Try My Jesus – Carlton E. Smith

Episode 46.
Having traversed the spectrum of Christian denominations – from the middle (United Methodist) to the conservative (Pentecostal) then all the way to the liberal (Unitarian Universalist) – Carlton has derived a rich and appreciative perspective on living according to Jesus’ teachings.  As he notes in the Introduction of Try My Jesus: “Anyone who invites you to try Jesus is inviting you to try their Jesus.”  Structured as a year’s worth of daily reflections, Carlton quotes from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John – the four Evangelists who were contemporaries of Jesus.  He then includes his own reflections and a prompt for the reader.  These various parts for each day offer opportunities to reflect on Jesus’ teachings and how you are applying them as you take responsibility for your spiritual life.  Guiding messages are to lead a life centered in love and compassion, and that you can be fully yourself and follow the teachings of Jesus.  This is especially relevant to those on the margins of society and subject to discrimination and hate. 

Highlights:
00:08:51 Unitarian Universalism accepts diverse beliefs, including atheism.
00:10:46 Jesus is a child of God, like us.
00:15:48 Love, civil rights, and justice shape beliefs.
00:20:24 Summary: Four gospels highlight Jesus' teachings, audience includes marginalized and those seeking love.
00:26:08 Gospels ordered, structure carefully maintained, consistent reading.
00:30:36 Relying on myself, not religious leaders.
00:40:42 Seek within, find integrity, embrace love.

Social Media links for Carlton: 
Website – trymyjesus.com
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/trymyjesus
Instagram – carlton.e.smith19

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271

Transcript:    https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/13379521

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Transcript

Carlton E. Smith transcript

Try My Jesus

Meli  [00:00:05]:

Hello, and welcome to Living Our Beliefs. A home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. At work, at home, in the community, in good times, and in bad. There is no one size fits all right answer. Just a way to move forward for you, for here. For now, I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. sowed 46. And my guest today is Reverend Carleton E Smith. Carleton is the author of try my Jesus. daily reflections to free your mind, deepen your faith, and invite universal love into your life. He was ordained into the Unitarian Universalist Ministry in 1995. A graduate of both Howard University School of business and school of divinity, he was a candidate for US Congress and for the state senate in his native Mississippi. In August 2017, he was on the front line of the clergy counter protest of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. He is currently the lead for the Pacific Western Region of the Unitarian Universalist Association. Reverend Smith also serves on to refund campaign board. He lives in Holly Springs, Mississippi. His social media links are listed in the show notes. Hello, Carlton. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I'm so happy to have you on today.

Carlton [00:02:01]:

Thank you, Meli. It's delightful to be with you too. I'm I've been looking forward to this for a while.

Meli  [00:02:06]:

I'd like to start with my usual first question. What is your cultural and religious identity?

Carlton [00:02:14]:

My cultural identity is African American, and I would say particularly African American as reflected, through my Southern upbringing in Northern Mississippi and the Memphis area. And my religious identity is Unitarian Universalist. I'm an ordained Unitarian Universalist minister since 1995.

Meli  [00:02:34]:

I understand from earlier talks that you were not raised within the Unitarian Universe Church. Is that correct?

Carlton [00:02:38]:

That is correct. I was actually raised in the United Methodist church in African American United Methodist Church in particular. The United Methodist were particular in their commitment to, building congregations and communities, following the civil war in the south. So my parents actually met at an historically black Methodist school in my hometown, Holly Springs, Mississippi. So that's what I was raised. I was raised in the congregation out of which the college grew. Russ College is the name of it.

Meli  [00:03:17]:

Oh, interesting. Did you then attend that college?

Carlton [00:03:20]:

I did not. My father worked there for many years in capacities. he was the publicity person and then later on became the business manager. So I did not attend that that school. I actually went to Howard University, which is known as the mecca of Black education in Washington, DC.

Meli  [00:03:37]:

So United Methodist, and did you go from there directly to the UU church?

Carlton [00:03:44]:

I did not. On my father's side of the family, my my parents had what was be considered a certain kind of mixed marriage religiously. My mother was raised Methodist, and my dad was, Pentecostal and raised in the church of God in Christ in particular started over 100 years ago, and it's very charismatic, religious movement speaking in tongues, etcetera. And as it turns out, after I complete it, my undergraduate degree at Howard. I actually ended up joining a Pentecostal church in Washington, DC.

