Combining Jewish Paths – David Satin

Episode 47.
David has traveled far, religiously speaking, from his upbringing in a largely secular Jewish home. Other than attending services at a Reform synagogue on Boston’s North Shore, there was minimal observance. Since then, he has gone through many phases, including flirting with atheism and participating in his college Hillel services, all the while maintaining the Jewish identity inherited from his parents. Over the past few years, he has found a mélange of communities. Participating in the local Chabad House and online learning with the Torah Studio satisfy his intellectual, service attendance and spiritual needs. While combining Orthodox and liberal communities is unusual, it suits David well. Besides his religious life, he is a practicing attorney in a non-profit firm and finds a meaningful connection between the law and Talmudic study, whereby both majority and minority opinions are preserved and honored. Additionally, he and his family spend as much time as possible in his wife’s native home of Mallorca, Spain, where he revels in the vibrant collection of Jews attending the one synagogue.


Highlights:
00:03:41 Rediscovering Jewish identity through college and beyond.
00:08:20 Comfortably exploring Jewish identity, politically liberal. Found fitting communities through happenstance.
00:13:22 "The bathroom thing: Strange but practical prayer"
00:23:21 Unexpected encounter leads to involvement with Chabad.
00:33:51 Supportive spouse from Spain integrates into Jewish life.
00:39:13 Judaism and law practice share connections.

Social Media links for David:
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-satin-8367b92b/
Niv Magazine – https://nivmag.com/


Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271

Transcript:   https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/13460103-combining-jewish-paths-david-satin


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The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. When you hear about how observant Christians, Jews and Muslims live their faith, new ideas and questions arise:  Is your way similar or different?  Is there an idea or practice that you want to explore?  Understanding how other people live opens your mind and heart to new people you meet. 


Comments?  Email  Méli – info@talkingwithgodproject.org

The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/

Transcript

David Satin transcript

Combining Jewish Paths

Meli  [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs. A home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up

David [00:02:25]:

Oh, I'm I'm really thrilled. thank you for inviting me, and it's great to be here.

Meli  [00:02:30]:

I'm going to start with my usual first question. What is your religious and cultural identity?

David [00:02:36]:

I'll give you an easy answer. I'm Jewish religiously. not particularly observant, depending on who you ask and culturally, I'm also Jewish.

Meli  [00:02:46]:

And by looking at you, you are white, and I believe you're American.

David [00:02:52]:

oh, that's correct. Yes.

Meli  [00:02:53]:

Okay. How were you raised? What was what was your upbringing, Jewishly?

David [00:02:59]:

I was raised reform. When my family moved, into the town that my parents still live in, we became involved in the reform synagogue I did the obligatory, you know, 2 hours of of Hebrew school. in Sunday school, I was bar mitzvah, I was given the opportunity to be confirmed, to be honest. I don't know if that is a reform terminology or if most Jews get confirmed or not, that said I opted not to. However, I did wanna take the classes. So I took all of the classes and I bailed on the confirmation ceremony told the rabbi I had a time that I would be

Meli  [00:03:37]:

Let's dive into your practice.

David [00:03:41]:

I always considered myself Jewish, but had sort of stopped practicing until I went to college at college, I found myself going to the Hello House regularly on Friday nights. And for holidays, I never really stopped going for the high holidays. But the first time I was really doing, Shabbat, we didn't we didn't do Shabbat at home. My my parents are not particularly religious. A long way between here and now, I'm 37, and this is when I was about 18. Currently, I have found myself a regular minion participant on Saturday mornings at a Chabad Shul I also attend classes online. They're called the Torah Studio. They're created by Liana Wortman, you know, I I described as feminist and Trans-led, Torah classes, Havruta style, and then I do my own personal practice and and education on the side.

Meli  [00:04:39]:

Because this podcast reaches people of various religions that education is a a hugely important foundation. I just wanna touch on a couple of words that you've mentioned that the audience may not know I have noted 3. 1, your comment about confirmation. I think that's a really interesting. I'm gonna throw that out to the audience and maybe somebody can answer this question. I will also be researching that. The next word is Hillel. Can you explain what Hillel is?

