A Muslim in Practical Theology – Saiyyidah Zaidi

Episode 31.
Saiyyidah brings her experience of Practical Theology to life in this engaging conversation. Landing in the field by accident, then choosing to remain, she views the staunchly white Christian British arena with an outsider’s eyes, while valuing the bridging of the Academy and religious leaders. Her perspective as a Muslim woman of color, prompted a deep exploration of her identity, for which she is grateful. Since completing her Doctorate in Practical Theology, Saiyyidah has combined that theory and use of conversation in her coaching and training on belonging. 

Highlights:
·       Conversations are available to everyone, and when we are confident in our identity and curious about the other, a deep and rich conversation is possible.
·       We can affect each other in a brief exchange, without knowing it, and it doesn’t cost us anything.  
·       Stephen Pattison’s term ‘wayfaring without a map’, describes a conversation as a journey.
·       Curiosity, acknowledgement and respect can be learned, but we need to work hard, be vulnerable, and be ready to shed some ideas. 

 
Quotes:
“Acknowledging and recognizing difference is important, but when we focus too much energy, time, attention on the difference, we forget our similarities.”

“Some people haven't outed themselves as non-Christian, but because I am so obviously not Christian and remain in that space [of Practical Theology], that gives them confidence and permission to do so as well.”

“What I'm trying to do, ... is keep one foot in research and one foot in practice, because I think that will make my approach in both areas a little bit more rounded.”

Social Media links for Saiyyidah:
LinkedIn ­– https://www.linkedin.com/in/saiyyidah/
Twitter – https://twitter.com/SaiyyidahZaidi
Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/saiyyidahzaidi/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/saiyyidahzaidi and https://www.facebook.com/saiyyidahzaidipage
Website: www.saiyyidah.com
Center for Belonging and Understanding – www.centreforbelongingandunderstanding.com
 
Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project –  https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/

Transcript:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1851013/episodes/12117876-31-saiyyidah-zaidi-a-journey-in-practical-theology/edit

Follow the podcast!
The Living Our Beliefs podcast offers a place to learn about other religions and faith practices. When you hear about how observant Christians, Jews and Muslims live their faith, new ideas and questions arise:  Is your way similar or different?  Is there an idea or practice that you want to explore?  Understanding how other people live opens your mind and heart to new people you meet. 

Comments?  Questions?  Email  Méli -
         info@talkingwithgodproject.org

The Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of the Talking with God Project.

Transcript

Saiyyidah Zaidi transcript

A Journey in Practical Theology

[Music]

INTRODUCTION:

Méli:  Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life – at work, at home, in the community, in good times and in bad.  There is no one-size-fits-all ‘right’ answer, just a way to move forward for you, for here, for now.  I am your host Méli Solomon.  So glad you could join us.  

[Music]

Méli:  This is episode thirty-one and my guest today is Dr Saiyyidah Zaidi. Saiyyidah is a leadership coach and Muslim in practical theology based in Britain. Originally trained as an architect, she spent 10 years in local government. She left her director role to retrain as a business coach and has acquired many qualifications. Additionally, she is the first Muslim in Britain to obtain a doctorate in practical theology. Saiyyidah researches, coaches, and trains in belonging, understanding, identity, leadership and difference with the aim of enabling individuals, teams, and systems to get to know each other better. She lives in London with her family. A link to Saiyyidah’s social media handles are listed in the show notes. 

Méli:  Hello Saiyyidah. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I'm really pleased to have you on today. 

Saiyyidah: Thank you so much, Méli. It's such an honor to be here. 

Méli:  It's an honor for me as well. I'd like to begin with my usual first question. What is your religious and cultural identity? 

Saiyyidah:  Gosh, you’d think there'll be straightforward answer and there is and there isn’t some ways. My religious identity I think is quite clear in that I am a Muslim. I was born into Islam. But I'm also kind of clear that is the faith that I want to follow in practice. Culturally, I think it's a bit more complex. I'm born and raised in the UK, travelled for a few years and live in London. And so why am I saying all of these things? Gosh, I don't want it to sound trite, but I'd like to think of myself as a citizen of the world and whilst I have habits and kind of mannerisms and things that are clearly very British, others that are Muslim, some that are a mix of the two. There's also some things that I do which are out of context given that I live in the UK and might be American or European or from the Middle East. So. Yeah, it's It's funny that it's taking me a little bit longer to answer that question than I'd like it to. 