Meli  [00:04:13]:

How was that experience for you?

Carlton [00:04:15]:

It was familiar on one hand because, throughout my childhood and even to this day, I have cousins and aunts and uncles who were ministers and elders and missionaries. So, it was familiar from that standpoint. I would say that I appreciate it so much about this particular congregation. It's outreach to young people and its emphasis on making space for young people to find their voices and to develop ministries. And I sang in the choir, and I was on the Deacon board as a junior Deacon So it was a very powerful and positive experience for me in many ways. With the exception of some of the rather, what would I say? Antiquated? I think I would say antiquated approaches to, sociology and what was how the country was evolving. it was in the midst of the aids crisis that, became a member of this congregation and just some of the approaches and the ideas about that. Like, this was, you know, God's punishment on homosexuals and that sort of thing. was very painful to be with and some of the hostility towards unwed mothers and, you know, that sort of thing was not not so comfortable. The music was great, and the preaching was relevant, but these other things were challenges.

Meli  [00:05:30]:

So in this lifelong faith path, you've really shifted from what I would describe as kind of a a middle of the road to more conservative then you swung all the way over to the left. Just is that a fair representation? Yes. That's exactly how I describe it. And given that you are also a pastor, though I understand not actively leading a congregation, that you have found a happy home in the UU church?

Carlton [00:06:02]:

I have. When I first came across, you know, Unitarian Universalism. I was attending Seminary in Washington, DC again at Howard. one of my professors was at a local congregation, and I picked up the hymnal, and I came across the principles of unitarian universalism, which had to do with acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth and in the affirming the inherent worth and dignity of every person. And from that point, I said, well, this is a tradition that I could belong to, and I could con would continue to evolve with me as my spiritual path took me into in directions. And I thought that was a very positive thing rather than saying you have to believe this particular way all the time and forever.

Meli  [00:06:43]:

Right. And especially given your reaction to the Pentecostal beliefs. I can imagine that was a really welcoming message to find in the UU church?

Carlton [00:06:53]:

Absolutely. Inside of Unitarian Universalism, it's a non credal faith. That's the other thing that I would say was very important for me because my beliefs and my understanding about who God was and who Jesus was kept evolving over time. And as I got deeper in my faith, I started to think, well, you know, if I don't believe in this being that stands out on the edge of the universe pulling all the puppet strings and what do I believe, and it really is more of an, organic process a a God that is, all around us and innocent. That is actually is us, so there is no separation between us and the identity that we lift up.

Meli  [00:07:35]:

So God is not a puppet master. Mhmm. God is everywhere. as a former rabbi of mine would say outside and inside of me, sounds like. And that, therefore, we each have a divine spark?

Carlton [00:07:55]:

I would take it a little bit further and say that we are in what what is not God? If God is all around us and in us, then where is the where's the separation? That's that's my question. in my one of the conclusion that I've come to is that we must be that also. Although I think in through our through our human capacities. We tend to look at things as, you know, separate, and we tend to see them as being discreet and separate from one another. But we are we really separate from the air? Are we really separate for water, or or are we also air? Are we also water? Are we also earth? Yes. We are. And in terms of spirit, I think it's the same way.

Meli  [00:08:33]:

Oh, okay. What I wonder about then, Carlton, is that one of the central defining elements of Christianity is that a Christian takes Jesus as their lord and savior. Is that part of the UU church?

Carlton [00:08:51]:

I would say no. I should start off by saying that unitarian universalism is not accretal faith. So, therefore, there's not a a doctrine that people have to sign on to to believe. Different from howlers raised in United Methodist and different from Pentecostalism and United Methodist and the creed that we set every week is, I believe in God's father almighty maker of heaven Earth and Jesus Christ is only on our I guess you see, I remember it to this day because we said it, like, every week. And, inside of unitary, universalism, there's no such thing. So we've got people who are and unitary universalist and people who are atheist and people who are agnostic in Jewish and Hindu and, on and on down the line. So from that standpoint, I would say that for me personally, there was a point at which when I was involved in Pentecostalism where I did say the center's prayer, and I did accept Jesus is my lord and savior. Now as time has progressed and and I've evolved and my understanding of worldview has evolved, I see Jesus as a teacher amongst the other many teachers that have come to humankind over the generations. And I'm very grateful for the teachings, and I think there's a lot to from the life and example and the teachings of Jesus.