David [00:05:10]:

The name is taken from an ancient sage, from Judaism. There were essentially 2 houses of thought Hillel and and Shumai. Hillel was known as being very charitable and inclusive, generally speaking. many college campuses have a Hillel house, which is a place where, students and faculty can meet and live and do Jewish. There's generally different services for different types of practitioners. You can enjoy an English led or a a Hebrew led service, whether you're Orthodox or or Conservative or Reform, and then you all meet together to, have Shabbat dinner together. That was my experience of Hillel. So I think I'm probably missing some pointers, but it's it's open free inclusive for for anyone identifying as Jewish. to, practice, holidays, including the the weekly Shabbat.

Meli  [00:06:03]:

The third word I noted is Hevruta. What's that about?

David [00:06:08]:

Hevruta is this really, really cool learning style. So Hevruta is two people you both learn together. You both study a text together. And this might be with someone who's, you know, far more learned than you are or is newer than you are or exactly on your level. Right? You don't need to be perfectly aligned. The idea is that we each have something to learn from one another. Ideally, there's 3 parties. There's each individual in the text, and you're supposed to be very respectful of the text while also challenging it. you don't have to take it as truth or given necessarily. You're you're needling, the text together and hopefully developing your own thoughts about it and your own ideas about it while receiving someone very different than your thoughts about it as well. So in the Torah Studio, what we do is we will read a passage of text. I I'm usually in the Parsha class, which is the weekly Torah or or Hebrew Bible portion, but there's other classes for, you know, the Psalms or or other things. So we'll read a portion of text. We will get in our Hebrew group for, half the class. and go through the text slowly together. And then we'll come back as a full class led by one of the instructors and sort of sort of have a a hive mind about it.

Meli  [00:07:32]:

One of the things that I find really interesting in how you are currently practicing, David, is that you have quite an unusual mix of attending a Chabad house, which is for those in the audience, not familiar. This is really within the orthodox. community. Chabad is famous for its outreach. It sends married couples all over the world. to begin communities. Christians would call it church planting. And yet you also have this liberal leaning. And I'm really curious about how this sits for you, how you accommodate these quite disparate perspectives?

David [00:08:20]:

in a word comfortably. Part of it is intentional and part of it is is totally unintentional. When I say that, you know, I've done a lot of searching for what works for me. I've gone through all the normal Jewish phases from flirting with atheism and being agnostic and sort of a a chip on my shoulder to being very open and accepting and loving. So I'm constantly searching for my place in the Jewish sector, the only thing I'm sure about is that I am Jewish when it comes to these 2 different parts of my Jewish identity. I guess I can only say I am what I am. Politically speaking, I am very liberal. I try to live my life by the principles that I I think are important. That's what I do as a profession. it's it's the way I I intend to to be in the world. religiously, I really like to be lost in a little over my head. If I understand exactly what's going on I'm not totally comfortable. I think there's there's something in religion akin to to awe for me. And and I think being confused helps to put me in sort of that mindset. That said, all of this was accidental. I happened upon 2 really, really wonderful communities and I don't know what all Abad houses are like. I also don't know what all online, Jewish learning institutions are like, but these 2 really fit my mold. And, you know, I I'd be happy to explain how I got involved in in each of them if that's helpful, but it really was happenstance after a lot searching. I I feel like I I found a good fit for myself by participating in multiple different venues.

Meli  [00:09:57]:

Yeah. So much of life is happen, Stance. So I I'd like to hear about the online part. What is that? I also wonder if when you talk about being involved in the online community, whether this is connected to, as you say in your bio, you're Jewishly themed poems that have appeared in poetica magazine and Niv Magazine. Am I pronouncing that correctly?

David [00:10:26]:

Yes.

Meli  [00:10:27]:

Okay. Are those things happening in the same sphere, or is the online Jewish community something separate from your Jewishly themed poems?

David [00:10:38]:

Yes and no. I mean, it I I I suppose it's mixed, also by by happenstance, I'm really I'm really shy about my writing and poems. I really love writing. I'm not sure if you've noticed this, but the only people that that appear to love poetry or people that write poems I'm, like, a little reserved about it. That said, you know, I I did share a a poem I'd written, you know, why thought was humorous to this online group that I'm part of and someone who runs one of these 2 magazines approached me and asked me about featuring a few of the poems and and her magazine was Niv. So, yes, that's related. Poetica, I I just submitted to on a whim. I I got a notification about them and what they do, and I liked it. And I had a poem that I felt was if anyone knew who I was talking about, it it would be a Jewish audience, and this was a Jewish magazine. so it it seemed like the right fit.