Méli:  That's quite alright. I think citizen of the world is a quite a good description for you and and I I appreciate that. The fact is, is that we're all made-up of multiple aspects of identity and this is why I asked the question at the at the start, because the audience doesn't know you. I barely know you. I don't want to put people in a box. Some people react to that question of: ‘Oh no, no, no. I don't want to use that label because on I'm in the box and I'm uncomfortable with that’. I understand that. I respect that. But the fact is is that the labels serve as a shortcut to understanding something about you. And that's all it is. It's not a finished deal. OK, now that we've gotten that complicated question sorted. You have recently completed your doctorate, so congratulations on that. 

Saiyyidah:  Thank you. 

Méli:  I understand that it was from the University of Glasgow. Your thesis was was called ‘This is the Sound of My Soul Seeking Inclusion and Belonging’. Could you say a little more about what that means? 

Saiyyidah:  Yeah. Thank you. So I did my doctorate in Practical Theology and I kind of landed there a little bit by accident, if I'm honest. My original intention was to explore and research Islam and Positive Psychology and really look at human flourishing from an Islamic perspective. Why? Because I did a Masters in Applied Positive Psychology and I just thought that there's so much, so much potential intersection that we can learn and develop from these two areas. When I landed in Practical Theology I was the first Muslim in the field, I think maybe even the first Muslim. And in Britain, Practical Theology is a very Christian subject, both in the Academy but also professionally. And so what I then realized is that I'd have to navigate my own journey within that. And so what does it mean to be the only Muslim in a Christian field? What does it then mean to also be one of a handful of non-white people in a very white, male, middle class, Anglican field? And it really ended up being the development and understanding of who I am and what is Practical Theology and exploring the different spaces and the cultures and unpacking my own identity in order for me to then be able to work out where I sit, not just within Practical Theology, but also, in the UK and then maybe even in the world as a whole. And so I did it as an auto-ethnographic study and used a methodology called Critical Intersubjectivity and also used conversation. And I think what's really fascinating about where I am now, a year on from having submitted the the thesis and passed my Viva and things, is just how powerful conversation is when we use it with the aim of getting to know each other better, because I think that's the piece that really helped me to then understand myself and actually to understand others, but then also for that reciprocal thing to take place where we could kind of have conversations about what actually happens on in a Sunday service for example, what happens in the mosque on a Friday, etcetera, etcetera. And I think as a result of that people who've been open and willing to engage with me, I think their experience of their own communities has become richer as they understand a little bit more about Islam.

Méli:  Amen to that. I'm struck by how similar our paths of inquiry are. I have not myself used the term Practical Theology. I didn't even know it existed until I found the podcast you had been doing ‘Conversations in Practical Theology’. Such fascinating work. I encourage the audience to check that out. But when I hear your description, it's a very clear echo of my inquiry, so this is really fascinating. You've made such an important point just now of this dance, really the necessary dance between self-identity and connection to the group. There is a theory about identity, that we are identified by the other, that we are who we are in relationship or in contrast to the other. So I as a Jewish woman, you as Muslim woman. Our religious difference. Our racial difference. I'm American. You're British. These are all differences between us. The difference, though, in hearing a recent podcast, you did about the dangers of difference, stressing the difference, and I'd like to hear a little more about your thoughts on that. 