Meli  [00:10:01]:

Okay. Thank you for for that clarification, Carlton. I'd like to go back to this idea of having no separation between us and divinity of spirit. And I'm glad we just talked about whether Jesus is your lord and savior because these two things are the question for me. So if you're no longer saying, Jesus is my lord and savior, but you are saying that God is everywhere, and there's no separation between divinity and humanity, then are you also saying that not only is Jesus not your lord and savior, but that Jesus is not the son of God? is not both human and divine?

Carlton [00:10:46]:

I would say that Jesus is, I I would remove the gender piece from it. I I would say Jesus is a child of God. as we are all children of God and children of the divine. And I think we need to remind ourselves or I need to remind myself constantly that we use these metaphors as a way of understanding our relationship to this, divinity that we really don't have the capacity to understand or even grasp in any way. I mean, it being that this planet is 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of years old, and there have been many species that have come and gone over the course of that time. So I see, you know, this question of relationship, whether we're children of God or not as being like one of those metaphors. And there's a point at which it starts to break down, right, as people have noted. So if you're talking about Jesus in a traditional sense, God came down and gave birth to God's self is one of the ways that it could be interpreted. And then it's like, so so what are we actually talking about at that point. It's already far beyond our comprehension. So in my understanding, I would say that working within the confines of that metaphor that incomplete and imperfect that we are all children of God. And Jesus is amongst those who were as well. And I think the core of Jesus' messages was to point us in the direction of our own divinity and our own power that he did not have exclusively, but that we all have and can tap into.

Meli  [00:12:12]:

In another interview, I did with a Muslim woman One of the point she made was we're not children of God. God doesn't have children. And that right there, you know, in an interface setting, there was a real problem because the fundamental idea of who is God, where is God, and how are we relating to the divine, we're not even agreeing on the on the starting block.

Carlton [00:12:39]:

Yes. And that's one of the things that I find helpful about Unitarian Universalism at its core and not that people, you know, practice no there's no one who practices it perfectly is is that there's allowance for each person to have their own understanding about an an acknowledgement actually that each person has their own understanding about divinity, about God, about Jesus, about, you know, any all of the things of our lives, and not trying to confine people and force them into, like, one corner. And that's one of the things that I say in my book, try my Jesus is is that each person gets to choose you know, what Jesus and what divinity means to you. And so for people who regard Jesus as their personal lord and savior, I affirm that everybody's got a right to believe as they need to. That was an a very important part of my belief during the season of my life, and I would not choose or have any intention of taking anything away from anybody else. I would choose to lift up the possibility of other ways of believing and understanding, especially for people who have been wounded by, the way that Jesus and God has been presented to them, which is my humble offering in this book to present an alternative view.

Meli  [00:13:48]:

Yeah. Well, thank you. You you've beautifully led us right into the next thing, really, the core of our conversation, which is your book, try my Jesus. It was published about a year ago. I'd like to just start with talking about the title. I thought it was really interesting in your introduction. You said, quote, anyone who invites you to try Jesus is inviting you to try their Jesus, unquote.

Carlton [00:14:16]:

Yes. That really is a core principle of the book itself. Even what I'm talking about in my book is with my experience and what Jesus has meant to me and my encounters with Jesus through what my parents taught me and through my religious upbringing congregations I've been a part of and even my own life experience. So I would say that Jesus can be many things to many different people, and I again, give people the benefit of having their own unique experience. And it's informed by what our parents taught us and what we learned and how we how we've grown individually. And I think being able to affirm that and and have that as a grounding point is a powerful thing. So that's to say that even if you look at different traditions, you know, there's different ways of understanding who Jesus was and then you look at each individual believer within that tradition, you get to another level of, individuation.

