A Gift from God for a Christian – Sue Howard

Episode 17.
Sue clarified her identity as an evangelical Christian during her PhD program (UK), understanding that faith was more important than leadership.  When you live ‘in spirit’, you are an influencer and a leader.  While living a life in Christ and according to the Seven Fruits of the Holy Spirit are key, she is sensitive to the context.  Speech and behavior need to fit the situation, especially in a diverse work setting.  Evangelicalism values discernment, being aware of who might be open to deepening their relationship with God and responding to that inquiry with love and care.     

Highlights:
·       For Christians, faith is both a gift from God and something one can develop. 
·       Loving others despite differences is part of the journey of transformation.  We are all broken. 
·       Evangelicals see a tension between wanting others to be blessed, to have a relationship with God, and people's resistance to that idea. 
 ·       When you live a God-centric life, you are constantly re-fueled by the love and inspiration from God. 

Quotes:
“You can actively seek God, and God asks us to seek for Him.”

“We're all on a journey of transformation. We're all in a process of sanctification. We're all sinners, and we're all saints.”

“There’s a hole in each person that’s God-shaped.” 

“The joy of the Lord is my strength.”   

References (in order mentioned):
Ignatian tradition – https://www.marquette.edu/mission-ministry/explore/what-is-ignatian-spirituality.php

Consolation and Desolation – https://www.ignatianspirituality.com/consolation-and-desolation-2/ 

Holistic Development Model (Map of Meaning) – https://www.themapofmeaning.org

Social Media links for Sue: 

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/suehoward/

Holistic Leadership – www.holisticleadership.co.uk

Christian Development Model S161 – https://grovebooks.co.uk/series/spirituality/

The Vineyard Church – https://www.vineyardchurches.org.uk/

Social Media links for Méli:
Email – info@talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Talking with God Project –  https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org

Transcript on Buzzsprout


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Transcript

Sue Howard – A Gift from God transcript

[Music]

INTRODUCTION

Méli:  Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life – at work, at home, in the community, in good times and in bad.  There is no one-size-fits-all ‘right’ answer, just a way to move forward for you, for here, for now.  I am your host Méli Solomon.  So glad you could join us.  

[Music]

Méli:   This is episode number seventeen and was recorded on the 5th of July 2022.  My guest today is Sue Howard.  Sue is an experienced educator, writer, mentor, leadership and learning coach and facilitator. She completed a PhD at the University of Winchester in 2017, which explored A Christian perspective on enabling spiritual formation in relation to work, particularly through leadership.  Sue then entered the education sector and currently works in her local college as a Team Leader overseeing the personal development of students. Throughout her career in leadership and management development, Sue has been passionate about learning and loves to support individuals in fulfilling their potential.  The focus of Sue’s work has consistently been around enabling inspiration to come to the fore and encouraging people to make a positive contribution through their work roles in various contexts.  She was a pioneer of working with the Holistic Development Model (now called the Map of Meaning) in the UK from 2005 and uses the model to create conversations around values, meaning and purpose.  Sue has worked globally and locally including projects in America, Africa, India, and Europe.  Her academic research, and work within business schools, has led her to contribute to numerous publications including content for online courses, as well as journals, and books. She currently serves on the editorial team of Grove Spirituality Series. Sue lives in Hertfordshire with her husband, has two grown children, and worships with the Vineyard UK church movement.  Links to her social media handles and references are listed in the show notes.  

Méli:   Hello Sue, welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. It is so wonderful to have you on. 

Sue:  Thank you, Méli. 

Méli:   You're welcome. We've spoken many times, Sue, about our respective face and how faith shows up in life, and that will certainly be the topic today. But I think it would be wonderful if you could start us off with a prayer. 

Sue:  I would love to. Lord, we just thank you for this opportunity to speak together about you and about our faith. And Lord, we invite you to speak through us, to show something of who you are. And I pray that your love, your faith, your peace will be known through this podcast. Just pray for blessing on this time, in Jesus’ name. Amen. 

IDENTITY

Méli:   Amen. Thank you for saying that prayer, Sue. I would like to then turn to my normal first question, which is: What is your religious and other identities? 

Sue:  Well, that's an interesting question. I don't really see myself as religious, as such. I I prefer to identify myself as a Christian. I think that Christianity is about Christ bringing us to God, and it's not something that we do. Religion often seems like it's a path that you follow to try to find God, whereas in Christianity, God has already found us, and we just respond to that. 