Saiyyidah:  So acknowledging and recognizing difference is important, but when we focus too much energy, time, attention on the difference, we forget our similarities. And I believe that – and this is shown in the research that I've done, but also in my own personal anecdotal experience – that when you focus on what is similar about you and another or you and a group, then actually that point of connection kind of opens up a crack into how you can really deeply, richly get to know one another. The difference is always going to be there. It's not about changing that. I think it's about respecting that and acknowledging it. And then saying: ‘So what is it that makes us the same?’ Having an awareness and understanding of both of those enables us to act in relation with each other at a much, much deeper level because for me one of the most important things that that you've said here in this segment is that piece about our relationality. And I think from that comes from our humanity, because at the end of the day, the vessel that we're in may be different and the way that we think and we approach life and our practices may be different, but our high-level ambition is going to be similar or will find strands that we can relate to each other with. And so having an awareness of that I think just makes the whole lived experience just so much easier because then one can recognise how can I support you Méli and how can you support me, and how can we then make life a little bit easier and more enjoyable and pleasant for each other? 

Méli:  Yeah, absolutely. It is feeling like there's a balance to be had. And the extremes are: Absolute stress on difference, and the other extreme is absolute stress on the similarities. Is that, do you see it that way? Is that reasonable? 

Saiyyidah:  Yeah, I I think so. I mean I think there's, there is clearly a spectrum and somewhere in the middle is that place where we can belong and we can kind of have quite deep interactions with each other and what does that mean? That may mean that I might only have a conversation with somebody for five minutes. But if I've connected with them deeply, that discussion could change their life or mine. And if we never meet each other again, then that's fine because it's kind of that positive energy has gone off into the ether. And I think that's something that God recognizes and has contributed to that interaction that's taken place and we need more of those good things rather than just seeing somebody or hearing something somebody said and taking it out of context. So this piece about just allowing people to say things and just exploring it and being curious about: Well, what did they really mean? It removes a lot of tension that exists in the world and it's a very difficult place to live the world right now. And why? Because we're not hearing each other anymore. 

Méli:  Couldn't agree more. I do find that finding this middle ground, as you say. It's quite a challenge and here are the risks that I see on either end. The risk of stressing difference is that we treat each other as foreigners and the desire, the curiosity, to bridge that gap is lost, or worse than that, they are the enemy and as something to be feared or hated. And on the other end. A lot of stress on the similarities. It's interesting you talk about it as a way to a deeper conversation. But sometimes the stress, say in interfaith dialogue, for instance, the stress on the similarities really water down the conversation. I guess the question that comes out of that for me is: How do we encourage the curiosity about the difference, and balance that with starting off with the similarities? 

Saiyyidah:  And I think you make a really, really important point. For me, when you focus too much on the similarities, you end up with groupthink and when you focus too much on the difference, you end up in a place where there's an no engagement between each other. And so how do you kind of respond? I think the first thing really is to understand who you are. And so my biggest journey in my research has been doing the reflexive practice and really kind of working out what is my own identity. So if we go back to the, the first question that you asked, you know, listeners may be thinking: Well, that's such an easy question and it is, but you could also spend a whole lifetime exploring it and unpacking it. And when you do that and you understand yourself, then I think it really becomes easier to be able to understand others, and it kind of cultivates that sense of belonging in you. And then you can help others to have sense of belonging in themselves through the way that one approaches the conversation. Now at the same time, there are other people that I would absolutely love to engage with, but they're already. So there's also something about the kind of time and the place and the preparation work that we do as individuals and maybe even as a group coming together to have that quality of conversation that we seek and we hope for. And so what does that then mean in some interfaith work. I personally find a lot of the interfaith work that gets done and it's it's fantastic and it's brilliant, but it's not for me. And what do I mean by that? I really want to engage with people at an individual level very, very deeply and richly, and then be able to explore how we might work together on projects or kind of creating impact in a different way. In some of the interfaith work that I've seen, you have the Christians in one group and you have the Muslims and another and the Jews and another group and other faiths and and people with no faith as well. And it just, it's like, it just makes the whole thing quite complex and different because even within the groups it's complex and different. So we're speaking and I do not make any claim in any way that I represent the body of Muslims that exist in the world today. But when other people see me, somewhere within them there is that expectation, until we've had this conversation or they're very, very self aware. So how do we then also bring all of that in into the system that's at play, that we're trying to then have these very complex conversations? And if the aim of the interfaith work, for example, is for us to get to know each other better, that's one thing. But what's the aim of some of these conversations? So, when I look at using conversation as a methodology, it's not simply speaking to each other, because that's fantastic and brilliant as well, but also what's the purpose? And I'm not saying that we always need to have a purpose for a conversation, but in some environments and arenas one does. And I think it's just drawing attention and bringing that into it. And so when you do that, then it creates more of a a kind of goal or an ambition that can then become mutual. And when that happens, I think there's much more balance in the conversation and it becomes more reciprocal rather than becoming one way and remove some of the power that is associated within conversation. So for example, if we look at what you said to me and when you reached out it was about the conversations in Practical Theology podcast that I do with Doctor Eric Stoddard at Saint Andrews University. And in the first episode I think we speak about how this is such a strange thing because he's, you know, a very well-known and highly experienced, very respectable, practical theologian. And then there was me, just a new student that's come into this. And he's Christian and I'm Muslim and male and female and so many other layers and dynamics to it, but we just went on an exploration together. And I think that's the thing that made it interesting. 