Meli  [00:15:12]:

Yeah. And what I'm feeling very aware of is that part of the individuation is our individual intersectionality. And I'd I'd like to just hear a little about how the various elements of your identity, race, gender, sexuality, religion, and your Southern upbringing, I would say, is a part of that. How do those elements interact and how does the faith affect those elements. Is there a ranking of those elements for you?

Carlton [00:15:48]:

I don't know if there's a ranking. I would say that Probably the common denominator through all of that is an emphasis on the power of love, which I experienced very profoundly, from my parents from my family of origin, from my community as I was growing up at Asbury United Methodist Church in in my hometown. They're in North Mississippi. So I would say that that is a central aspect of it. And then the other thing is is that I'm, air to the civil rights movement. My both of my parents and my father, especially, was very active. We're very active in civil rights movement in Mississippi, and my father had an FBI file and was trailed by the police and and that sort of thing. He was basically a contemporary of Doctor King and Medgar Evers and these other more famous people we heard about. but was doing that on a local level in North Mississippi never achieved that level of notoriety or or of people's broader awareness. But, I would say that through that, I have a strong commitment to fairness to affirming people where they are including myself, knowing about and having personal experience of oppression as someone who's African American as someone who's gay, all of that informs my approach to my life and to religion and seeing Jesus as someone who is also on the side of people who were oppressed and a person who was seeking justice is important to me and my beliefs.

Meli  [00:17:09]:

Thank you, Carlton. Those are such powerful and important words. And I have to say these days when I hear the news and the right wing hate and fear mongering about transgender youth and book banning and just the co opting of religion, especially Christianity. Really, I do find myself thinking a lot about How is it that the right has co opted religion? And where's the left? And so I'm really pleased that that you've come on and we can talk about your book and and how and and how to kind of build up something of a voice of Jesus as as love. God, the love from God and and not the the punishing exclusionary side of of God. So that's part of why I'm so glad to have you on today.

Carlton [00:18:11]:

Thank you, Meli. And the and so the other thing that just came to me in in terms of, like, try my Jesus. I just finished watching the, 1915 film from start finished the birth of a nation. And, there is tremendous, Christian references to Christianity coming from, that film, which lifts up and celebrates the collects Klan. That's a version of Jesus as well. Of course, we see, you know, images of Jesus with, you know, a gun. They say Jesus wasn't I I can't even say the word. It's just so vulgar. But, from that, I'm saying that I, again, just underscoring the idea that it's helpful to lift up these other alternative views of like what Jesus can be and who Jesus can be in people's lives that for me is more closely related to the Jesus that I knew grow growing up versus the one that's being lifted up by the people who were promoting hate and division.

Meli  [00:19:04]:

Okay. So the Jesus your Jesus is the Jesus of love and compassion and reaching out to the dispossessed and the folks at the margins. This is what I understand from your book.

Carlton [00:19:19]:

Absolutely. And I want people to be able to see Jesus in that light. I know so many people have the image of Jesus as being this being or or this God that at the end of their lives is going to judge them, potentially cast them into the lake of fire. Some people are always looking over their shoulders concerned about, like, what, you know, Jesus is gonna do to them is this punitive judge of all humankind, and I I don't see that in the story. I think we've projected that on to Jesus out of our own ego need to judge and to punish people to control people in some circumstances. So I'm I'm grateful for a chance to lift up an alternate perspective.

Meli  [00:20:02]:

So let's take a moment to just talk about the structure and and how you see the book being used and and who you see the audience as being. I understand that it's a day by day book and that you are using, quote, from the gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, and Paul. Is that correct?

Carlton [00:20:24]:

Well, the the 4 gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And, actually, I chose to have very little reference to Paul in the book because I really wanted the emphasis to be on Jesus' teachings and Jesus's examples through what is shared in those 4 gospels. And because I feel like by the time you get to the let letters Paul never even had a personal account which Jesus see that Jesus was deceased by the time Paul was on the scene. So his Jesus was not as close in as the ones that we have account of in the gospels. Okay. Thanks for that correction. Mhmm. So can you say something about who the intended audience is? Sure. the audience is a a variety of people, I would say. I I'm especially concerned about people who have had, like, an adverse effect or were presented a very hostile version of Jesus. But, again, you know, the Jesus who's judgmental, the Jesus who's condemning the Jesus who doesn't like lgbt TQ people, the Jesus who, hates on people who choose to have sex before they're married, people who've chosen to terminate pregnancies. I mean, for everyone who's felt in some way that they have been presented with the Jesus who would condemn them and punish them. I I'm coming back to say Jesus loves you. unconditionally, and Jesus is love and your love as well. So I would say that that is the primary audience, and it's not with the intention of necessarily converting. It's unless it's a conversion to a gospel of love that I'm very much interested in for people who are not are not so inclined and people who again who have been harmed in some way by the way that Jesus or God has been presented to them in the context of conservative Christianity. I know that there are unitarian universe In fact, I've just sold out of, copies of the book at the bookstore at our annual convention. That was a wonderful thing. So, I'm grateful for that. And that was meeting people there who have already worked with a book and are taking inspiration from it. So I would say even for people who might have been raised inside of a context who might already be on the liberal spectrum. It's being used as a resource by them to support and affirm their commitment to love and justice. I would say, really, for anyone who's committed to love and justice, it's more of a, I would say, a philosophical take rather than a philosophical slash spiritual take and a practical take on how how one can live a a life, centered and loving compassion.

Meli  [00:22:44]:

How do you see the book being used?

Carlton [00:22:48]:

It's designed in the manner of a daily reflection. There's 365 daily reflections. there there's more than 1600 quotes from Jesus and the gospels. And so I just tried to boil it down to something that would work in the context of the book. people are using it as a a way of starting their day. And so people are, you know, taking time. Maybe they're reading reading it in conjunction with other meditation guides as part of their daily practice and whether at the beginning of the day or at the end of the day, I know that there are some people who will just open up to random page and let that be their inspiration. And as you mentioned, it starts off with a quote from Jesus taken from one of the gospels and then is followed by a reflection that I do that it might be a personal reflection or might be something that's relevant from headlines in the news. I do a reframe of that same verse after at the end of the reflection, and then I offer a prompt to try my Jesus prompt for people to take that action into their lives, which might have to do with reaching out with somebody in their in their lives or a writing assignment or something like that as well. So these the ways that people are are using the book.

Meli  [00:24:01]:

And I understand from conversations with various other Christians that using a a daily reader of some sort is is quite common. Is that true or have I just managed to speak to the few people who say, oh, yeah. I do this, and it I get it from the church. And --

Carlton [00:24:21]:

There are several. I remember going back to my childhood. There were it was a little monthly or maybe bimonthly meditation manual called the upper room that's basically a similar format. Then there's many others that have been published over the course of the years, as well that people draw from. And so I think it's a a pretty powerful thing one of the inspirations for the book is a course in miracles, which has a workbook that's attached to it that has 365 daily reflections as well. So I think, the idea is is that it's orienting the heart in a particular way or in reorienting it, and I think having a daily practice can be a really valuable and useful thing in terms of, staying on a spiritual journey and path, an intentional one.

Meli  [00:25:05]:

Have you used one sometime earlier in your life? Was that an inspiration for you?

Carlton [00:25:12]:

Yes. I have. As I mentioned before, the workbook from a course in miracles. Also, I think about, Iomma Van Sance of first best selling book, which was acts of faith, which were meditations for African Americans. She's a a priestess in the Yorba tradition. I understand of course, she became popular through her association with Oprah Winfrey. She started off. Her big breakthrough book was this collection of daily meditations that were quotes starting with quotes from African American riders and thinkers and followed by a reflection. So it had a similar format. So that was another one that I used.

Meli  [00:25:48]:

Yeah. And I can really appreciate the value of having something that keeps you on track in some way. We do have busy lives and we are so easily distracted and we lose our way. Yeah. So in terms of creating this book, How did you organize the quotes?