Méli:  That's a really interesting distinction. One of the other people I interviewed, Yusef, who’s a Sufi Muslim. He talked about practicing his faith and he really liked that term. He liked it because he saw that there was always something to adjust and improve. For him, the word practice, was a very positive thing, but you're saying, you don't even like to use the word religious because being a Christian is an identity of ‘being’ rather than ‘doing’, as my first rabbi would say. Is that right? Am I understanding you correctly? 

Sue:  I I think that's a very good distinction. God describes himself in the Bible as ‘I am’ [Exodus 3:14], and Christians are really made, you know, we are modeling God, we are reflecting the image of God. And so, as a Christian, I am a Christian. I am in Christ. So, the being comes before the doing, you know, we’re made new, we're transformed and I think that the doing flows from the being. So, it's not about a requirement, it's about a response to the overflowing love of God that He gives to us. However, I can understand that in terms of practicing there are habits which help to nurture that ability to be filled-up by God's love. So, if you neglect your relationship with God, you're less likely to be able to be responsive to God in the way that you could be. So, I think it's important to cultivate habits of prayer, habits of worship, habits of fellowship, things that bring us together and to share our faith. 

Méli:  Practice leading to being. 

Sue:  Well, being leading to practice. 

Méli:  Which then leads back to a strengthened being, no? 

FAITH

Sue:  Yes. I think you can be nurtured in faith and you can actively seek God, and God asks us to seek for Him. And in fact, the first scripture that really impacted my life was Matthew 7:7, which says: ‘Ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock and the door and it will be open to you.’ So there is a sense of looking for God, seeking God and we can nurture faith. But faith is, paradoxically also a gift from God. Faith is something we are given when we become Christians. It’s a gift of the Holy Spirit. So, that faith is implanted in us, but we can live by faith. We can act out of that space of faith. This is a very important simple truth. Without faith, it’s impossible to please God, but it is God Himself who gives us the gift of faith. 

Méli:  I’ve heard Christians describe faith as believing without proof.  Do you see it that way?

Sue:  I’m not sure that I would agree with that as a definition. Faith is certainly belief, but faith is for things that you can't see, in the sense that you can't see God with your physical eyes, but you can see God with your, with your spirit. There is a spirit in man, and that's what connects to who God is. So, you can be completely convicted, and there's more surety about what is invisible, knowing who God is than there is in the physical realm. So, I don't think it's about proof, evidence in that way. It's about conviction in the Holy Spirit of God, that God is who He says He is. 

Méli:  And understand, when I ask you these questions, Sue, I'm not asking you to agree with other Christians. It's a point of reference, especially for those of us who are not Christian. I'm a practicing Jew and Christianity, for me, is an ocean. There are so many branches, so many denominations, so many detailed differences of theology and practice. And it's part of why I appreciate speaking with Christians to try to understand, you know: ‘OK, what what is your little slice and what does that mean?’ So, let's talk about that a little more. You described yourself as an evangelical Christian, really prompted by your PhD studies. Did you grow up in that identity or was that something that evolved? 

Sue:  No, certainly I was not an evangelical Christian growing up. It's something that I felt called to become. My journey of faith really was, as a child I did to go to Sunday school. My parents took me to the Church of England, and that was something that happened. And I went to Church of England for primary school. But then I, kind of like many teenagers, sort of went a bit wild, one might say. And then when I was 21, I had a very significant sort of moment of truth when I was very anxious about the nuclear war, which at that time was often – the Cold War was in the news – and I had an inspirational night where I felt God just spoke to me and said: ‘God will not let the world end this way.’ I just felt like God really spoke to me and that's the first time I think I really prayed. From there, my journey began, and I was led into a particular church environment. But even then, the first 25 years of my Christian life, I wouldn't have described myself as an evangelical Christian. And it wasn't until I began my PhD that I, was really forced to identify myself as evangelical. And I have to say, Méli, that I also find the Christianity landscape quite perplexing. I haven't really ever found why there are so many different denominations an easy thing to understand at all. And actually, I'm quite a simple person. I like simple truths. And I think again, that strikes at faith. I think sometimes things can get overcomplicated. I try to just keep my trust in God as the bedrock of my Christian faith and, you know, everything else is knowledge or grace or interesting, as part of my journey of growth. But the simple truths will never change. The basics of who Jesus is and what he did on the Cross. So, I think most Christians will find some common ground in that story. 

LEADERSHIP

Méli:  Is it important to you to find common ground with others? 