Meli  [00:11:29]:

No. It's great. Getting published is is a thing of honor. So I if I were you, I'd wear that with pride. Can you say more about whatever the other online connection is? What is the name of that community? How does it work?

David [00:11:46]:

So it's all tour studio. I joined tour studio after I was involved with the Chabad. I felt like I was getting a lot of education from the books that I was reading and and what I was studying, I felt like I was getting my my spiritual itch scratched at the pod and really wonderful community there. The thing that I I really felt that I was lacking was this sort of you know, more intellectual discourse about the material. I'm probably describing 90% of of your Jewish audience here, but, you know, a lot of what I do with the to struggle with it. And I think that's what it's there for. I I like doing that, and I wanted a place where I could do that without having myself as a sounding board. An artist that I I followed on social media, you know, was teaching a course at the Torah Studio, which is how I first heard about it. He was also featured on a on a podcast. I listened to, called Judaism Unbound, and on a whim, I I wanted to learn Perkei Avot, which is wisdom of our fathers. It's it's the sages on ethics. So I started there, and I just I really fell in love with this community I loved the class structure. Everyone that I was paired with as a havruta taught me something. It also has this community you can chat online with each other and the class about the class, which is where I had posted this this, one particular poem that had to do with Jewish prayers involving bathrooms. Again, I'm I'm really honored that my my havruta and classmate liked it enough to to put it in her magazine I'm definitely grateful and and feel very privileged for that. But that that's how it's connected.

Meli  [00:13:22]:

The bathroom thing is interesting. And and, again, just for educational purposes, what I thought of immediately is the daily goal, especially for the orthodox, but anyone can take this on is to say a 100 prayers a day, which really is about 1 every 10 minutes, which is a lot. There are prayers for everything, you know, for fruit and wine and bread and miscellaneous food and on and on and on seeing a rainbow. doing something for the first time. That happens to be one of my favorites. And there is one before you go to the bathroom. which is really strange. I mean, that is definitely one of the weirder. I feel a bit like I'm telling tales out of school here, but That is definitely one of the weirder things about our religion, but it's also a beautiful idea. And, basically, the prayer is saying, may the parts of my body that should stay shut, stay shut, and the things that should open, should open. And for me, you know, once you get over the weirdness of it, the beauty is that it reflects the extremely practical angle of Judaism. That in point of fact, our bodies don't function if the things that should stay closed open and vice versa. I mean, we really this is when you end up in the hospital. You know, I think things go seriously wrong fast. So it's kinda weird, but it's also an acknowledgement that we live in a body, in a physical body, and it needs to work. And and it's a point of gratitude and a prayer that let's, have it keep working. Was that at all connected to your poem about the bathroom?

David [00:15:11]:

so much. I I mean, you you said so many things that that ring true to me. First and foremost, I just thought it was funny. I mean, I went down this rabbit hole and it was wild stuff. All that said, it really did come from this place of gratitude. A line that sticks out to me is that your body has these wondrous hollows that form miracles. And I think it's a real example of of finding the sacred and the mundane and and, you know, maybe even profane. Like, I I think I got the idea of the poem by listening to a rabbi talk about how you're not supposed to learn Torah or say particular prayers in the bathroom, you know, like the Shamah and these really important prayers because it's desecrating them, but then the dichotomy of actually having all of these beliefs and prayers about thank you for the working body. This is great. It's doing exactly what it's meant to be doing, and I feel better about that. it was a really interesting dichotomy to me that was very silly and very funny, but also deep and profound, like, like, a lot of funny things And so I agree with everything you're saying. I think particularly the gratitude, I'd also and I think you were saying the same thing. I would just frame what you said is finding the sacred in the mundane things that we do every day kind of taking a moment and and saying, it doesn't have to be this way. It didn't have to be this way, and and thank God it is.

Meli  [00:16:30]:

And also, I appreciate your comment about the silliness. You know, the humor in the mundane or the humor in the seriousness. Right? The seriousness of, thank God, my body is functioning today.

