A New Public Muslim Face – Katrina Kincade

Episode 41.
An award-winning reporter at WBZ/CBS Boston, the first Muslim Miss Massachusetts (2022), volunteer for the Special Olympics, convert (or revert) to Islam from Catholicism and a Black American – Katrina holds a complex identity. She channels her complexity and desire to be authentic into her passion for community, diversity, and equality.  Impressively, she does so with grace, humor, and commitment. 

Highlights:
·       Her religious journey – Catholic childhood, atheism, then Islam.
·       Islam brought Katrina peace. 
·       Miss America Pageants – scholarship money, a platform for community service, and a sisterhood.
·       Volunteering at the Special Olympics and ‘Embracing Diversity’ platform as Miss Massachusetts.
·       Black Lives Matter protests prompted more interest in DEI training and employee diversity.
·       Katrina wears a hijab as a news reporter sometimes, and reports on underrepresented communities. 

Social Media links for Katrina:   
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/katrinakincade/
Instagram – @katrinakincade (https://instagram.com/katrinakincade) 
Twitter – @katrinaknews (https://twitter.com/katrinaknews?lang=en) 
TikTok – @katrinatheereporter (https://www.tiktok.com/@katrinatheereporter) 

Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271


Transcript:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/12998602-an-unapologetically-complex-identity-katrina-kincade


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The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. When you hear about how observant Christians, Jews and Muslims live their faith, new ideas and questions arise:  Is your way similar or different?  Is there an idea or practice that you want to explore?  Understanding how other people live opens your mind and heart to new people you meet. 

Comments?  Email  Méli – info@talkingwithgodproject.org

The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org/

Transcript

Katrina Kincade transcript

An Unapologetically Complex Identity

[Music]

INTRODUCTION:

Méli:  Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life – at work, at home, in the community, in good times and in bad.  There is no one-size-fits-all ‘right’ answer, just a way to move forward for you, for here, for now.  I am your host Méli Solomon.  So glad you could join us.  

[Music]

Méli:  This is episode forty-one and my guest today is Katrina Kincade. Katrina is Miss Massachusetts 2022 and an award-winning reporter at WBZ/CBS Boston with a passion for community, diversity, and equality stories. Katrina graduated from American University with a bachelor's degree in broadcast journalism and a minor in sociology. She’s won awards from the National Capitol Emmy’s and Massachusetts Broadcasters Association for her reporting. Upon winning Miss Massachusetts, Katrina became the first Muslim woman to win the title. Katrina uses her platform to educate people on the importance of diversity and inclusion in our multicultural society. In her free time, she volunteers at various organizations including the Special Olympics, which she has supported for the past 15 years. Katrina lives in the Boston area. Links to her social media handles are listed in the show notes. 

Méli:  Hello Katrina. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I'm so pleased to have you on today. 

Katrina:  Thanks for having me, I'm excited to be here.

IDENTITY & CONVERSION:

Méli:  I’d like to start with my usual first question. What is your religious and cultural identity? 

Katrina:  I am Muslim and culturally I am black or African American. 

Méli:  Were you raised as a Muslim? 

Katrina:  I was not. I was raised Catholic. 

Méli:  When did you convert to Islam and why was that? 

Katrina:  Yeah, it was around late 2019. Kind of going into 2020, I felt myself kind of exploring more. I was, I wasn't Catholic still, so it wasn't like I went from being Catholic to to Muslim. That switch didn't happen. I was kind of atheist, if you will, for a while. And then I had had a friend of mine who I was very close with and who was Muslim. We were kind of leading into the pandemic. You know, late 20/19. It was right after I graduated from college. I had a chaotic night out with my friend and I remember like just having to stir and wake up in the morning. And I looked over and I saw them on the floor praying. And I remember being like: ‘Am I watching something I'm not supposed to be watching?’ It's like, am I interrupting something? So I went back to sleep. Like, I I pretended. Then in the morning I was like, hey, I I saw you pray this morning. And they were like: ‘Yeah, you know, my morning prayer.’ And I was like: ‘How after a night like that, do you have the energy to wake up before, you know, the sun’s even up and pray?’ And they were like: ‘You know, it just kind of helps me feel balanced.’ And I was like: ‘Tell me more about that.’ Because I had just graduated college, moved to a new place away from home on my own, and it was a very tumultuous time in my life. And so they kind of taught me a little bit about why they love the religion, and I did a lot of research on my own. And of course, we hit a very tumultuous time in the world, the pandemic, along with all the Black Lives Matter movements. And I just kept finding myself drawn to it and drawn to something that brought me peace, like it did my friend. And I reverted, as we as we say. 