Sue:  I think it's important that we grow together in unity and feel a sense of belonging to the body of Christ. That is what I understand from reading the Bible about what the church is. The church is the body of believers, so it's important to grow together with other believers. We all have strengths and weaknesses. We're all on a journey of transformation. We're all in a process of sanctification. We're all sinners, and we're all saints. You can love people and that the journey is to overcome difference and to learn how to love. And sometimes I think that takes humility and acknowledgement that, you know, we are broken as well. 

Méli:  And how does that play out in an interreligious setting for you? 

Sue:  Well, that was really what started me along my PhD journey – trying to understand myself as I learned to think of myself as an evangelical Christian in different contexts, with faith being core to my identity. How was I going to translate that into leadership practice into work settings? I've been on a long journey for over 20 years, really investigating those questions. People have different walks and journeys, so I think it's about appreciating the difference and it's about learning how other people are shaped and wired. But, it's also about working together for wisdom and for love and for truth, to be core aspects of how we collaborate as human beings together. There is a lot of goodwill and a lot of talented, intelligent people. And yet, there's also a lot of things that can be very destructive in organizational life. So, walking with faith through work landscapes requires forgiveness, requires patience, requires discernment, and requires us to love other people, even if they're not like us. 

Méli:  And through this study, it sounds like your identity is an evangelical became clear. Did your sense as a leader shift in this study, in this research? 

Sue:  Well, it's interesting, again, that you should ask that question, because I was interested in leadership when I set out on my PhD and I changed my research question along the way. In the end, I recognized that what was more important to me was faith than leadership. Because I think if you have faith, you then become an influencer, and for me, that's the definition of leadership, is someone who influences the life of another or the lives of others. So, if I'm a person who inhabits faith well, and is able to represent who God is with truth and love and peace and the qualities of gentleness and patience, then I think that I will demonstrate leadership qualities to those around me. So that is where I went, really, with the leadership journey and I think it's about who you are. More than what you do to a certain extent. 

Méli:  And in that increased clarity, did your sense of how visible your faith should be in a work setting – did did that change as well? 

Sue:  I think I find that quite difficult question to answer because I am who I am. But I do work within contexts and it's very important, as I've mentioned you know, to have wisdom in the context which you're in. So, what's appropriate in one setting may not be as appropriate in another setting. So, although I'm the same person pretty much in all settings and try to exceed warmth and a sense of welcome and hospitality and invitation into the space, I do have to be slightly careful about how I represent myself and how who I am impacts the work that I actually do. 

Méli:  And that seems an intelligent way to look at it, to me. I can absolutely say, as a Jew, that I do not welcome being proselytized to. You know, I respect what other people practice but, you know, I'm happy in my faith. I'm really not really not interested in being told that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ, and I'm damned, and, you know, all of that, whatever the line is, is is really not welcome. So, I I appreciate what you're saying and I, and I'm frankly glad to hear it. I wanted to circle back to a few words you said a moment ago because I'm interested in how you live this. 

Sue:  Can I just say about the proselytization? There are different strands of being a Christian in the work environment. Proselytizing is something that people might assume Christians will do, but that isn't the only way to be a Christian in the workplace. It requires discernment – who you speak to, but certainly the sense of pushing your beliefs on people who are not ready to inquire into them is not wise. So, I wouldn't be an advocate for proselytizing in that way to work colleagues, certainly, or anyone really who's not welcoming it. I think it's about questions, and if somebody is interested, they will inquire or they will notice, and they might ask you something about what you believe and then you can speak because there's been an invitation. So that's how I approach things. 

Méli:  Yeah, fair enough. And frankly by that description, Sue, I think that goes for all of us, whatever we're doing, whatever we're believing within or outside of religion. You know, you hear somebody does yoga and you think: ‘Oh, I haven't tried that yet. Can you tell me something about that?’ It's the same same idea, right? 

Sue:  So, in the landscape of evangelical Christianity, there is a sense of people being lost, i.e. of people not really knowing who God is, not really being in full relationship with God. And that is the paradox, I think, of being evangelical – in that you can't keep what you know to yourself, in the sense that you want other people to be blessed. But one of the hardest things, and this did emerge in my PhD, is the sense of resistance to God. So, in the Ignatian tradition, people talk about ‘consolation’ and ‘desolation’. People are either moving towards God or being consoled by God, or they're moving away from God, and I don't think it's really very easy to sit on the fence. I think you are in a journey towards or away from. And so I think for the discernment process, and evangelicals, it's about connecting with those people who might be searching for God or in need of God, even if they don't recognize that, but God is talking to them and drawing them, and you might be a vehicle to help engage them in that conversation or to just go a little bit further, plant a seed or water the seed or just something that's already started for them on their journey. 