David [00:16:43]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:16:44]:

And God, isn't this ridiculous that, you know, outside the bathroom, we're saying this prayer, I'd also note, again, just for the educational purposes, that when you're at synagogue, if you wear a tallit, which is the prayer shawl, you do not take that into the bathroom. You'll see posts outside each bathroom that you you hang your tallit on. And then when you come out, you you put it on again and you kiss it. And that again is connected to what you were just saying, David, about the sacred and the profane and and respecting honoring the sacred and that there are all kinds of moments where we can do that. And I'm also thinking back to what you were saying just a few moments ago about your search atheism and struggling. And I think a lot of us have gone through that, but it is so interesting to to hear the particular stories.

David [00:17:43]:

Thank you. Thank you. when I was in college and sort of going through this phase where I'm not a believer, I find this absurd, and yet I find myself week after week. engaging in in Shabbat services and feeling really at home and comforted in a way I reached out to to rabbis, one that I I had used to know and and one from the well that I was going to, and they they each shared with me something different. I don't remember the conversations perfectly, but I remember these two aspects of them. The one from the Hillel l had had shared with me this kind of cliche. It was the first time I heard it, so it really wasn't cliche to me. But but the story that I've heard repeated since then about, you know, a son asking his father, gee, we we don't believe in God. Why are we going to to synagogue every Friday? and the father saying, well, you know, Benjamin goes to talk to God and we go to talk to Benjamin. The other takeaway I have is is speaking to my rabbi from when I was bar but and, you know, I I feel kind of strange about going, you know, as if my prayers were solving the prayers of the believers. I was sort of in this ironic paradoxical way worried that, you know, I was somehow, dirtying the prayers of these true believers you know, he shared with me something that it's a truism. I don't know if it's true, but I I imagine it's true-ish that anyone in his position who has been ordain some sort of religious leader. Probably at some point has wondered, what am I doing? Am I really doing this? Do I really believe in all of this? That's not exactly how he put it, but the sort of questioning about one's path. And I think that's really important to know about our leaders. We know about about our leaders in the Bible, you know, in the Torah, they were all struggling, and that's where the gold in the story is, but it's sort of interesting to think of these people who I'd look to for questions as saying join the club. That's why we're here.

Meli  [00:19:31]:

Yeah. Thank you for saying that, David. It It is important. I really appreciate that you bring up this question of speaking with rabbinic leaders are really our clergy of whatever stripe about our experience and what we may be feeling uncomfortable about It's also put me in mind of one of my research interviews for the Talking with God Project. This is, a man who is now a philosophy professor, but as a boy, was in Jewish day school and the whole schmeel, in talking about our practice and how we were relating to Judaism, he said something about, well, If you're not struggling, there's a problem. I have really taken his message on board. For us, Jews, It is not about coming to some kind of finite, clear fix position. This is not where we're trying to go. This is really about an ongoing wrestling wrestling with text, wrestling with god, wrestling with ourselves. And as, as you mentioned earlier, David, doing so often with a Havruta partner. So you're in dialogue with each other, with yourself, and with the text. And perhaps with God, it's that depends on how you feel about the role of god.

David [00:21:01]:

I love that. And I I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, I really maybe other people feel this about their faith and maybe other Jews. Don't feel this about Judaism, but I I really feel like the truth in Judaism is in that struggle. We are told to wrestle with the text We're not told to just take something and accept it. We're really told to grapple with it. Hence, the idea of Jacob becoming Israel and Something that I've definitely found in both of the communities that I'm a part of is the ability to raise questions, questions that might be challenging questions that might be unsettling, questions that some might be uncomfortable with throughout my my search for the right synagogue, the right congregation, I found so many wonderful places, but I haven't always felt as though I could be fully inquisitive or that I couldn't resist or reject certain opinions, whether or not they came from the Torah, even if if if they were just political, you know, I really felt like be one of us. You have to accept these norms. And I find that really frustrating. And so I think I found myself in these two communities. And again, I mean, I can only speak for the the Chabad House that I'm at. I can only speak for the online classroom that I'm in, but I'm able to say things that people don't necessarily agree with and yet I remain part of the community. There isn't so much a pushback. There isn't a need for for censorship or to be hush on a particular issue. I feel that even when I've been respectful about keeping my opinion to myself or quiet or one to one that it can become part of the community discussion That struggle, whether it's individual or as part of a congregation, I think, is integral to my understanding of Judaism. if you accepted everything, it it wouldn't be a lifelong learning project. Right? You could be done at a certain point. I think its metal is in the that it's it's been going on for as long as it has with the same unresolved answers or the same arguments about what those answers could be.