Méli:  So you were raised with some amount of Catholicism when you were younger and then kind of went away from it at some point? 

Katrina:  Yeah, I was raised with a lot of Catholicism. My mother is Catholic. I was confirmed, I had my first communion, the whole thing. But it was kind of a forced thing. Catholicism, very big in Boston area. My mom is Cape Verdean, it's very big amongst her family. When I was pretty young, probably around 8 years old, I started questioning things that I was learning and my mom's response was always: ‘Well, I was raised Catholic, so I'm raising you Catholic’ or: ‘Oh, well, I wanted you to get married in the church because I got married in the church and I got to say I've always wanted to be married on a beach. So the church, that didn't really draw me in. And there was just no one who could really answer, you know, a lot of my young mind questions and I was never really a a believer when I was that young and blind faith. And I think part of that comes from my mental health struggles from a young age. And so I grew up going to church on the major holidays, but I never really did feel like I was Catholic. 

Méli:  So you asked your mom questions. What about going to the priest? 

Katrina:  See, I would ask those questions too and that's where it would stop me, the blind faith. Like I'd be, you know, a curious 10-year-old being like: ‘OK, but how could Mary have had a baby without – and they're like, well that's, you know, Immaculate Conception. That's what happened. And I was like: ‘Scientifically my guy.’ And and it was things like that, you know, especially at a young age, if you're already not in it when your mind starts going and things aren't adding up for you. I I just believe it's very hard to get into it. And I just, I never really got into it. I think part of it was circumstantial. Part of it was just my mind and my personal beliefs. And part of it was I was like my mom was forcing you to do it, you know? 

Méli:  When you would speak with the priest with these questions, the priest’s response was that's the way Catholicism works. You believe. That's the story? 

Katrina:  Yeah. And and don't get me wrong, I had a great relationship and I've known the priest since I was a little kid, like all the way through my teenage years, and I would just always get responses of – that's what the Bible tells us, and that's the that's the story. And, you know – that's what we believe because she is the Virgin Mary. She was chosen. And I was like: ‘The math is not matching. 

Méli:  Does not compute. 

Katrina:  Does not compute in my brain like. So I think for a while even my dad, my dad's not Catholic, my dad was raised Pentecostal and even he is not incredibly religious. He just was like: ‘Alright, well, if your mother really wants to raise you Catholic, she can go for it’. So I think for a while I was just in the limbo of believing in God, believing in something higher. But not necessarily believing in the rights and the rituals of a certain religion. 

Méli:  And then when you drifted out of the church, did you retain your belief in God? 

Katrina:  I think I retained a belief in something higher. I think I I've always believed in whether that be the universe. Like I thinking in college, I would always very much be like, OK, the universe has my back, like it's okay, the universe won't let me down. And I think that I was more, not necessarily attributing that to God, so to speak, because I so forcefully had taken myself away from how I was raised. But I believed always that there was something bigger than me and and bigger than, you know, society guiding me and guiding a path for everyone. 

Méli:  Had you ever seen Jesus as your savior? 

Katrina:  No. 

Méli:  Right. So already a critical element of Christianity was not part of your sense of faith, right? 

Katrina:  When you say it that way, like, my mom never presented it to me that way. 

Méli:  Really! 

Katrina:  No, it was really, especially in at least my Cape Verdean family and how I was raised. Like Catholicism is also very cultural. And so we didn't necessarily get into the nuances of, like, if I asked my mom, she'd probably say yes, of course, but that wasn't something, you know, she very much was like, well, I'm leaving it up to the church to teach you these things. Which just makes sense, you know? She's just right, but I never really saw anyone as my savior. More, I think, looked to attain peace and attain community and and attain knowledge that something is looking out for me, more than that I'm saved by something. 