Méli:  Again, I appreciate that distinction, but this this business about discerning that someone is open. You're talking about a journey to or away from God, and maybe you are in a position to assist someone. Clearly, you're interested in helping them move towards God, but the nature of that journey and destination is quite particular for you. And I'm wondering if, when you discern that someone is open to moving another step on their journey, hopefully towards God, is it necessarily towards Christianity, towards evangelicalism? Or, what if someone says: ‘Yes, I want to become closer to God, and I I feel that in Hinduism.’ Would you say: ‘Oh, wonderful, great.’ What would you say to that person? 

Sue:  When I was first setting up my PhD, I talked a lot about spirituality, and I encountered many different people on many different journeys who would have different paths. And I think that I have found it difficult, actually, as an evangelical Christian, to accept this. I do, however, see people as made in the image of God. So, I would love that person and I might engage in a conversation with them that would be something that would be a mutual reciprocal exchange. And I have been in so many different communities. I've been to different countries, I've been to different faiths. I have spent time with lots of people who have different backgrounds or different paths. But what I found is that to be true to myself, I think my best ability, my my calling really is to work with people who are interested in becoming Christians, who want to know more about Christianity and who accept that Jesus is the Son of God. And so, I I have done more work with people who are there. But even in that place, there’s difference. But it's not – we're not all on the same understanding, even though we might all call ourselves Christian, so I have found it quite challenging at times. But again, I go back to what I said about the simple faith and trust in God. That is my direction. I suppose some people would write about it, as you know, called it True North. I kind of turn to the same direction and people are either attracted to work with me or they're not. So, the people that are I work with, and the people that aren't, I just let go. I don't see it as my responsibility to, you know, convert people or any of that sort of thing. It's my responsibility to speak truth in love to those around me and see who wants to know more, or who's ready to listen or, who wants to investigate and be curious. 

RESISTANCE TO GOD

Méli:  OK. And again, I appreciate that distinction. In preparing for our conversation this morning, Sue, I've been thinking a lot about this business of speaking of religion in a somewhat more public venue and how how explosive that can be, how difficult that can be. And I found myself wondering: Why is it that speaking of one’s religious beliefs, religious trajectory, is so different in a broader context than speaking of your professional trajectory, or that you've lived abroad, or that you have a PhD, or you're married, or you know, any of the other aspects of one's life. It does seem to be a volatile issue. So that's just an open question I've been thinking about. 

Sue:  I appreciate that question and I think it's because Scripture says, you know, it's it's about, ‘principalities and powers’. When we are talking about the spiritual realm, there is really a spiritual battle going on for humanity. And I mentioned before, resistance. You don't have so many grand narratives now. That is something that has been rejected, and truth has become relative. Religious narratives are speaking of truth being not relative, more – not certain as such, but particular. There are particular truths. So one thing about the Bible is that it does talk about sin, sin being anything that separates you from God. And people don't necessarily want God in their life, because they don't really know what God is, how God is blessing them. So, there's many misunderstandings about the nature of God, which is unfortunate. But I think it's also a sense of understanding what freedom really is. The Bible talks about freedom being in Christ. And there's a sense of humility there in accepting this free gift. And we do often speak about it as submission, surrender, yielded-ness, obedience to the call of God. And it is challenging to the to the human self at times because we want to have what we want. We don't necessarily know what's best for us. And I think God knows us intimately, so the journey of faith is about going deeper into God and having a greater sense of awareness of how God wants to bless us through his Holy Spirit and to be transformed in our own nature so that we we move away from thinking our own self-pursuit thoughts, and more about our God-centric. We're more God-centric. We begin to desire what God desires, and we begin to want to inhabit holiness, to be inhabited by God, and He says He makes his home in us. So, we need to make space for God to make his home in us and sometimes we've unlocked a few rooms, but maybe not those rooms at the back, which we've got quite securely under lock and key. So, it's a journey of revelation. It's a journey of understanding. It's a journey of grace and knowledge. We grow in grace and knowledge, but there's one scripture that I have found to be really insightful in understanding the future path. So John, 17:3 says: ‘Now this is eternal life, that they may know you. The only true God, and Jesus Christ, who you have sent’. When I first really understood that scripture, I recognized that scripture, that eternal life is about knowing God. The opportunity on earth, every human being, is to get started in coming to know God. So, you can step in, you can say ‘yes’ to the invitation and then see what happens. But some people don't even know they've been offered an invitation, and some people may have had invitation and decided they're not ready to walk towards towards God, so, there are – you know, that's going back to the discernment. 