Meli  [00:23:05]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Before we go on, I do wanna just ask a little more about the Chabad community you're in relieving names out. But can you give us a sense of how big it is and and who's who's running the show?

David [00:23:21]:

I'd love to. when I moved to the town that I live in, I was unaware that I was three doors away from a Chabad. I was still looking for my my Jewish community. I have the the nightmare story of how I ran into them, and I also have the beautiful story of how I ran into them. The truth is both of them. I was working from home one day work was ending. I was checking the news online, and I saw that my town was trending mostly because there had been a bear found in people's backyards, but I I did recognize one of the houses in the picture, and it was this house that was just a few doors away from mine. And it talked about how a rabbi's house had had been attacked by an arson. Clearly a hate crime, they'd they'd hit another Chabad House in another town after that. It was it was targeted. You know, just recognizing the house don't know what I was thinking. I kinda just ran out out of my house and to theirs knocked on the door. A woman about my age answered the door. I told her that I recognized her house and heard that they had been attacked by an arson. And she said, well, which time. It it's happened twice in the past week. We talked a little bit. She she had a young child, had a young child, so we both had to get going. in any case, maybe a few weeks later, I was walking by with with my baby in a stroller. It was Rosh Hashanah, which I always take from work, but I didn't have a a synagogue to go to maybe for the first year and quite a while. I passed by a guy who was standing outside the house And, you know, just just a sort of a a tip of the hat. Like, I'm in the club sort of thing. I I said Shanah tova, which means, you know, happy new year. and he said it back to me, lo and behold, he was a Maccabee. He was essentially standing guard since that attack had happened and and people were in. But recognizing the funny words coming out of my mouth, he he wished it back to me and said, hey. You know, if you have no order to go for you on Yom Kippur, you should come by. And I did. And that's how I got involved. I I've been involved now for four years. It was a great introduction, but I I didn't have to remain there. There's certainly a lot of other options in my area. I just I love this family. They are the first people that I I left my child unsupervised with. I was doing doing tour readings, and I'm gonna pause here because I'm having difficulty with, you know, I'd I'd mentioned this to you at the beginning. I don't know what to call the rabbi's wife in this context because I feel like I would normally just use their first names, but I feel like while our rabbi is a superb leader of our very small community. His wife is just as much an active leader different terminologies aside. It feels pretty egalitarian. She does a lot of the planning and a lot of the leading, and I think we all look to her as a leader as well as we look to our rabbi as a leader. I don't know what to call her here. I could say rabbi's wife or Rebbetzin, which means Rabbi's wife, but it feels like I'm defining her by who she's married to. The entire family is more than that to me.

Meli  [00:26:17]:

Fair enough. And thank you for mentioning about the names and the awkwardness. And this is, I think, in pretty much any community where there's a couple and one person is an official leader. And then there's the spouse. And if the spouse is really involved in the community. There isn't there's a naming question. In Orthodox communities, again, for the audience, only men can be rabbis. In everything to the left, the Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, and Renewal, women can also be rabbis. And there are lots of them and lots of wonderful rabbis. But in the Orthodox and anything to the right of Orthodox, only men can be. So the women, the wives of those who are allies do tend to be in a, in a helpmate kind of position. They tend to be in the kitchen and helping with the women and the children and the normal service in an Orthodox synagogue. The men and women are seated separately in pews to the side or in the back. or upstairs. What is the case in in the Chabad house you go to, David?