Méli:  I'm now wondering and listening to you, Katrina, whether this is partly a Protestant-Catholic difference. As I understand from other interviews with Catholics, the focus is less on Jesus and more on Mary for Catholics. And for Protestants, it's really about personal relationship with Jesus and seeing Christ as their Lord and Savior. So I'm wondering now if maybe that was an aspect. Did you get a sense of of a stress on Mary as the focus at church or from your mother or the larger family community? 

Katrina:  I would definitely say from my larger family, community and from church. You know, maybe that's where I got my little – ‘OK, but let's question the Mary thing. Let's let me ask you a little question about Mary’. So, like, definitely my mom. You know, my mom had a little manger and everything and Christmas was very I was like: ‘What about the baby?’ 

Méli:  FedEx brought it. 

Katrina:  It was like the stork was alive back then. 

Méli:  OK. OK, so then we move forward. You went to college, you got out and you had these Muslim friends, or at least one really good Muslim friend. Did you guys talk about faith? Because it sounds like this morning when you woke up and you saw them praying, by your telling, it sounds like it was kind of out of nowhere. But had there actually been conversation about their faith, what faith is and how it's active in your life before then? 

Katrina:  Yeah, OK, Yeah. Yeah. So we had chatted before, you know, I knew they were Muslim. It wasn't like I woke up one morning and was like, what are you doing on the floor? So I had known, you know, and they they had, you know, explained to me things that they grew up doing and what that looked like with their family because to me, you know, family and culture is very important. They had explained to me for a while, you know, why they were still Muslim and why they fasted, what days they went to the mosque and why, and their holidays. And I found it very intriguing. You know, I hadn't really learned a lot about it in school before. It's not like we talked about religion a lot, but knowing what I knew and then also just seeing how peacefully and how they went about their life was very admirable then that morning when I saw them. I really was like: ‘Wow, you lived this. You believe this in a way that is helping you. Clearly no matter what type of crazy night we have you can wake up and and still find peace and that comes within the culture and what you what you believe in the religion’. 

Méli:  I hear how impactful that was for you. So it was partly you're seeing them living their faith and partly the ideas, the the precepts, the values that they were describing as a part of Islam. 

Katrina:  Yeah, it was both. And I mean, obviously we didn't get into a lot of things, but I remember them telling me, you know, I was like: ‘OK, the praying five times a day is a little intense’. And I just remember them being like: ‘You have to give yourself grace’. They were like: ‘I don't feel like I'm punished or I'm sinning or I'm doing something bad if I can't get to it’. They're like: ‘It's just a, it's just a way for me to seek peace throughout my day. And I remember thinking when they said that to me and being like: I could definitely use some peace throughout my day. And now really, I honestly still keep that mentality when it comes to praying is that it's a way for me to seek peace and whether that be through talking with God, or whether that be just being in the moment of having an alone time to sit and know that there is some Being watching me and watching over me that brings me peace. 

SENSE OF GOD:

Méli:  So has your sense of God changed as you've moved through these different phases? 

Katrina:  I think it has. I think I've shifted a little more away from the Universe, that the stars are figuring things out for me. You know, I never rejected God, so to speak. I just was curious and I just was looking at how other things could impact life, I think because of the way I had. I've grown up seeing God. I think now I definitely believe. I believe that there is a God, but I definitely combine kind of that sense of the universe with kind of that God is the universe. But it sounds like since you were in that religiously homeless place, shall we say God has for you become a bit more concrete. Yes. Yeah. Like if I would say before I, there's literally a book I remember someone giving me that's the universe has your back. Because I remember I was talking to them about the universe and I would say, I would take that phrase now. And say God has my back, right. But I believe that the universe is God. So those kind of ideas that I had. Kind of just meshed itself with the more concrete thought that I now have that the universe does have my back, and that's also because the universe is God. 