Méli:  So exploration is so important because this is how we understand ourselves and how we understand the other, how we understand the world. Do you think that curiosity and acknowledgement and respect can be learned? 

Saiyyidah:  I do. Why do I say that? And this is a fantastic question. I think that they can be learned. What's the ingredients to that? So what opens the door to enable the curiosity and their respect? I think it's knowing that it's gonna be hard work, being vulnerable and being willing to maybe shed things. So for example, if I look at myself in my 20s, I just didn't have the level of understanding and maturity that I have now. Would I even want to speak to myself in my 20s? You know, yes, on some days, but no one others because there was just so much drive and ambition and I was focused on different things. Whereas the person that I am today is incredibly curious and actually my curiosity and my desire to be respectful and learn from others sometimes gets in the way of me actually being really productive because I just kind of like go down a a rabbit hole. However, the learning that comes from that is just really incredible. And so it can be learned, it can be honed, but you've got to be willing to do the work. And I think there, there is actually an invitation out there for everybody to explore this and and I look at some children are incredibly curious. And I think it's the system that kind of like pushes the curiosity down and says, no, you can't be like that, don't do this, you know? And I can give you just a simple example. When my children were young and they went to nursery. In London, some of the nurseries are incredibly diverse and very mixed. As babies they had lots of friends with people from various different backgrounds and things. And a couple of years later I noticed that a couple of the kids had just stopped being their friends and I was curious about why. I don't know the answer, but one of the nursery workers said to me that the parents had said to kind of not engage with all of the children. And I think that's fascinating. So these are messages that the kids are receiving from the adults that are around them. And then it becomes learned behavior. So the curiosity gets replaced by learned behavior. I’d never thought about this before, so thank you for helping me to understand that, because then that means learned behavior I think can be changed. 

Méli:  In your description of your children in nursery school, I heard a very similar thing from a woman I interviewed for my research. She's Muslim, of Pakistani background, but her mother is from South America. When she was growing up there was a big mix of kids. And she heard that other children were being told not to play with her because she wasn't purely Pakistani. 

Saiyyidah:  Umm

Méli:  They were all Muslim but they had different origin stories. So that that's one memory that that pops up. OK, so we think these things can be learned, but I think also there are natural qualities that each one of us has that we didn't learn. They're just part of us and some of us are just born curious and some are not, so I think that's also an element. 

Saiyyidah:  Yeah, it's interesting because I think my curiosity has always been there in the background, but I've really learned to emphasize it more and allow myself to kind of be more curious deliberately. Whereas previously I think I was happy for it just to kind of like sit in the background and not maybe have as much attention as it does now. So, I I agree with you. I suppose the other thing that's coming to me is that we all have an innate desire to be relational. The question is who with? 

Méli:  Who with and how much, right? So, so a related aspect to this. This is clearly a gigantic spider web work where weaving is. Extrovert, introvert, recluse. So I think these different modalities of being are quite central to our personalities. Maybe they change, but that's an added aspect that I think we need to acknowledge. 