David [00:27:36]:

Yeah. I'm I'm really glad you asked that question. because this is where both some of my discomfort and comfort come in. As I mentioned, politically speaking, I'm I'm certainly very liberal and egallitarian is the first time other than visits to other synagogues where, you know, there's the one side as men, one side is women. And that was that was a very weird thing for me. Again, you know, I I could have stopped going anytime I wanted to. If it was a deal breaker, I I think the fact that it was it's like, you know, two, maybe three artificial plants with, you know, kids and people passing back and forth. The fact that all of the congregates, regardless of gender, are involved in the services, but there was this instance one time in we had, if for a minion in Judaism, at least in in Orthodox Judaism to read from the Torah, you need ten

David [00:28:29]:

Men of bar mitzvah age. So thirteen and up. And otherwise, you you can't read from the Torah. and our synagogue, you know, we're we're on a roll here. Like, I think, you know, we we've had a minion for a good half year least. May maybe even more than that, you know, it's it's definitely a a growing community, but it was one day that we had 9 men and maybe 3 women, and we didn't open the door. Afterwards, the the family always treats us to a lunch. We were talking, and I didn't wanna start anything too controversial. So I I I was trying to be polite, and I sort whispered to the rabbi. You know, I I I can't really wrap my mind around this. I could have been sitting in the back with magazine, and I would have counted towards a minion But of the three or four women on the other side, I mean, th these are people that are they're smarter than me. They are more observant than me. They're more in the lifestyle than I am. and the fact that they don't qualify, I'm not sure if I can sit with that comfortably. One of the women, by the way, was his wife. she wasn't involved in this conversation. She actually had left to do something else, but his response to me instead of answering me directly He opened it up first by asking this eighteen-year-old woman who is there, you know, the this is what David said, and I'm interested in in hearing what people think about it. and it opened up this really great discussion. I didn't find any of his answers satisfactory, but what I really appreciated was the fact that he made it a conversation with everyone and opened it to everyone didn't cut anyone off, didn't take one guy's opinion, but rather the whole congregation in including the women who are actually implicated. I'm not an apologist. People practice the way that they want to practice, and sometimes I'm comfortable with that, and sometimes I'm uncomfortable with that. I really, really appreciated the fact that he didn't whisper an answer back to me or say, hey. You know, let's let's talk about this when people get out of here. But the first thing he did was turn to the woman of the youngest age there, also far more intelligent and and observant than I am and and opened it starting with her to the rest of the congregation. That's more comfortable than a lot of the liberal progressive congregations that I've been a part of where maybe my my politics on Israel or my feelings on any numb multitude of issues don't don't comport with them, and therefore, it's it's an uncomfortable thing to talk about. I really appreciate that about this particular congregation. And I know this congregation is all over the map. There's people to the left of me. There's definitely people to write of me. Not what we tend to talk about when we're praying. and that is also a unique, circumstance to be in in this day and age with people who don't necessarily have all of the same beliefs that I have, whether those are religious or political.

Meli  [00:31:17]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And, of course, I wanna know, do you recall some of the points that came out of that conversation?

David [00:31:25]:

I do. I do. And I I'll answer you briefly because it feels kind of unfair of me. I mean, first of all, I don't agree with the points, so I'm I'm already for training them in a negative light, but they're not my, you know, my words, and I'm not sure I'll do them justice. One point that he had made to me to the congregation, I should say, is that women are just as welcome as men to participate in the prayer ceremony, but they are not obligated. and therefore, I, as a man, cannot allow a woman to take my responsibility off my shoulders. she can't take that from me, I still have to do it. And I like that point. I don't agree with it. I think it's I think it's a little sloppy it still begs the question. Well, so the the women there that day also couldn't read from the story. They were still there. Why couldn't that have counted? But at that point, at first blush, I liked a lot. Other than that, he really did think that a minion should be any Jewish adult, but essentially that it was not up to him alone to change a long-standing tradition, and and that answer, I found very unsatisfactory. And I I told him that, and, we we discussed it. Neither of the programs I'm working in nor my own individual study are completely ideal, which is why I I think mixing works a lot for me. And I should also point out the fact that I have a I have a ton of privilege here. Right? I can walk into any synagogue, any congregation, and I'm included. I mean, the fact that I go to an orthodox Schull is one thing, but I also go to a space to learn that wasn't necessarily created for me. I'm included in it. It's it's a very inclusive setting. I think it was a setting that was created to include everyone that, might otherwise feel unincluded. And I am just as welcome to participate in that as I am in the Orthodox synagogue. So I am speaking from a place of very big privilege, and and I understand that.

Meli  [00:33:23]:

Thank you for acknowledging your privilege. It's important. There are other things I wanna touch on here. You noted in your bio that your wife, Carolina, is Spanish and that that you spend some time each year in Spain. with her family. So I'm really interested to know how that is for you. What do you do as a Jew? What do you practice when you're in Spain?