Carlton [00:26:08]:

It was chronologically. So, the gospels in order are Matthew Mark, Luke, and John. So I started with the first I was looking for quotes that had some sort of resonance with me or I felt like I could reflect on in some sort of meaningful way. The first quote is at the beginning of the book of Matthew, which is the 1st gospel. In the last meditation is from the last quote that I take from the book of John at the end, so it goes through that sequentially. Now you can imagine with that sort of structure that it got to be sort of dicey at one point because as I was editing out and taking things out, I had to replace it with something that was still in the sequence, and I had to go back and carefully count out all of the, the days and make sure that they were coordinated. So that's that's how I organized it. So it's it's so if someone was reading, you know, through those gospels and start to finish, it would be very consistent with that. So in each one of those gospels, you know, we follow Jesus' life story in one way or another where they're starting from his childhood or from his ministry. that by the time you get to the end of each one of those, you're at the point that he's died and resurrected, and and his followers are going through all of those changes as well of of grasping with their their grief about that loss.

Meli  [00:27:28]:

One of the things that I find really interesting about talking with Christians and how they live their faith is how you read the gospel. Like just practically speaking over the year, or over years how you're interacting with it. And this remains a mystery to make. You know, I've gone to church services and, and I really wonder, how is it that, you know, this part of the Bible is chosen to be spoken about? In the Jewish tradition, we have the 5 books of Moses and the and the Haftara divided up for every week, and we just march through the book. one after another. So everybody, every Jew around the world is reading the same portion. It's called a parsha. This was part of why I was wondering about how you ordered your 365 quote. You've done it chronologically following Jesus's life. And then and then beyond as the as the mourners grieved his loss, their loss. I'm trying to understand how that meshes up with how a Christian attending a church would be hearing a sermon and having a Bible reading. Is would there be any connection at all?

Carlton [00:28:43]:

I would say the connection would be rather loose. of course, there is a Christian liturgical calendar that many traditions use that people follow and start off, you know, and so that every day of the or every week of the year, there's a different reading that people draw from. I think that especially by the time you get to, say, Pentecostal tradition and some of the more independent churches is less of an attachment to a sequence to a specific way of reading the gospels. Of course, you know, as you're coming up to say lent or advent. I think that there's more emphasis at those times of the year around particular readings that people do. coming up to Easter, for example, I know definitely inside of African American churches, there's a tradition of the 7 last words. of Jesus on the cross. You would get 7 preachers together, and each one of those preachers will do a short sermonette on one of those. But, in terms of my book and its correlation to any sort of, like, liturgical calendar. I would say that, that that is is not the case. It's really more designed around individual and personal study. I should say too that I had thought about doing it January 1, January 2, but then opted not to do that because people are gonna pick it up at any time and can start their own journey at any time from the point that they read when they pick up the book. So I prefer to go the root of all of the flexibility that's possible.

Meli  [00:30:12]:

I'd like to touch back just briefly on something else I picked up in your introduction, you talked about taking responsibility for your own spirituality, which I just thought was a really interesting comment. And you went on to say that you understand it's a it that it's a long process, and you're still in some ways in that process. Can you say a little more about that?

Carlton [00:30:36]:

Sure. So there came a point when I realized that I could not rely upon a religious leader or anyone else to tell me what was best for me in terms of my own spirituality and my own approach to religion. So rather than trying to hold myself up to some external standard that was outside of myself and someone else's Jesus that I needed to take on the responsibility for that myself and really listen to what my heart was telling me and what correlated to my spirit. So that is where that idea comes from. And I think that a that There are people who feel like they're being responsible by following, like, what the pastor says or what the bishop says. And I and that's fine for for people who choose to do it that way. And I've known enough pastors and ministers and people who are, you know, who are Christians and who identify as such to know that nobody's got it all figured out. You know, everybody's trying to to work it out on in their as as best they can. So that means that I've got to, you know, do what's in in my best interest and in the spirit of love and and generosity that I was speaking about before.

Meli  [00:32:00]:

So does that mean that someone using your book is following that example of taking responsibility for their spirituality. Is this also part of the hope of the book?

Carlton [00:32:12]:

Yes. definitely that for people who are I wanna say bound, who are bound, who are struggling with trying to reconcile their personal integrity, their own authenticity, with what someone else is telling them. They should be doing that with their life or how they should be living or what they what's right and what's wrong for them. The book, you know, really underscores that that the the possibility that people can actually go deep within themselves and come with an understanding that actually works with them and that they can be at peace with the God of their understanding if we were to go to, like, 12 step language.