Méli:  The universe is God, OK. Alright. Well, since that tumultuous phase, you are now working in your dream job as a news reporter for WBZ Boston and you are also Miss Massachusetts 2022, So congratulations on all that. 

Katrina:  Thank you. 

WEARING A HIJAB AT WORK:

Méli:  Since the focus of this Living Our Beliefs podcast is how people live their faith in daily life, that's really what I'd like to hear about from you. So let's start with the news and then let's talk about the pageant world that you're in. Right now, as we're on this Zoom call and when when I've seen photos of you, you have not been wearing a veil. You are not right now wearing a veil. But when I met you at the Cambridge Iftar, you did have a veil on your head. So it seems that you go back and forth. So that's a very visible way for Muslim women to pronounce their faith. And I I'd like to just hear more about how your faith is visible and and how you live it.

Katrina:  Yeah, so for me, with the hijab, since I've kind of reverted, I've gone back and forth. Especially during Ramadan, I will wear it more as that is the holy month. I find something very special and continuing in that piece of really giving myself, especially when I'm fasting, really giving myself fully to the religion and for me, that that looks like wearing my hijab more. As someone who's a revert, you know I'm still learning my place and what I want the religion to look like for me and how I present it so I don't wear it full time. Part of that is still navigating things around, like my job. And the fact that I didn't come on air originally wearing a hijab and So what that would look like if I were to ever transition to be a full-time hijabi, like so for me it's kind of a it's multifaceted but honestly I love wearing it when I'm in public and and people know and people see that. I I think there's beauty in being modest. And I love my hair. I'm learning to embrace different natural styles as a Black woman. But at the same time, I love different styles of the job and I love when people compliment it and being like, yeah, like this does look equally as beautiful as having my hair out in different ways and equally significant of you meeting me with my hijab on and seeing that I can be a news reporter, that I that I am a news reporter and that that's a positive thing. And I'm doing positive stories and combating sometimes what people have of stereotypes and what they believe, someone who wears a hijab might be or might look like. 

Méli:  A lot of complexity in that. 

Katrina:  There is, there is. There's less than ten women on TV, in TV news, specifically local TV news, who wear their jobs on air. I'm fortunate to know a couple of them. And I mean, it's not like that hasn't come from speaking with them without their own hardships and their own decisions that they had to make. But overall, I think in this industry where we are so publicly broadcasted, it's important to one show how multifaceted we can be as women and how diverse we can be as a religion. I think that's one of the most beautiful things. And that does mean showing all of the different sides of what Islam looks like. 

Méli:  I hear these various ways of presenting yourself. You're very newly converted or reverted, as you say. So I can really appreciate that you are in a process of of sorting and finding your way. 

Katrina:  I think that process is what makes us better people, right? Is being willing to not go full force in to something because I know that there are a lot of young Muslim girls who maybe haven't even reverted, who have grown up and who are still trying to figure out their identity and who some of them grow up wearing a hijab to school and then end up not wanting to wear it as adults. I enjoy the research and the nuances of the religion in that way and learning and being a part of that and being a part of that discovery of how each of us embrace religion and what that looks like on us. 

Méli:  Absolutely. And really I would say that the sorting, the learning, the reevaluating and shifting how one is expressing ones religion, this is a lifetime. 

Katrina:  Absolutely. 

Méli:  I think that's a good thing. 

Katrina:  Me too. I love that. 

Méli:  You've been in the news longer, so I'm guessing a rather more comfortable place, and the new religion is is coming into that. 

Katrina:  I mean, it was a big decision for me the first time I I wore my hijab on air. That would have been in 2020. It was Eid. And I remember being like: ‘I would, I wanna wear it today’, you know? And I was a morning reporter and I remember thinking I would wear if I wasn't in this job. There would be no hesitation to whether or not I would be wearing it. One of my missions, going into broadcast journalism and coming back home to Massachusetts to report, is I wanted to be as authentically myself. For people in my viewers as possible, I just remember thinking: ‘Alright, well even if this changes later down the road, as authentically as myself, right now is me wearing this job on air no matter what people might think’. And Western Mass has a very large Muslim community and I just remember thinking they've never had anyone out here. Who wore a hijab on air. They've – I'll do that because that's what I would authentically do had I not have this job. And I'll take the risk so that maybe there's a little girl or somebody watching the news who trusts us a little more to tell their story. More accurately, who wants to become a news reporter because they see, even if it's for the day, someone who looks like them, someone who has the same religion as them and that was kind of. It was scary, but I did it.