David [00:33:51]:

Yeah. That's that's a great question. I'm not only fortunate to have found, you know, someone so intelligent in supportive, but the fact that she comes from my York, Spain, and I have to visit that is just it's it's a really great bonus. Her mom, I don't I don't think she met any Jews before me. It's just her and her mom in Spain, she she didn't grow up with a father or siblings. She came to this country 11 years ago when we met. we're now married, and and we have four year old son Yeah. So we we go there generally in the winter for a month or two. She used to go longer and more frequently before we had a child, and now we you know, I wanna stick together. so, you know, we'll go there and her mom will will come and stay with us, in the summers. She's she's here now. I sometimes wonder if it would have been different had I married someone who was just as atheistic as my spouse, but Jewish, because Carol has just been so incredibly supportive and involved in in my religious life. Again, I think that's another privilege. Like, it's my religious life, and she's being very, very, participatory in that. when I started lighting shabbat candles for the first time in my life, she learned the prayer and and, you know, lights them with me every week, and we still do that. she started making hola with me. She's real good friends with the rabbi and and his wife and and the family. You know, she's included in in everything that that we do. they're all really helpful and, encouraging without being pushy. You mentioned that Chabad is kind of church planting The subtle distinction I would make is that they're not evangelizing. It's it's not so much about outreach as it is about in reach. You know, if if you're if you're Jewish and you're not practicing, I mean, man, they're they're gonna it to you and and pull you in. But if if you're not, then, you know, you're free to go. There's no pressure there about joining us or anything like that. but I am surprised at how inclusive they are given the fact that they're Orthodox. We're not the only under faith couple there, and we're certainly not the only, you know, progressively minded people there. So, you know, a lot of things have been surprising. When I go to Spain, her mom is a terrific, wonderful per and she's very open minded. I I've I've been to Spain a number of times even before I met my wife. And, you know, a lot of times that you first meet someone who who's never met at you before. I I got a lot of wear your horn questions. Her mom at this point, when we visit, I think, you know, maybe it was a year or two ago, she bought a menorah for me before we got there because we were gonna be there during Hanukkah. She she does the the candles and and the challah and the wine with us on Friday nights while she's here. And I happen to find the only synagogue in the Balearic Islands. So Majorca is where my wife is from and Ibiza, Menorca, and Formentera, the the other three islands, they're they're sort of off the coast of Barcelona a little bit. the Mediterranean. Apparently, the the only synagogue in the Balearic Islands is in my wife's, home city of of Palma about a 35, 40 minute walk from her mom's apartment. And so when I, when I get there that we arrived on a on a Friday night last winter and I walked write down and made it just in time. The services are in Hebrew. I've I've recognized the the songs and and the words, but everything else is in Spanish, and I do my best It's great. I have no complaints.

Meli  [00:37:13]:

What a great experience. I am guessing since it's in Spain that these are Sephartic Jews. Right?

David [00:37:20]:

No. So you would think so. so this is really interesting. It feels like an amalgamation of everything. You know, so anyone who found themselves in my York, you know, people that are visiting, people that live there, there are certainly sephardic Jews that go there. There's also Ashkenazi Jews that go there. There are people who are clearly very observant. There are people like me who are are looking for their yarmulka on the right pocket and can't seem to find it. You know, I mean, the it's it's really, really all over the place, and you can find books there from all sorts of different languages that people have have donated. So it's it's really, really cool, but there is this less religious, more cultural historic aspect to this group that's affiliated with the synagogue, and we've done all sorts of walking tours and, stuff like that there's a long Jewish history and all of Spain, including Majorca. And and so there's been a lot of, like, uncovering of different important figures and events in neighborhoods and families from my or there's a Jewish neighborhood. I I don't think any Jews live there now. I could be wrong about that. But, yeah, there's some history there that's really, really great, and that would be, Sephardic. But the synagogue is exactly the way I like it. It's a big mix of people You can't really, demography them.

Meli  [00:38:37]:

The whole mishpocha?

David [00:38:39]:

Yes. Yes. Well put.

Meli  [00:38:41]:

So interesting. And that's that's another bit of research and exploration that would be so interesting to learn about the history and how did this all come about? So, yeah, super interesting. Thank you for explaining that. Alright. Well, we've been talking for a long time. I do wanna just ask, does any of this show up in your law practice? Or is that kind of a different part of your life and not relevant to this?