Meli  [00:32:50]:

What's the response been? I mean, you sold out the books. Have you gotten any challenging responses.

Carlton [00:32:58]:

So far, no. The response has been overwhelmingly positive, though I would say I feel like the book is only at the front end of the reach that it has the potential to have. So I I can't imagine that as the book gets further out there and becomes more available to people more people are aware of it. I'm already anticipating that there will be some, you know, backlash or some negative response to it, and that's okay. I would expect that. I mean, especially, I I would say not of anybody who's following Jesus example, not everybody, you know, loved what Jesus had to say or how Jesus lived his life. and there were people who were very much opposed to it. So I think that would just be part of what would be expected, some negative response at some point.

Meli  [00:33:45]:

Yeah. See if it's one of the books that's banned.

Carlton [00:33:49]:

Alright. Which actually doesn't hurt sales.

Meli  [00:33:52]:

Are you doing readings in libraries and in schools?

Carlton [00:33:57]:

I've I haven't done any readings in libraries or schools. Well, I I did one at, a congregation in Portland, Oregon, the Unitarian Universalist congregation there. I've done a few, like, in online settings, but I haven't done any in libraries or schools to this point. and I've I've I've wondered if those settings would actually work being that it could be perceived as, like, a religious book. Right. Yeah. I mean, maybe, like, in a – 

Meli:

A parochial school, maybe. 

Carlton:

Yeah. Potentially. Yeah. If someone wanted to, I would I would definitely be open to that.

Meli  [00:34:32]:

I wanna shift back to your own experience. This whole book is about reading and thinking and reflecting on Jesus as an example for living. When you think about your life at this point, where do you apply Jesus's examples and teachings?

Carlton [00:34:52]:

One of the ways that I am applying Jesus's examples and teachings has to do with possessions because in many instances, Jesus is talking about take no thought for tomorrow. Look at the lilies of the field. They need their spin or toil. Let yet, you know, they are being provided for. So wouldn't your heavenly father provide for you in the same way? I I'm looking at possessions and what possessions mean to me and how it's possible that and I talk about this in the book as well in in a couple of different meditations, how our possessions end up owning us, and what does it mean to continually pare down and to let go of our attachment. And I think a lot of the scarcity that we see in the world and a lot of the care that's not happening for people who need it the most is because too many of us are hoarding resources and not being thoughtful about our connection to those things. So that's that's something that's very much on my mind is what my relationship is to the things that I quote, unquote own and wanting to keep that, like, at a minimum and and experience the freedom that comes from not having possessions. Some of the times I feel most free and most alive is when I'm on the road, And why is that? Because there's no house. There's no car. There's nothing to think about, but, like, whatever I have in my, you know, little suitcase in my backpack. So That's one of the things that I it's significant for me, especially.

Meli  [00:36:22]:

Yeah. Interesting. And yet at the same time, I noted your comment and, again, in the introduction about how you've taken care of your own financial security and you're not in a kind of a a scarcity, panicky mode about your life. You know, you took responsibility for your spirituality, and and you've taken responsibility for your financial stability. I see both of those aspects in your life, and and I I commend you. Frankly, I commend you for that girl. And I think It's an adult and and healthy way to go about your life, but it's just interesting. This contrast between Well, one might say minimalism or, you know, not becoming overburdened with possessions, but also being financially responsible and making sure that you're taking care of yourself?

Carlton [00:37:14]:

Yes. thank you for that, and thank you for the affirmation, Meli. I do acknowledge that even if we're looking at the life of Jesus, He was often staying at different people's houses and enjoying meals that other people prepared. Someone had something to work with. Someone's got to have something to work with just to be able to make it through this life. So there is a balance to strike. And that's one of the things that I say in the book is that it's incumbent upon each of us to figure out, like, what message is relevant from, you know, what Jesus taught in a given circumstance. And so I would not want to be so hung up on the idea of give everything away and sell it to the extent that I became a burden on somebody else or that I didn't have my needs met. So I think there's something to be set for being able to move back and forth and dance with that I imagine you have this experience within the Jewish tradition. If depending on, like, what you're reading, sometimes there are lessons and the teaching's gonna appear somewhat contradictory. But then you have to figure out for yourself, you know, well, what does this what is this saying to me and how is this relevant?