Saiyyidah:  I'm trained in Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and one of the kind of dichotomies there is the extrovert/introvert thing and and and I have the firm belief that that we have extroversion, introversion within us. Speaking of my own experience, when I was younger, I perhaps expressed more extroverted behaviors. In the last 15 years or so, I've realized that I am naturally introverted and I'm very comfortable being on a stage and speaking and doing things that that society may consider to be extroverted. But my natural kind of space that I'm, that I think that I'm happiest in, etcetera, etcetera, is probably when I'm introverted and by myself. Now, what does that mean for this relational aspect? If I may just share a quick story of something that actually happened to me yesterday. So I was attending a course and had to leave earlier than normal and walked from a different station. And as I got off the bus it was fascinating cause central London 8:00 o'clock in the morning, not a person, not a person, not a vehicle. And it was like the whole place was quiet for me, just to be able to reflect and think. And as I was walking I felt quite comfortable, but also a little bit unsure because there is still crime and things. And then I saw somebody and it was fascinating my response because I saw that other person and I felt so relieved that there was somebody else in that environment. 

Méli:  Wonderful story. Did you have a desire to say something, say hello, make some kind of a gesture? 

Saiyyidah:  If they were closer to me, I would have done, but they were on the other side of the road. And it's funny because as I shared the story yesterday, I said that person has no idea who I am, but they had such a huge impact on me. And maybe there's something in there as well, just about as we kind of interact and go around our day-to-day lives, the people who do have huge impact on us but don't know about it. Something really powerful in that, I think. 

Méli:  Yeah, another interesting aspect is the acknowledgement is the awareness on both on the other side necessary for us. And your argument is no, and I'm inclined to agree. I'm going to have to think about that a little more. I've never considered that, but actually it's even very quickly I I have the the memory of being told by a synagogue member that I had had a huge impact on them that I was completely unaware of hadn't even remembered. But they said it was a big impact because when I first came to a service, you were the first person to say hello and you were friendly. 

Saiyyidah:  Wow. 

Méli:  And that's why I joined. That is why I'm here. 

Saiyyidah:  And I think in those few sentences you said something really, really powerful because our impact can be so positive and it doesn't actually cost us anything. We're just being who we are. But at the same time, it can – not necessarily be negative – but we lose out on the potential that is available to us when we stop being ourselves. 

Méli:  Could you say a little more about that? I'm not quite sure I'm tracking you on that second part. 

Saiyyidah:  You were friendly. You said something you didn't have to. So for example, in my community that there are some people that are friendly, there are some people who are not. And what's the impact? You know, if if you go into a mosque or any space, someone says hello, gives you tiny little bit of attention. What are you doing in that? You're making the other person feel very welcome and given what you said, Méli, that you were the first person that did that for this other person that came to the service. They felt something. They felt more at home. They felt like they belonged as a result of your tiny interaction that may have even felt incidental to you. 

Méli:  I think the core of it is being seen, seeing others and being seen, and that's the critical element. 

Saiyyidah:  hmm. 

Méli:  I would add that I think it's the critical element when it's positive, and you mentioned you, you know the negative is a negative encounter also being seen. If there's road rage or someone is nasty to you. 

Saiyyidah:  hmm. 

Méli:  Or God forbid, you're nasty to someone else. Is that also an expression of seeing and being seen? 

Saiyyidah:  I'm not sure about that one. So here I am presenting myself as somebody that is fairly measured and balanced and all of that. But I still have my moments and that's what it is to be human. So in a situation like that, it's difficult to know what has led that person to be so angry, for example, or to be so expressive of what one might consider to be negative emotions. As you were speaking there was a couple of examples that came to me. So many years ago I went into a mosque once and the clothing that I was wearing was quite colourful and a couple of people commented on it and as they commented, I thought: I am never gonna come here again. Right? Different mosque, different experience. In fact, this just happened on Friday. I went to something with my son and everyone came up to me and shook my hands and said hello and I was, gosh, this is a friendly place. My sister came in afterwards and I was just speaking to her and said, you know, this is really nice. And she said: ‘I thought you knew everybody’. And I didn't know any of them. They made me feel so welcome just through acknowledging me. So I was acknowledged in both experiences, but the first time made me feel so small and so, I don't know, like I made a mistake that I never wanted to go back and the other. And made me feel so welcome that I would go out of my way to go there. 