David [00:39:13]:

I think it's pretty relevant even during ups and downs in my in my spiritual and religious practice. I've I've always really defined myself as a Jew. It's kind of been my number one identity, label, like, as a shorthand, almost every decision I've made has been as a Jew. I mean, I I came from parents who were not particularly practicing, but they were such wonderful influences and enroll models in my life, and they came from Jewish families who came from Russia and and Lithuania and Ukraine, I imagine that a lot of my decisions, even the unconscious ones come from from this tradition, I think the law is so fascinatingly akin to Judaism in so many respects. So the easy answer to your question is Tikkun olam. Right? I am representing people who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford an attorney when their children have unmet mental health needs generally in the realms of of special education and school discipline, like expulsions and and suspensions when their juvenile court involved, and maybe they have status offenses or or criminal offenses, I think I could kind of give that easy Tikkun olam answer. Not that I don't believe it, and I'm not belittling because I think it's there. And it's definitely something that is important to me and that my mom in particular really, really fed into me growing up. But I I also think that the connections go a lot deeper. The parts of the law that I love remind me so much of of different Jewish practices and teachings. An example I think I shared with you was how case law to me is is very calm unique in that in the Talmud, which is a book of our our sages, mostly from, I think, the early medieval and late antiquity, you know, after the destruction of the second temple, when they were going back and forth for centuries, over what rabbi said, what about this line of Torah? They always include the dissenting opinion. Even if there's a majority and there's only one dissenter that one dissenting rabbi's opinion is in there. And it's memorialized, and you can make your mind up about it. you know, as we were saying earlier, in my mind, Judaism is less about dogma and more about the actual grappling of the questions. That to me is the most Beautiful thing that I can I can read what nine of the rabbis decreed, but I still get to read what the 10th rabbi decreed, even though it was different. and it came from a different place, and I can weigh that. And and I don't need to go with the majority opinion. Sure. I think it's it's what most rabbis would accept in congregations, especially if the Orthodox would accept, and it's been taught for years years years, but we've we've memorialized the disagreement and the reason behind the disagreement. And that's what we have with court cases with dissent and consenting opinions where you know, we we've arrived at a different conclusion or the same conclusion for different reasons, and here's why that preserves it to appeal later. Right? None of this is divine. The the rabbis, North of judges have these powers of prophecy, and thus, they're liable to human error. it really informs my law practice that we can grapple not only with conclusion, but rationality, I I find that connection between the practice of law and the practice of Judaism pretty fascinating. They might end with an answer, but it might not be an answer that you have to accept. It can be one that you can continue to needle with. So that that is something. Also, I and I don't mean this as a stereotype, but we Jews are prone argument. Right? I mean, that that's kind of what we do. It's kind of how I was taught both in grappling the text and even even with Hevruta, not not to be mean about it, not to be antagonistic, but to challenge someone's opinion so that they can make stronger or that they can see the light. I mean, I get into a lot of arguments, but I I concede, a lot of them, not professionally. I don't concede any professionally, but Personally, like, you know, I think that's really, really important to both stick to what you believe to be true, but to be vulnerable enough you kinda see the light and say, alright. You know, I gotta think about that. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I think Judaism not only allows us to do that. I I think it teaches us to do that.

Meli  [00:43:24]:

Amen to that. Alright. Well, on that note, David, we're going to bring this to a close. This has been such a rich conversation. I really appreciate it. And I really hope frankly that you and I can be Havruta partners at some point about just about anything. I I just have really appreciated this conversation. Thank you for coming on my Living Our Beliefs podcast and I wish you a good evening and continued wrestling with the ideas and with the text and yourself.

David [00:43:55]:

Really, I would love to be your Havruta partner, reach out to me anytime. We'll we'll figure out something to study together. It was a real honor for me to be here. Thank you for fighting me and inviting me and all your great work. I've I've really enjoyed listening to, to show and reading through your your research. and I'm very honored that you invited me part of it.

Meli  [00:44:14]:

My pleasure. Okay. Take care. Bye. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to get notified when new episodes are released, hit the subscribe button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be sent directly to info@talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. Thank you so much. Till next time.