A GOD-CENTRIC LIFE

Méli:  You've just mentioned so many threads that I'd like to pick up on. One term you mentioned was being God-centric. And you also said – talked about holiness, so I'd like to hear a little more about those two terms. What does it mean to be God-centric for you? 

Sue:  This goes back to again my PhD. Looking at – I used the Holistic Development Model which was developed by another PhD, a person in New Zealand, and I looked at that, explored it as a Christian development model, but in the center is inspiration. And so for me I have in my mind the Holistic Development Model, which can be found on my website or also on the Map of Meaning. It's a centrifugal, holistic look at life. But, if the center of your life is God-focused, you're drawing in and you're breathing out. It's a it's a movement of being refueled. So it's turning towards God who inspires. It’s about loving God with all your heart, mind and soul and loving other people with that love that God has given to us. Without God refueling us, we wouldn't have the capacity to love other people in the way that God would like us to love other people. We just don't have that capacity because we get irritable, grumpy, we are opinionated, we dislike people, we have conflict. There's a sense of reality bounding around the outside. So we – there's a movement always between inspiration and reality, but reality through John 17 verse three, is also about the spiritual reality that God is real, present fully for every single individual who wants to receive His grace and receive forgiveness. God is not biased. He's constantly offering an invitation to everybody who would like to say ‘yes’ to God. So that's what I mean. God-centric is the central gathering-place, the central presence, the central – that God is love, God is fully available to us, we have the capacity to be filled with the love of God, if we want to. 

Méli:  And it sounds like it also means it's the source of your inspiration and the source of your strength and grace. 

Sue:  Yes, totally. 

Méli:  In another conversation, you've spoken of the Nine Fruits of the Holy Spirit: Love, joy, patience, kindness, peace, faithfulness, gentleness, goodness, and self-control. I'm interested in how these play-out in your life. Is there a ranking for you? Are there practical applications of these terms, 'cause they’re certainly, you know, there's no denying these are these are all lovely things. I think you can't kind of argue with how nice these these ideas are, but I'm wondering how they show up in your life. 

Sue:  The Holy Spirit gives gifts and these are some of the gifts. But the Holy Spirit gives to people who are following Jesus, who were seeking the Holy Spirit. I do feel at certain times that I have experienced God’s joy, even in trials, in the midst of difficult situations. And in fact, sometimes it's in the most difficult situations that I experience the most peace and the most joy, because I'm calling on God more strongly, maybe even with a sense of desperation and I'm also having other people pray for me. And at times when there's intercessory prayer or there's a trial situation or some pain or difficulty, that reassurance, the peace of God which passes all understanding is something that you can't really explain to anybody unless you experience it. But I have experienced the peace of God, and I know that things are going to be OK. The joy of the Lord is my strength. It's that joy, joy that was set before Jesus. He endured the Cross for the joy that was set before him. And that joy is an unspeakable joy. It bubbles up and wells up and can catch you unawares. There's nothing else like joy in the Holy Spirit. It's an amazing quality. I I would like to have that more in my life, but I have at least experienced, tasted that joy. Love, again, is a filling and giving out. Sometimes when I I'm in community. The church, for example in prayer ministry or in a Connect Group, and I'm speaking about God. I get such an overflow of love in that place for another person. That's not me, it's something God is giving me at that moment. The other Fruits of Spirit – long-suffering, I mean tolerance, patience, perseverance, those qualities – definitely I draw on when I'm feeling maybe something's unfair, or people are treating me, you know, in a way that I don't think is appropriately right for who I am. They may not know who I am. So, long-suffering – you just have to bear with one another. We know that people are broken, and perseverance is also about the long-haul journey. You keep going with God, even though you can't necessarily see how things are going to work out. You can trust in that space that God is there. And the others, I mean – kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. They are all things that I focus on more at different times or another. I do really think it's important to practice kindness when you talk about practicing faith. That's something that we can all do more of every day. Be kind to others. Love our neighbor as ourselves. Goodness – again, you know, do good to others around you. Don't do evil. Do good. If you can do something nice for somebody, do that. Why would you not, you know, be good and kind to other people? Faithfulness – that is about faithfulness to God, if He invites you to do something. God has invited me for last eight years to run a Home Group. Lord knows that I have been faithful to that ask in my life. Gentleness and self-control – perhaps self-control is my least inhabited Fruit. I try, but my self-control can sometimes be slightly lacking. That goes back to the habits of prayer. Gentleness – ‘Let your gentleness be evident to all.’ That is a quality you can't fabricate. People have said to me: ‘You're very warm’. I do try not to be harsh. I do try to listen. Don't always do it perfectly. I do try to be open to another person. I try to recognize when I'm getting angry and take steps to avoid speaking something I might later regret. So, I think in various different ways more or less, you know, they're all really qualities that you can turn back to, and it's good for self-reflection. How much of these do I possess, if any? I mean, people know you buy your Fruits. If you don't have any, you could question whether or not your spiritual life is actually very healthy. 