Méli:  Fantastic examples. In the first example where you went to the mosque in colorful clothing. I'm gathering that the comments that you received sounded critical, like: ‘Oh, you shouldn't be wearing colorful clothing’. 

Saiyyidah:  Yeah. 

Méli:  Do you think they meant it that way? 

Saiyyidah:  Well, that's an interesting question. And I and I did look at the others they were there in the room and they were all kind of wearing kind of quite neutral tones. And and I was the only one wearing colorful clothing. So I did stick out like a sore thumb. I obviously didn't read the memo. You know, but it is what it is. And I just think there's something about when one walks into a religious space or a community, how welcome are we being made to feel? And I think that comes to the core of the question of my thesis research and even of my experience when I walk into different Practical Theology spaces – when I'm made to feel welcome, even when they make mistakes. Yeah, it's fine because the intent is pure and it's positive. But if I'm not made to feel welcome, even if they're trying to do the right thing, it just comes across as being, I don't know a bit disrespectful. 

Méli:  Let's address that community a bit more. I really find it fascinating that – OK, so you did it by accident, but you as a Muslim ended up occupying and studying in this field of Practical Theology that is very Christian and you stayed. Right? You could have left. You could have realized: ‘Oh my God, this is really a Christian space. It's a very white, it's very male. I don't fit in. I'm not comfortable. I'm leaving. I'm going to go find perhaps a Muslim focus’. What was it that caused you to stay and do you find that there is a Muslim correlate to this study?

Saiyyidah:  Great questions. And so I did have a love hate relationship with it, is the way that I describe it, and I kind of still do. But I say that with some irony now because I sit on the committee and I'm a trustee of the British and Irish Association for Practical Theology and I'm the first Muslim to do so. And so the question then is why do I stay? Actually, before I answer that, many times I've wanted to leave, but I haven't. And I think there's something about – and forgive me if this is just a bit maybe too esoteric, but – God wants me to be here. God wants me to stay in that space. And I don't always know why, but I know that my presence means that there's a broader understanding of the religious communities within the UK and so being in Practical Theology and certainly having attended various conferences is fascinating, because the people who are not within the demographic of the the majority – many times people have said to me that they feel more confident in staying within the community because they see me. And some people haven't outed themselves as non-Christian, but because I am so obviously not Christian and remain in that space, that gives them confidence and permission to do so as well. And so when someone says that to me, it makes me want to stay even more, you know, because I'm not just representing me, and, and interestingly, I'm not representing Muslims. I'm representing this whole body of people that exist within Practical Theology that are just not the kind of general person that one might think exists within British Practical Theology. So to answer the other question of is there a similar community for Muslims, if you ask me last year, I would have said no. But in September 2022 I attended a British Muslim conference at the University of Cardiff and it was celebrating 50 years of British Muslim study within the UK. And it was two days, and within the first 10 minutes of listening to the, the material and the kind of aim and the ambition of the of the event, I realized that what they were doing was Practical Theology. Now, why am I hesitant to call it Muslim Practical Theology? Because I think at the core of practical theology in and of itself is the idea that we're not researching the theory of religion. But we're researching the practice and the practice differs depending on who it is that's doing the research and the ambition and the aim of what they're doing. And so whilst I'm saying that that Practical Theology within Britain is Christian, it's primarily Christian because of the body of people and the community that exists. Do I think that there is a need for a Muslim practical theology or a Jewish Practical Theology, or Practical Theology for people of no faith, etcetera, etcetera? I'm not quite sure and what I would wish to avoid is a dilution of the rich potential that we have by coming together as a community of people interested in exploring what it is to practice faith. 