Méli:  And what happened? 

Katrina:  You know, the world didn't fall down. I still had my job. 

Méli:  Did you get any feedback, positive or negative? 

Katrina:  I actually got really positive feedback. I think I think we're more afraid a lot of times with the negative feedback for taking risks and what that would look like and I remember I did a story that day on how there was going to be an Eid celebration. And I had made friends with the mosque and the people there. And they told me that they were having this big – during the middle of COVID – this car celebration where they had figured out how to rent out a huge fairground. And I remember going and wearing my hijab there. So it's just me, the camera, you know, people who are seeing me being like: ‘Where's your cameraman? What is this?’ And a little girl who came up to me and basically first asked if I was just wearing it for fun, just to like blend in, you know, or if I or if I really was Muslim. And I remember being like: ‘No, I I am, you know, Eid Mubarak.’ I’m Muslim and she was like: ‘Wow.’ And you could just see, you know, the light in her face, you know, light up. She'd never seen a news reporter with a hijab on air. And understandably. I see it and I think that moment is kind of what has propelled me to unapologetically whenever I want to wear it. Whether it's a holiday or not, or just a day when I'm feeling like I want to, to do that unapologetically on air. 

Méli:  Yeah, but you've raised an interesting point. Sometimes when we're in situations and in someone else’s culture, we do make these accommodations. So I can appreciate how that little girl could have that question. You know, are you just doing this because you're here and you're being thoughtful, or or are you actually part of our community? 

Katrina:  Yeah, it was very, it was – I mean, it was a very inquisitive and good question for a girl of I think she had to be younger than maybe 11 years old. I was very proud of her question, you know, that she was so willing to just walk up to an adult like that, just challenge them, like that's awesome. She'd make a great news reporter. But for me, it was the importance of being at that event, too. There were interfaith events that I had seen the station had covered, but in terms of covering Eid, where over 1000 people from western Massachusetts, pre-pandemic, showed up in one place to pray and celebrate together. Like no one had covered that before. No one had reached out to that community. No one had even really known there were a bunch of people who didn't even know how to pronounce it. Part of my job, I felt was to bring out the community in a positive light is to make those connections so that they could tell their story and then, through the pandemic, highlighting them even more in the positive things the community was doing for other people as well.

Méli:  Yeah, absolutely. And given the level of Islamophobia in in this country it's so important to bring out the positive aspects of the community. 

Katrina:  Yeah, even on my own station the other day, it was Eid and we had never been into the mosque in Roxbury. So I tried to do the story last year, and then knowing that, they emailed me the next day being like: ‘Yeah, we were so busy with Eid, like no one was going to e-mail you back’. So this year I just showed up to the mosque with my cameraman because I had also one of my roles – and I say my beat is community and diversity – is, I very much make a point in this market to highlight and be connected with the communities that I grew up being around, that I grew up being part of myself and I knew that it was just a ‘show up and go’ kind of situation for the day. So I showed up with my photographer. I saw people that I’d known at the mosque who were involved with the council and things and the board of trustees and they let me in and they let my camera guy in and I I turned this package just for me on the simplicity of celebration and joy of of what he looks like. And I remember afterwards so many people at the station coming up to me saying: ‘I don't think we've ever been in there before. Like, thank you for for that was such a beautiful story’. And to me, I was like: ‘Oh, wow, you know, because for me, it's normal now for me, Eid and the mosque is like, yeah: ‘That's that's just the carpet. That’s the carpet that everybody prays on’. Yeah, but you know if you've never seen the inside, if you've never been allowed inside, there are even people who were saying to me while we were in there, like: ‘We don't usually do this, but we know you’. That's one of the reasons why I do what I do, why I present myself the way I present myself. 