Méli:  Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting. In hearing you talk about these different qualities, what it brings to mind is a Jewish practice of reflection called Mussar. It's an ancient practice of focusing on a character trait – patience, humility. There are 13 core, but there are many others besides. I hear echoes of that and having gone through three rounds of of being in a Mussar practice, I can appreciate how valuable focusing on character traits is in terms of deepening one's spiritual life, and simply being a better person. 

Sue:  Well, at the end of the day, having a spiritual life, having ‘life in spirit’, will lead to blessing, for yourself and for those around you. It's not a selfish act to pursue God. It's an act of self-care that leads to love – loving God, loving yourself and loving other people. So, I think any focus on examining your character in light of what God says to you to look at, is going to be helpful. Self-examination is a good starting point, a good place to explore the spiritual life. And if you're actually asking God to help you in this process, then He will always be responsive.  He will always speak. He will always show up. He will always show you the way. He will show you something about yourself, something about other people that you can learn and grow from. Personal development and growth in life and spiritual development, spiritual formation – we are invited onto a journey of adventure to grow as people. Certainly where we end up in life shouldn't be where we began, particularly. Hopefully we would have learned something. I think it's really sad when people give-up or opt-out. I would say one thing that, you know, in today's world, there's massive amounts of mental health, difficulties for people. People are struggling. And I think that's because there's a pervasive sense of hopelessness. If people have a sense of hopelessness and despair, there is a way to be filled with hope. There is a way to be filled with encouragement. If you haven't tried out a spiritual path, then, that is a big tick for finding a way to fill the hole. There's there's a hole in each person that's God-shaped. And wherever you start in the spiritual life, if you're absolutely earnestly, genuinely looking for God, He will find you. He's already there. It's like the prodigal son. I don't know if you're familiar with the parable of the Prodigal Son, but the father rushes to the child who has miss-spent their wealth, his wealth in fact, on wasting things, and has run out of everything. And he returns home, hoping to be a servant. The father just welcomes him with open arms, kills the fatted calf, put a ring on his finger and rejoices and celebrates, and and that's the father's love. He has a heart for every human being. He longs to embrace us, to wrap us in His arms and invite us into His family and be at home with Him. There's nothing not to like about that, and I think, you know, where religion or institutions or denominations or politics or, all of that gets in the way of who God is, then that's what we need to junk out of our lives. But the simple relationship with God is, you know, a blessing. And having said that, it is important to find community because we need each other. We're we're all different, and I have found through my Connect Group, the different gifts that people have really open up a better understanding of how who God is I can learn from how God speaks to other people, how he speaks through other people. And that has helped me to relax and allow myself to trust more in who God is, and I think that was one of the findings of my PhD is that I just really learn how vast God's grace and mercy is. It's way beyond the little box I had put it into. In my understanding of what I have to do – all these things before I'm right with God. No, I've been made right with God. And that can't be taken away from me. So, everything else is icing on the cake, really. 

ENDING

Méli:  Those are rich words and I really appreciate you sharing them with me and with the audience. So, thank you, Sue. 

Sue:  It's been a pleasure. I'm not sure I have said the things that I thought I might have said, but as we invited a prayer at the beginning, I just pray on everyone listening now that this podcast is a blessing to somebody out there, who may wish to inquire of God as to who he is as a result. And on that note, I say thank you and I wish you a good evening. 

Sue:  Thank you, Méli. Bless you. Thank you. 

Méli:  Thank you. OK. Bye bye.

ENDING

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Méli:  Thank you for listening.  If you’d like to get notified when new episodes are released, hit the subscribe button. Questions and comments are welcome and can be sent to info@talkingwithgodproject.org.  A link is in the show notes. Transcripts are available a few weeks after airing. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project.  For more information about that research, including workshop and presentation options, go to my website – www.talkingwithgodproject.org.  Thank you so much.  Till next time.  Bye bye. 

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