Méli:  Maybe it's really about expanding the field of Practical Theology and acknowledging the various lenses through which people are seeing that area of study. 

Saiyyidah:  Very, very well put I think, and if we can do that by giving space to a wider range of voices then it makes religious practice more important and more relevant to some of what's happening within society, because at the moment it feels as if it's kind of being put to the side. But that exploration of coming together with the aim. You know, I think all of us really want to make the world a better place and to do it from our own different kind of spiritual perspectives. If we can do that together, then there's some really good stuff. And we are then also representing wider society within a practical theological space. Britain is no longer a Christian country. Why do I say that? Because if you look at the results of the census that came out even very recently, it's statistically it's not a Christian country anymore. And so really we need to explore what that then means from the faith perspective. 

Méli:  I understand that practical theology is deeply embedded in the academic world and in the congregational world. Is that correct? 

Saiyyidah:  And the Academy? Yeah. And so if we look at the association or the British and Irish Association for Practical Theology. It's both for professionals and also for academics. I I try not to get too caught up in myself. I know that there is a little bit of tension, I think, between the academics and the professionals. Many people will disagree with me, but I'm only providing my perspective. And I think actually there's something really important about doing the research in Practical Theology, but also listening to the voices of the laypeople and the practitioners and kind of not going too off in heads in the clouds of academic research because it's helpful and it's very useful, but we still need to listen to the people that are walking through the doors of religious places, and also not walking through the doors of them and why. So what I'm trying to do, and sometimes struggling to do, is keep one foot in research and one foot in practice, because I think that will make my approach in both areas a little bit more rounded, and a lot of practical theologians do do that. 

Méli:  Right. Well, I certainly connect with that view. What is the intention of your studies and practical theology and what do you see as the intentions of Practical Theology? It sounds to me looking at your LinkedIn profile and etcetera, is that you've taken this, your dissertation and all of your studies, combined it with your studies and coaching and your work there and fed that into this focus on conversations and belonging. Is that accurate? 

Saiyyidah:  Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I think the reason why I'm really super interested in conversation is because, yes, you know, the coaching conversation is something that's very special and and curated and quite unique and conversation is available to everyone. It's a tool that we all use, you know. It doesn't matter what your situation is, whether you're working or studying or how old you are. Conversation is available to everyone, you know. And for me, that's really, really powerful. And here's the really interesting thing. We don't even need to understand each other's languages because we can communicate with each other through gestures or there's other ways that we can, kind of, come together and understand each other and have really strong positive impact. That piece on belonging is really quite significant because I realized that when I start to belong in my own skin or the vessel that God has given to me, then I understand more about myself, and as a result of that, I can help other people to belong and to understand themselves and become much clearer about their own identity. And for me, there's something in here about being leaders. And so there's a prophetic saying in Islam that every one of you is a leader. So how are we leaning into that and being leaders of ourselves so that we can then help other people in the leadership roles that they have, whatever it is that they're doing. Coming back to the other thing that we were talking about earlier in terms of the piece on difference and similarities and bringing that into it as well. So it sounds awfully complex and on one level that is. But at the same time it's also just so simple. 

Méli:  Yeah. And I appreciate this note about the accessibility and availability of conversations to everyone. I really liked something that Pattison wrote in that article. 

Saiyyidah:  Conversations in Practical Theology.

Méli:  There you go. Thank you so much. In there, he says that it's wayfaring without a map. 

Saiyyidah:  Yeah. 

Méli:  That is so beautiful. 

Saiyyidah:  Yeah. 

Méli:  And I think it's really important. I've spent a lot of my professional life in the business world and also with coaching, and there's a lot of emphasis in these spheres on the end goal. Where are you trying to go? And this idea of a conversation as wayfaring without a map completely changes that approach to saying: ‘OK, we are going to start at point X and we'll find out where we go’. I suppose one could say it's process versus end. 