Méli:  Yeah, and it it underscores the importance of being part of the community, in a job like yours, you know, a journalism, news, whatever. You know things, you know people, you have the connections. That's such an important voice, and it underscores the importance of having diversity on the team. Katrina:  Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. That's what I pitched myself for when I when I got this job, I was like, I'm from here. I'm a part of multiple underrepresented communities that we don't ever see on TV. And even my family is, you know, I was like, my brother is, is neurodiverse. We don't see a lot of stories about that. I was like, I can bring you all these stories, because I'm – that's one of my missions as a reporter. That's what I think our mission should be and that's why I got hired. So I guess if my pitch worked. 

Méli:  So have you been able to bring stories about the Black community, about neurodiverse folks? 

Katrina:  Oh yeah, I've been there for a little over a year now, and even today I was looking up local black-owned businesses and seeing what they're doing. I reached out to an author Duo, mom and son, who I met at Western Massachusetts, but they co-write a comic book that's called The Adventures of Southern Joshua – Joshua is the son. And it's kind of these books, these comic books that are written for a higher age level. You know they're comics but they educate on Autism and the adventures of Southern Joshua. And you know what his life looks like. And I loved meeting them. And I thought: ‘OK, it's one thing to talk about, you know, neurodiversity and autism. It's another thing to talk about, you know, her specialty, the mother is about Black and brown communities and neurodiversity. And so I've emailed them to bring them on the show that we have our 9:00 AM show that's happening. They're already coordinating that. So it's really been a joy of mine to get to connect all those communities that I love so much and that deserve positive airtime and have that happen here where I grew up, and it's a blessing for the audience. 

MISS MASSACHUSETTS:

Méli:  Another aspect of visibility for you is being Miss Massachusetts, so let's hear about that. When did you begin doing the pageant circuit? 

Katrina:  I started competing when I was, you know, year of high school. I had always watched Miss America. Growing up with my grandmother, I was always into a princessy, girly things. Miss America always had intrigued me. And I always was like, what if I could do that? They did two of those different ones as a teenager and then when I got to college, you know, I always wanted to do Miss America. That was always my my big thing. When I got to college, I saw flyer that was advertising for an orientation for the Miss District of Columbia organization and it said preliminary to Miss America, so I competed twice when I was in college, my freshman and my sophomore year. And then I took a few years off to kind of figure out, I don't know, money life where I was doing next. Even though I loved competing in the Miss DC organization. I think one of the greatest things that I wanted to do was represent my home state if I was ever to go to Miss America. And so I came back when I got my job here and I was like, I'm gonna start competing in the Miss Massachusetts organization. I wanna be Miss Massachusetts at Miss America. 

Méli:  Very cool. So you mentioned that this was the pageant that you wanted to participate in. Why do you want to be in this one? 

Katrina:  For me, a really big one was the scholarship money. The Miss America organization is one of the largest providers of scholarships to women in the country. I've won over $20,000 in my time competing to to pay off my student debt. So, you know, as a broke college student, that was definitely a big appeal to me. Also, I I loved the talent portion. We're one of the only ones that have talent as a scored portion of competition. And I remember again watching with my grandmother growing up and seeing all these were these women and these young ladies with these incredible talents and it was always like perform on the Miss America stage. I was like, whoa, whatever that means that sounds awesome. So that really drew me to it. And it was that I could see these intelligent, talented women because they would always say, you know, what school they were going to were graduating from and how much money they had won to help with school. And then they go and do The Nutcracker on point for 90 seconds and and then walk around in an evening gown. I was like, these women are so multifaceted, you know, and and that's what really brought me to it. And granted, when I started the Miss America organization, had swimsuit when I started in 2016, we still have the swimsuit competition. So I competed in that for two years and then when I came back to Massachusetts, they had gotten rid of it. So I was like even better. So kind of all of those those elements added up to for me to find, you know, place and I love the sisterhood and the community service aspect. They're very, very big on community service. We even call it a year of service when you have your title. And so kind of all those put together is what really drew me. To my love with the Miss America organization. 

