality and ethics and their values, but at the same time, inspires them and forces them to stand up for ethics values decency and kindness. So thank you for coming to my TED Talk and my sermon. It's something I think about a lot because I see it working. It's working like gangbusters, man. They they are really Meli, I'm telling you, moms for Liberty and these right wing Tea Party folk are being invited to our local mosques and the people, they were like, yes. Yes. Give them five minutes on the microphone to do fear-mongering about CRT and Woke. And you know how they launder it through religious freedom? And the people just eat it up, eating a poison.

Meli  [00:48:05]:

Yep. Absolutely. And it's the power of being a mom. Right? This is especially with the Moms for Liberty. The question is, how the heck do you attack moms. Right? It's like as sacred as apple pie in America. So that that's obviously a challenge I'd like to end on a small question. What top Muslim value would you like to have more present in our world today?

Wajahat [00:48:33]:

Well, that's very it's a very good question. That's a very good question. The first thing that jumped up to mind, but I I don't know if I'm gonna go with that answer, is intentionality because so much in Islam is about intention. Even if you have a good intention to do something you don't do it, I'll let it rewards you. With intention and the type of intentionality that I'm talking about, you need to have awareness. and you need to be aware of what's happening inside you. In order to work on your ego and your demons, you need to be aware of what's happening around you. you need to be aware of what's happening in the world. You gain knowledge that way. You maintain and stimulate your curiosity. And as they say in Islam, to know your selfish, to know your creator. I mean, I'm giving you an answer what you might not might not like or might be a left field answer, but it was the first one that came out. and I wanna reclaim intentionality. Right? If if we can reformat our intentions to be more selfless and to be more aware of what's happening outside of ourselves, maybe inshallah, it can inspire more selfless actions. And if inspires more selfless actions, maybe that will engender more empathy and more community and more love because at the end of the day, those of our spiritual masters who are closest to God, as we say, the the Olia, the willia love, they spend their whole lives starving the ego, thinking outside of themselves, donating everything, feeding people, feeding enemies to the point where in India right now, we're seeing the rise of Hindu fascism. You have to name it, and you have to call it. There's an ongoing hunger that's been going on for a 100 years. Lunger means like food, like free food, and that, hunger is being dispensed in a place in India called Ajamir. And the reason why that place is so beloved is because it was the place of a a Muslim Sunni. And he went there all by himself, and it didn't matter if it was frenemy, enemy, foe, Hindu, his life was full of service and helping people. That's all he did. And that Lunger that he established 100 years ago feeds everyone to this day. and you go there in that place, and if you god forbid make fun of moiety than Chisti, there will be a beatdown crew. There'll be six Christians, Hindu, like: ‘Yo yo yo. You don't disrespect him’. You see what I'm saying? Now it wasn't through force. It wasn't through hateful language. It wasn't through book bans. it wasn't through mocking and ridiculing the trans that this man is beloved. And his beloved selfless tradition is still alive today. It was through love. I think there's a lot of wisdom there. There's a lot of wisdom there.

Meli  [00:51:18]:

Yeah. Again, it meant to that. So the top words that I'm hearing, both in what you just said and some things you said earlier, watch a hot intentionality, strength, confidence, and love. I would add two that you implied just now – humility and generosity.

Wajahat [00:51:41]:

Yeah. Of course.

Meli  [00:51:42]:

So those are the words I'd like to leave us with today.

Wajahat [00:51:47]:

And it's and it's words where if you said those words, they would be seen as weakness in some political and cultural, places. But If you look at the prophets, that's the model. You really wanna blow people's mind and you wanna take it to the next step – who are we? Nothing in the grand scheme of things. And once those people in our religious traditions really embrace that and realize that they're a part of something greater, those are the people who really live the fullest lives and gave the most of themselves to the people around them.

Meli  [00:52:20]:

Right. But again, small note from the Jewish tradition. I'm curious if the Islamic tradition has this. We have this dual expression of: We are nothing but dust, but also, we are made in the image of God.

Wajahat [00:52:35]:

Yes. It's very similar to what you were talking about. You strive against the lower ego where you can annihilate your selfish desires by if you will, like you said, imbibing the characteristics or trying your best to reflect the characteristics of the divine. and then you become so close to the divine that you become a wally, a friend of the divine. There is a saying that says, and then he becomes a foot by which you walk, the hand by which you strike, the tongue by which you you talk, the eyes by which you see. Right? You become truly a servant and a means in a vessel. in your own self, but a self that you have voluntarily chosen voluntarily chosen. Now this is a choice. to selflessly, surrender to a higher purpose. And in that higher purpose, and this is key, it doesn't mean you sit there all by yourself in a cave for the rest of your life. It means you fulfill that purpose by serving the needs of the people and the needs of the people are always numerous.

Meli  [00:53:40]:

Indeed. Fine words to end on. Thank you so much for coming on my Living Our Beliefs podcast Wajahat. This has just been another wonderful conversation. I so appreciate it.

Wajahat [00:53:52]:

Thank you so much for inviting me. I really enjoyed it.

Meli  [00:53:56]:

Thank you for listening. if you'd like to get notified when new episodes are released, hit the subscribe button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be sent directly to info@talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. Thank you so much. till next time. Bye bye.