Meli  [00:38:19]:

Yeah. You're causing me station. But since you've brought it up, I'll just say one short thing that one of the strong messages in the Jewish tradition is about generosity and helping your neighbor. One of the things that I think is beautiful is that giving to dotcaa, which is charity is incumbent upon everybody, even the poor. If you receive charity, you are obligated to give To tithe, right, your 10% even of what you receive as charity to somebody else, which is a really powerful message. and that there are many ways to help other people that we can all help. And that that is the obligation then to tie it back to your book and your message of Jesus' love is that is showing care and love to be mindful of who in our community is in need, and what do they need? In those ways, our 2 traditions, the Christian and the Jewish tradition, they meet. And there's overlap there.

Carlton [00:39:35]:

Yes. Yes. For sure. And being able to as you're as you're saying, just acknowledge that we have this humanity in common and that we're called to be of service and support to one another. And I say that's another thing that I take very seriously in Jesus' example is just the persecution that comes with being someone who's committed to justice in the world. And there's just so much that is unfair and unequal, and there's gonna be a price to pay for those of us who are willing to take that stance and be those bearers of generosity and seekers of justice.

Meli  [00:40:14]:

Absolutely. And on that very note, we're coming to a to the end of our conversation here, Carlton. What is your message to those sexuality or gender identity or dealing with racism or what have you and are wanting to retain their Christian practice.

Carlton [00:40:42]:

I would say to them that they can have both of those. Then that's really my own personal story is being able to operate with the degree of integrity both inside of my understanding of Jesus and what what was important to Jesus. Jesus was not someone who emphasized, sexuality at all in doesn't say anything about homosexuality at all. Didn't even exist as a concept. So I would say look within, listen to the God within figure out what your integrity tells you about, how you can be the fullness of the person that you can be, and also, seek out and identify people who are also believing that that is possible. I spent, you know, some time in a setting that was not healthy for me because it was condemnatory because it wasn't a space where I could be myself where I could feel affirmed in whom I understood I was made to be. So I would say continue to seek out those things, but now there's just so many sources that are available online to help people do that as well. To those people, I would say no, that you're fully divine in addition to being fully human and, seek out the love and appreciation of other people and let love lead you is what I would say.

Meli  [00:42:02]:

Let love lead you. Those are words to live by. How can allies help?

Carlton [00:42:08]:

Allies can help by I would say first acknowledging their own propensity towards participating in oppression And I say this is someone who was male identified from birth, and there's just it's undeniable. There are privileges inside of a patriarchal sexist culture that accrue just by virtue of being born with certain appendages. So lean into the places where we have privilege, whatever those privileges might be, and to make a daily commitment to, undoing those privileges into redistributing the wealth and the generosity and the hope, to other people. and recognizing it's not like a one and done thing. I think that was, like, one of the challenges of the civil rights movement. I think people thought that you know, once we got the voting rights act passed, you know, that was the end of it. Well, guess what? It's not. It's never over. It's a lifelong commitment. and being able to, you know, live into that and take it as seriously as those of us who are marginalized do.

Meli  [00:43:16]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And daily practice like using your book is a beautiful way to do that to keep that present in your life and bit by bit. Even the longest road is done one step at a time, and it is a beautiful reminder. Wonderful. So do you have any closing comments?

Carlton [00:43:37]:

Just, to say thank you so much for this opportunity to reflect together. I, I I had a chance to listen to some of your podcasts before, and I really appreciate what you're doing in terms of bringing people together. for these conversations that, hopefully, will be illuminating and help people have a better understanding of themselves and to live lives that are the best possible ones that they can live in community and appreciation of one another. So thank you so much for that, Meli.

Meli  [00:44:10]:

Okay. Well, thank you so much Carlton. This has been a delightful conversation. 

Carlton: 

Thank you, Meli.

Meli:

Okay. Bye bye. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to get notified when new episodes are released, hit the subscribe button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be sent directly to info at talking with Godproject.org. A link is in the show note. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my talking with God project. For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options, go to my website. www.talkingwithGodproject.org. Thank you so much. till next time. Bye bye.