Méli:  So I have to ask, what was your talent? 

Katrina:  I'm a singer. 

Méli:  What type of singing? 

Katrina:  I traditionally stick to jazz and blues for Miss America. I did sing a little more pop. I did a glitter in the air by pink. But I my roots for for performing is usually in the jazz and blues category and this community service. 

Méli:  Where have you been active? How has that shown up this year? 

Katrina:  Yeah, so I've been volunteering with Special Olympics for the past 15 years. So it kind of started off when I got involved in the organization. You pick a community service initiative, it's called or used to be called a platform, and it's basically a cause or an organization or a social platform that you would like to advocate for, for your for your year of service. And when I first started, I chose Special Olympics. That was my really big one because of the service that I had done for so for at that point, probably 13 years. And so what that looked like for me obviously was participating heavily. I was a coach in Western Massachusetts for almost three years in their Special Olympics team, so I got other people involved. I was recruiting other volunteers to make sure that our athletes were supported. I did a polar plunge at one point and ran into the Atlantic in March. My team in one week raised over $1000. and then we all stupidly ran into the ocean. This year as Miss Massachusetts and leading into it and given my experiences and news. And with my religion, I kind of wanted to broaden that scope from more than just Special Olympics and really. Embracing diversity. Representation matters. Embracing diversity is now the platform that I call it, and that kind of touches upon all aspects of what diversity looks like and what representation looks like in that It's religion, it's race, it's culture, it's neurodivergence and kind of advocating for the acceptance and the embracing of that in society. 

Méli:  What's the response been? 

DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION:

Katrina:  Well, I do think we're in a very good time in America where people are open to embracing diversity. We've seen a lot more DEI initiatives come from corporations, come from businesses in general, especially unfortunately after the Black Lives Matter movement, right, and I say unfortunately because it kind of took a second civil rights movement for people to be more open to discussing diversity and embracing what people from different backgrounds in life, how they move about this world. So I say unfortunately because it took that. But fortunately, because I have gotten a lot of positive response of people wanting to come to their schools and me reading a book to first graders about a little girl who wears her hijab to school for the first time or wanting to sit on panels and talk about what my career path has looked like in journey and what it's been like being, you know, the first Muslim Miss Massachusetts so I found a lot of people open to it and very positive, but you know, my heart obviously kind of aches a little bit on what you know when I'm coming off of the back of, and and what that means and what that looks like for us at one point in America. 

Méli:  Does that surprise you that it took violence mostly against black men by the police in order to prompt this this interest in diversity and having DEI trainings and workshops and and whatnot. Does that does that surprise you? 

Katrina:  No, which also is unfortunate, but no, it doesn't. I went to the METCO program here in Wellesley, so I grew up in Boston, but it was bused to Wellesley public schools through the METCO program. And so I was literally raised in a program that was made to help diversify and integrate majority white schools while giving children of color are better education. So growing up kind of in that environment. And no, it does not surprise me that it took violence and outrage for society to want to be or to be at least open to being understanding of others. 

Méli:  Yeah, it does seem to be an aspect of human nature that we get used to, a certain way that the world operates and it takes something strong. It is unfortunate that we need events to give us a kick and and open up and take a look at some new things. 

Katrina:  For what we say we do, it doesn't come off as just performative as I feel like it's kind of living what you talked about before and kind of being complacent, you know, is the word I would use with how we go about that also could look performative in the past and now I think the Black Lives Matter movement and other movements that we've seen throughout the past three years has made us force companies, our own companies where we work, even our own family members, to think about more than just performative justice and kind of performative quality and what that actually looks like in the workplace and in our society to get to something meaningful and more sustainable than. Of performative moment. That then passes and you go back to doing things the way you've been doing them. Yeah. I'd like to say I I don't want to just be a diversity hire. You know, I don't want the, I don't want to just be the ‘Look, we hired the black Muslim girl. 