Saiyyidah:  Yeah, it's the journey really, isn't it? And and it's interesting because I I love that phrase and there's there's so many – I mean every line of that article is just genius. But as you read it out loud, the thing that's coming to me is that it is wayfaring without the map. We have to do the work to understand our own map and then we can take it and put it aside, because we've kind of got that memory of our landscape and then we can wayfare and try and explore somebody else's map or where they are in meet them in places and maybe kind of try and navigate together in a place which is completely unknown to us because it's new. Just like this conversation. 

Méli:  Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things I think you said this earlier, and I've I've certainly heard it in other contexts, is that we need to begin with a firm sense of ourselves in order to have that conversation, in order to do the wayfaring with the other or even just alone with ourselves? 

Saiyyidah:  Absolutely. 

Méli:  To explore ideas, to explore places, approaches, etcetera. If we are confused about who we are, then that's that's a different kind of inquiry but the richness of the conversation is derived from two people starting with a firm sense of who they are and what their tradition or beliefs are plus, being open and curious it it needs to be both, because if it's I'm firmly X, and it's the only way to be. Well, there's no conversation to be had. I think that's a complete non-starter. 

Saiyyidah:  I completely agree with you. I really do. And I think it's knowing who you are doesn't mean that all the work is done, you know? So, for example, I'm very clearly a work in progress. I know myself an enormous amount better today than I did a few years ago, perhaps even since a few days ago. But I'm constantly learning and that's where I think this curiosity comes in. So having a foundation or a baseline of who you are – and that's where some of those important pieces come in. So, for example, I'm very clearly a Muslim. I'm confident and comfortable in my faith. And many of the people that I interact with are not. And that's all fine. You know, if you're confident and comfortable in who you are, then we can have a higher level of conversation because I don't feel threatened by you and you don't feel threatened by me. And that just makes everything just so much of a much richer and curious exploration and we're creating something really special together, but we're also learning about who we are as individuals separately. And then our understanding of who we are is just expanding. 

Méli:  Yep. It's quite like living abroad. I lived in Germany for 8 1/2 years and. It was an extended experience of what I have found with other international travel where my American-ness. Is in high relief when I'm somewhere else. It is again, I am in relationship in contrast to the other in. In that case it was American to German. 

Saiyyidah:  And a funny thing on that for me is that when we lived abroad, you know, I was very clearly British. But when I'm here it's it's a real challenge for some people to acknowledge me as being British. 

Méli:  Because you're a Muslim. Is that it? Or –

Saiyyidah:  Yeah, because I don't look like I'm British. Because my skin color isn't right and because of the clothing that I wear. And so the expression of my faith doesn't make me look British. But when I'm abroad, as soon as I open my mouth, there's just that – of course you're you're from Britain. And people are mesmerized by it. You know, I've seen people just become completely hypnotized and trying to work out where it is and how do I fit in and how I can be British. I once went into a coffee shop in San Francisco, placed my order, and the guy just stood there looking at me and he said: ‘Oh, you're from Britain’. And he just wanted me to speak and speak and speak. And I just thought, I just need my sandwich, you know? For him inside his head he didn't see me for my skin colour and my clothing. All he heard was the accent. 

Méli:  Another great story. We’re coming to a close of our time together, Saiyyidah. We've talked about a lot of things. Is there anything that you would like to add, something important you feel we've left out? 

Saiyyidah:  Not really. I mean, the only thing that I wish to just kind of close with is just to say thank you so much for inviting me to have this conversation Méli, because it's just been incredible. I mean, I've had some really good insights, and for me, that's the sign of a rich conversation because you gained new knowledge about yourself and who you are as a person. So, thank you for this. It's it's down to your invitation. 

Méli:  Well, thank you. I'm so pleased that we're now connected and I look forward to additional conversations. 

Saiyyidah:  Me too. Thank you. 

Méli:  OK, you have a good afternoon. 

Saiyyidah:  You too. 

Méli:  OK. Bye, bye.

[Music] 

Méli:  Thank you for listening.  If you’d like to get notified when new episodes are released, hit the SUBSCRIBE button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be directly sent to info@talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options, go to my website – www.talkingwithgodproject.org.  Thank you so much.  Till next time.  Bye bye. 

[Music]