Méli:  You're ticking three or four boxes like -

Katrina:  They're like, wow, add in the mental health struggle, we have scored it you know. Like, that's great, sure, but you know, I I say when I, when I've spoken before to corporations and to on panels about diversity in the workplace, about what does that look like that you were doing every day in your workplace or that is built into the structure of your workplace to support those people you are hiring, to support what they want to do in the work that you're already doing. So that it's not just you hired the person to fill a quota. 

Méli:  And what do you hear? 

Katrina:  At least at my company, right? That's what I can speak to. For me, that looks like giving me the space to tell the stories, right? To say, hey, we should go cover Eid and not ‘hey, we should’ but ‘hey, I'm covering Eid’. And being like, ‘OK’, you know, and and pitching these stories about diverse communities and them being open and giving me the space and the time to write and to edit them, that's what I've seen from my company. From what I've heard from when I do these panels is is kind of the same thing that I said where a lot of people are realizing. That maybe they were diversity hires. And now people who were managers at some panels looking at ways and asking me, you know, how can we make sure people don't feel that way? And so that's kind of the feedback that I've gotten is, is people, when you say it uncomfortably out loud that people are forced to think about what their structures look like in their own worlds, in their own organizations. 

Méli:  Sometimes it's a question of numbers, right? If it's just one or two in a company of 100, it's not very meaningful and you're not going to be, especially as a woman, I would say you're not going to be in a strong position to push for the things that are important. 

Katrina:  I I've heard that from my other, you know, diverse coworkers who've said, you know, ‘Oh my gosh, I wish you were there when I was in this meeting because you would understand what I said and was able to back me up. But I feel like because the room was majority white, what I said fell on deaf ears.’ And I, I mean, I still hear that, right. And and that's again, looking at how many people we have in the room. How many people we have in management levels in the room as well, because if all the people you're hiring are entry level, are not in those upper meetings and you only have one person, then yeah, that person is going to feel like, ‘OK, cool, I'm the diversity hire. What I'm saying isn't carrying the weight of my position’. Right?

Méli:  Absolutely. And all I can say. Is it does sometimes take time sometimes that, ‘Oh well it takes time to move people through the pipeline’, is a huge excuse to not move the diversity hires into higher management. That's that is absolutely true sometimes. But on a practical level, having run a company, having been a manager in various companies, I can say that hiring takes time and moving people up takes time, and getting the right people in the right jobs is not such a simple thing. So the mentoring can help their various things, but part of it is this helping people, the straight white men who are the majority of management still today, helping them to see people who don't look like them. 

Katrina:  Yeah and the and the value of people who don't look like them. I like to say to people when they ask me about why I like the beat that I cover, right and why I fight so hard for the voices that I want to uplift. As I say, if I can open one person's mind to something that they never thought about before, I've done my job. I'm not asking you to accept it or suddenly change your entire worldview. But if I can touch one person with my story and open up someone’s mind to a view or perspective, a culture that they've never seen before, I've done my job and there's nothing wrong with learning more. 

Méli:  And it's interesting to talk about this, partly because I'm seeing how similar our jobs are. You know, my research and this podcast is very much like what you do on the news, except that I get to make all the decisions, which makes it a lot easier. It also means that I have to do all the work but the diversity angle, talking to people who don't look like me, who don't. Share my religion who are walking very different lives. Is so important, and I so value these opportunities. I'm so glad we've met. 

Katrina:  Me too. 

CLOSING:

Méli:  And I'm so glad that you've been able to come on my Living Our Beliefs podcast. This is just been delightful. 

Katrina:  Thank you. This has been wonderful. I mean, I've lived it, right? Like on my social medias, you have ‘the first Muslim Miss Massachusetts’ and I I've loved getting to go in the community and and show that and I love that. You know, you have this platform where people can talk about what it's like to go throughout the world as they are and and then their religion and what that looks like. 

Méli:  Well, I wish you all the best and to carry on being authentic as yourself. I think it's just great.  

Katrina:  Thank you. 

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Méli:  Thank you for listening.  If you’d like to get notified when new episodes are released, hit the SUBSCRIBE button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be directly sent to info@talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options, go to my website – www.talkingwithgodproject.org.  Thank you so much.  Till next time.  Bye bye. 

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